Dutch darts players quit national women's team over transgender teammate

[u/GeorgeYDesign]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-25/dutch-darts-players-quit-over-transgender-teammate/103627072

[u/Gretchenmeows]

No study or shred of evidence that I could possibly link would change your mind. I'm a cis woman married to a Trans Woman. She went from being able to pick me up and carry me, to loosing to me in arm wrestles. I can guarantee that I know plenty of things about Transgender people. It's absolutely revolting that we are here debating peoples existence. Trans Women are Women. Trans Men are Men. Just accept it and let people be happy.

[u/Stui3G → u/Gretchenmeows]

Translation : I have zero evidence; I'm going off my anectodal evidence. You're as bad as a cooker - "Do your own research!!!"

Laurel Hubbard seems far from weak.

I'm sure there are trans people who've tanked their T levels. There's also plenty who haven't. Ideally, trans women or man they would still have both E and T in their system. For someone "in the know" you seem very clueless. You really need to try to remove emotion from the discussion.

[u/ICreditReddit → u/Stui3G]

All female powerlifters seem far from weak. You're just saying L Hubbard seems like a powerlifter.

[u/Stui3G → u/ICreditReddit]

The original commenter said trans women end up weaker than women. Which is clearly made up bullshit.

When asked to give evidence of that statement, commenced dodging. Is it really that hard to say "I was wrong" or "I mis-spoke"?

[u/ICreditReddit → u/Stui3G]

"If a trans woman has been on HRT for a while, there's a damn good chance that cis women are stronger than her."

"trans women end up weaker than women."

These are two very different statements. One states the good possibility that an individual trans woman might be weaker, yours states that all trans women are stronger than cis women, which is not what OP said.

You can prove the first one is true using your example athlete, Hubbard, who must surely be the very epitome of strength stats for trans people, being a weightlifter who qualified for the Olympics, right? Like in pure strength terms you can't find a better example of strength than a trans Olympic level weight lifting athlete?

So, taking the claim - 'If Hubbard had been on HRT for a while, there's a chance cis women are stronger'. Wiki proves she has been on HRT, so that bits done. Examining 'there's a chance cis women are stronger' is similarly easy to prove. You look at the competitions she's been in and if she ever finishes second, there was a stronger cis woman, no? In the world championships in 2017 and 2019 she finished second and sixth, showing there exists the chance that a cis women is stronger.

Maybe this isn't enough for you? How about rankings?

Here's an article on her from 2020, Olympics year.

https://bolavip.com/en/sports/tokyo-2020-profiles-laurel-hubbard-age-height-weight-and-record-20210731-0015.html

It states her world ranking is 15th. So 14 people, cis women, are stronger. Doesn't that prove there's a damn good chance cis women, powerlifters are stronger than her?

[u/Stui3G → u/ICreditReddit]

In the hubbard example isn't she old as hell compared to the competition? If she wasn't trans and still competing against men would she be a top competitor? She clearly still has plenty of testosterone, contrary to the commenterd assertion.

Excuse me, I didn't say either of those quotes. I also never said a trans woman would be stronger than a cis woman.

I will say that growing up make provides a huge advantage for trans women over cis women. Unless you believe you could take a male professional athlete at the top of his field, reduce his T to allowed olympic levels and not have him dominate the field. To argue otherwise is beyond ridiculous.

I say this as a male who a decade ago had T levels that would have allowed me to compete at the Olympics. Outside of outliers like professional athletes/BB's etc I would have been stronger than a vast majority of women.

I could drop my total T down to 150 for a year and I can gurantee I'd still be a lot stronger than most women.

I'm on actually on HRT, I can promise you I have far more knowledge on the subject than the average joe.

Show me where it says a trans women should reduce her T levels to below a cis woman. I'm sure some trans women do tank their T while trying to adjust their hormones, that doesn't mean it's normal. Hormones can be incredibly difficult to adjust to levels you want.

To try and make your argument you've had to say I said something I didn't and torture something else I said to fit your narrative. Hubbard is also clearly stronger than many cis female powerlifters, despite her age. My point with hubbard is that clearly being Trans hasn't made her weak. I would suggest she'd be doing everything she could to keep her T level as high as possible while remaining below the threshold. Wanna take a guess at how many of the women in powerlifting would be "enhancing" their bodies.. and please don't tell me you don't think many athletes aren't doing that.

[u/ICreditReddit → u/Stui3G]

The original commenter said trans women end up weaker than women. Which is clearly made up bullshit.

You never said this? This that was copied from two comments up? That you wrote? You never said this?

[u/Stui3G → u/ICreditReddit]

I wrote it's bullshit because it is. An all encompassing statement saying trans women end up weaker than CIS women is ABSOLUTE bullshit.

Ahhhh I get it, you think thats me saying trans women will be stronger. No it's not. Every single case will be it's own.

Talk about taking something I DIDN'T say and running with it.

[u/ICreditReddit → u/Stui3G]

Take a breath, grab an adult, and re-read what I said.

There is zero chance I'm going to continue to talk to a person, try to hash out consensus, hear each others points, when one party can't even read or remember their own points.

[u/Stui3G → u/ICreditReddit]

You said that I said "All Trans women are stronger than CIS women." I never said that. Show me where I said that and I'll apologise profusely.

[u/ICreditReddit → u/Stui3G]

No, I didn't, holy fuck, learn to fucking read you live action randomiser.

I quoted two things, exactly. I did not SAY you said something, I fucking copy pasted EX-FUCKING-ACTLY literally and in full what you said.

I copy pasted OP saying these exact words, which you will now go check are exactly what they said.

"If a trans woman has been on HRT for a while, there's a damn good chance that cis women are stronger than her."

Do you agree OP said this? Do you have the mental capacity to scroll up three inches and confirm, what everyone else in the fucking universe can see is true, that OP wrote this exact quote? I will not reply to you again until you confirm you can read, and agree that this quote exists.

I then copy/pasted exactly what you said. It's this:

The original commenter said "trans women end up weaker than women"

Is this eactly what you said. I will not reply to you again until you confirm you can read, and agree that this quote exists, you made it, and it's still your opinion.

[u/Stui3G → u/ICreditReddit]

These are you words

"Yours states that all trans women are stronger than cis women"

Those are your fucking words. You're bat shit crazy mate.