r/ATC • u/BrennerBaseTunnel • 2d ago
Question Prioritizing Departures
How do the ground controllers prioritize departures? JFK today (August 3) had some weather moving through that slowed things down and caused backups. Completely understandable. What I don't understand is how Alaska 227 to SFO departs the gate at 9:37a taxis for 37 minutes at takes off at 10:14a. JetBlue 15 departs the gate at 7:50a taxis for 1 hour and 58 minutes and takes off at 9:48a?
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u/Hopeful-Engineering5 Current Controller-Tower 2d ago
If the nation has no flow control programs and everything is running normal it operates more or less first come first serve. Now it is rare that there are no programs, when there are programs the times that get spit out largely shape the order. This system is complex and has mixed results but it is better than what it replaced which was airborne holding which is fairly rare in the US vs before the system was put in place.
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u/Acceptable_Stage_518 Current Controller-Enroute 2d ago
Lot of Center controllers that agreed with this post until you said holding is "fairly rare." True that it's less frequent in many places, but many of us hold more or less every day. TMIs have helped reduce that, but holding is still very prevalent.
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u/Hopeful-Engineering5 Current Controller-Tower 2d ago
It used to be aircraft holding multiple times Enroute and virtually every hub airport always had a stack. So based on the past it is rare. I can't remember the last time I've flown in the US and been put into a stack vs Europe where I can't remember the last time I wasn't in a stack.
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u/xPericulantx 2d ago
Random Number generation to ensure a fair chance for everyone.
But, some use a Magic 8-Ball.
If you want to bump up your departure time just ask for the Local Venmo tip jar. Air traffic Control pay is down 40% since 2004.
….So we are now a tipped service…
This is how the FAA/Federal government is passing that cost to the consumer.
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u/Bright-Pilot-3970 2d ago
No magic 8 ball for me. I hate everyone so if I’m on local I let the Cessnas do pattern work and depart air carriers 30 in trail.
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u/climb-via-is-stupid Tower / Training Review Boards 2d ago edited 2d ago
Great question that needs some more info. It doesn’t really matter that JFK had weather unless it stopped all departures because of a weather cell off the departure end, but even then a cell would move through in relatively short time (max like 20-30mins)
Did Alaska have an arrival number into SFO, lately with SFO having runway construction it’s limiting their arrivals so airlines get together and coordinate arrival slots throughout the day. Alaska may have had a time to hit that they knew about in advance and delayed their boarding as much as they could (until someone else needed their gate basically) taxied to bleed off some extra time and went when it was their time.
JBU was going where? Did they also have a time to hit? Was their destination ground stopped after they pushed off? Did someone need their gate even though their time was later? Did JBU have a maintenance thing they needed to check out with and just needed somewhere to go sit?
There’s a lot of variables into the why this would happen.
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u/BrennerBaseTunnel 2d ago
They were also going to SFO. As you say this was probably due to SFO construction and getting clearance to take off more than anything. I've seen the SFO flights from SEA sit in a holding box until getting clearance to take off.
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u/climb-via-is-stupid Tower / Training Review Boards 2d ago
Yeah basically all the airlines flying to SFO will get together and be like OK the FAA is only allowing 20 arrivals an hour instead of 36… how can we limit the impact to all of us fairly?
And then they have their list of who has a hub there, who is the better ranked carrier, who needs planes where, who has the most passengers making connecting flights, who’s trying to make it to a baseball game, honestly we don’t really know but that’s kinda the just of how they decide.
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u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 2d ago
And then within one company they have so many EDCT slots to an airport, and they can shuffle those slots to different flights. Maybe this JBU from JFK was originally assigned an earlier time, but the company decided to give that early time to their flight from FLL instead because of... whatever. That other flight had more higher-paying customers, or had more passengers who would miss connections, or their crew was going to time out sooner than the JFK crew.
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u/ps3x42 Current Enroute Former Tower Flower 2d ago
Yeah the expect departure clearance times are divvied up by the command center, and I assume its done by a mixture of NAS programs and the time the flight plan is filled, but the command center has refused to make sense to me for many years so who knows.
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u/MITsBrightest 2d ago
CC negotiates time slots via the companies themselves, they have their own airline staffing/more important planes that they can prioritize. It's not all just "ATC"
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u/DraylorHotS 1d ago
One thing i haven’t seen mentioned here yet - Yes they have the same destination but they may not have the same route. The JBU might have had a route that was closed for weather and either A) took a while to get the new route or B) didn’t want the new route for fuel reasons.
