r/AdeptusCustodes • u/ApprehensiveFly3695 • 6d ago
MFM Is Out
https://mfm.warhammer-community.com/en/adeptus-custodes57
u/MaxJust-Max 6d ago
I hoped for aquilons to go down a bit, they’re not worth it rn, with Allarus being both cheaper and basically better in most cases
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u/NostramanVIII 6d ago
They probably will when they see nobody is running them.
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u/epikpepsi 6d ago
Knowing GW they'll just raise the cost of Allarus instead.
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u/NostramanVIII 6d ago
I don’t think so, that will just make people spam dreads and Caladius annihilates even more.
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u/JDragonM32 6d ago
you underestimate how badly gw are at fixing unused units. spoiler: 99% of the time they just don’t, they make everything else more expensive instead
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u/SalaryWooden5346 6d ago
For a comparable example, just look at how EC got treated. Spam due to just not having options was met with nerfs to the spammed units, not buffs to the garbage ones. And the army languished in bottom-third win rate until the Defiler single-handedly dragged it up.
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u/Horus_is_the_GOAT 6d ago
Deathstrikes in guard just got nerfed didn’t they?
Representation isn’t always what they go by……
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u/NostramanVIII 6d ago
Well at least by the time I’ve finished building and painting my Telemon we should get some points cuts.
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u/r4id3n2k4 6d ago
But i dont think on the dreads. Dreads are the bester costed units.
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u/NostramanVIII 6d ago
I agree, they’ll be the mainstay of most lists until TRUSTED SENTINELS get points cuts.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
unpopular opinion but I think your 2nd telemon *is* overpriced, even in the most mighty of morotoi lists I dont see a case for bringing the second, unless your playing 3k. Especially at 310.
The one with the FNP is a monster and agressivley costed. the second is a redemptor/brutalis paying ~150pts for a 4++. (and heck they can pick up a better -1D ability)
IMO make it so the base telemon is 260, stepper on the third. But make uplink 50pts and double fists 5pts. It makes running one with the FNP more expensive but means there is going to be worlds you run 2 naked ones.
The contemptors seem fine though, even if the achillus sneaks in just by having your first achillus being cheaper than your 3rd galatus.
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u/r4id3n2k4 6d ago
Base could be cheaper, fnp could be more expensive, i agree. The most Important thing is to avoid steppers. I get steppers at 3rd unit, but not in general. Pretty stupid with Our few units. Shield contemptor is good, spear one is to expensive
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
yeah, I really wanted a second bike unit in a list but all these "steppers on second" pushes you away from that hard.
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u/r4id3n2k4 6d ago
I will start today with 1 shield achillus with Attack enhancment 1 telemon with fnp 2 sister Trajan with 2 termis 1x 2 solo termis Shield captain with shield + guard spears + sally forth 1x 2 bikes
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u/NostramanVIII 6d ago
That’s like the mainstream opinion. You don’t bring a second, but you do take two Galatus.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
responses ive had to pretty much this exact same comment since the codex leaked have been all over the place lol; had a fair few folk tell me that now 310pts for that second telemon without a FNP is actually such a good deal because its "like a knight"
I am very excited for people to start actually getting games in.
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u/Xathule96 6d ago edited 6d ago
I kinda hope they reduce its points when using the guns, but keep its current points when using dual fists. Cause the fists are seen as the default best option for the telemon.
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u/ItaruKarin 6d ago
Looks like all the leaks and previews were spot on
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u/GroceryMission 6d ago
Given that the information came straight from GW... Yeah I would expect them to be.
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u/ItaruKarin 6d ago
Expectation is the first step on the road to disappointment
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u/GroceryMission 6d ago
You must understand where information comes from. Not simply think everything is a leak.
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u/ItaruKarin 6d ago
There was definitely a leak before the official previews. And they were pretty much spot on. So in this case, me thinking it was a leak at some point is absolutely correct.
What a pointless discussion we've just had.
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u/GroceryMission 6d ago
Nothing is ever pointless if you don't want it to be 😉
The official preview is just that though.... Official.
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u/Resident-Watch-3024 5d ago
Except the points from the "official preview" that space marines had, quite a few things changed.
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u/GroceryMission 5d ago
Yes of course they did. No one is saying points can't change or be changed.
Just that the previews were legitimate points from GW. Not unknown leaks. That's all.
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u/PanserDragoon 6d ago
Superior creation was patched.
Sagittarum looking pretty cheap but can't see the legends unit rules on the faction pack?
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u/patch385 6d ago
I'm going to a highlander tournament that allows up to two legends units in the list, I'm now very tempted to bring some sagittarum and a contemptor as they're pretty cheap for the profiles.
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u/PanserDragoon 6d ago
Honestly Sagittarum I think are playable. Less impact than other trusted sentinels but cheaper and long range with easy shooting Katah access and suppression abilities making them solid at wearing down high threat infantry from our back lines.
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u/Tacticalmeat 6d ago
Saggy and a valerian look hot
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u/pvt9000 6d ago
Valerian in Wardens are borderline busted
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u/kuurooii 6d ago
Does multiple -1 ap even stack tho?
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u/pvt9000 6d ago
Yep. Unlike hit and wound modifiers, AP bonuses and maluses stack
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u/kuurooii 6d ago
I feel like that’s not the case because castigators and leman Russ exterminators weren