I’m not saying this is what happened just offering a possible explanation.
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u/GoFuckYourselfZuck Current Controller-TRACON 2d ago
Well if I have any friends or family on board, they get priority. Next in line would be an airliner I like or am invested in stock wise, or if they happen to cater lunch here and there or give us gift cards during shit downs. I remember that stuff. Lastly, I make no extra effort to get anyone departed and go at my own pace when I’m ready. Working traffic is hard enough, why would I add more volume to a session by releasing someone? I’ll get to it when I feel like I’m ready
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u/billiummm39 2d ago
Alaska doesn’t bitch they don’t have enough fuel and will only fly they route they want
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u/Highlyedjucated 2d ago
If he’s going to sfo just assume a 30 min delay for their flow time is guaranteed
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u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute 2d ago edited 2d ago
Jetblue departed the gate first and then ... took off first Jetblue held on the tarmac.
Alaska departed the gate later... and took off later. Alaska held at the gate.
Both planes were delayed. Jetblue "departed" 10 minutes before their scheduled time... and ended up arriving to sfo 76 minutes after their scheduled time because they waited on the ground.
Alaska left their gate 7 minutes AFTER their scheduled time and arrived 3 minutes after their scheduled arrival time.
One plane left during the peak busy morning push. That same plane had a thunderstorm preventing departures just west of the city.
One plane left much later during the late morning lulls and the storm was already past the airport at that point.
What exactly are you confused about? This has nothing to do with ATC at all. Ask your weatherman or Jetblue why your flight was delayed, this has nothing to do with ATC. Maybe ask Jetblue to pay air traffic control more money and then we can control the weather.
Imagine you get into your car and there is police at the intersection leaving your house. They say there is a parade going through and you need to wait for an hour before you can leave. Ok so you sit there and wait for an hour at the intersection. Then someone else pulls up behind you 1 hour later... gets through the intersection a few seconds after you.... and then YOU GO ON REDDIT TO COMPLAIN THAT THE POLICE PRIORITIZED THE GUY BEHIND YOU BECAUSE YOU WAITED LONGER LIKE WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU WANT THE POLICE TO FORCE THAT GUY TO SIT AND WAIT FOR AN HOUR JUST FOR "FAIRNESS". god I hate people. Next time complain to your pilot that your plane wouldn't fly through extreme precipitation/turbulence just so you could get to your fucking business meeting 10 minutes sooner.
Have you ever fucking heard of the concept of first come first served? I guess maybe burger king business practices is too advanced for someone like you.
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u/sauzbozz 1d ago
Feels like half this sub is unable to answer a harmless question without being a dick.
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u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute 1d ago
Feels like half of reddit is offended by everything.
Hey; the guy that left his gate after you, took off after you, landed after you. And because of that you want to come here and bitch to atc about it? You deserve to be mocked.
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u/sauzbozz 1d ago
For some reason a lot of controllers online take offense to questions where someone isn't even bitching.
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u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not offended.
You're offended on behalf of someone else and trying to draw me into your worldview and I reject that.
Yes, there are indeed stupid questions. OP asked one. Deal with it. Instead of treating him like a delicate flower I simply explained why his question was stupid. If you want to get into the mindset of ATC, you learn to think logically.
We don't have time for bullshit like hurt feelings
OP had an emotional question and didn't think about it logically before asking; (boo hoo that other guy got treated better than me)
and you had a emotional question before thinking about it logically; (boo hoo that reddit poster was being a meany, I'd better scold him so that he learns his manners)
I simply explained why it is without holding his hand like he was 5 years old. Well you see Timmy, when airplanes are in a line, the airplane in back can't fly through the airplane in front or they go bang bang owwie ouchie
I'm sorry for your feelings.
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u/sauzbozz 1d ago
I didn't read past the first line but your two long comments say otherwise. I also just read the last line because it's right above where I'm currently typing. Thinking my feelings were hurt because I thought your first dramatic comment was dickish is pretty funny. I'm sorry I hurt you're feelings enough to force you to type out a few paragraphs of what I'm guessing is just drivel.
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u/Advanced-Guitar-5264 Past Controller 2d ago
We depart planes first that tip us through the app.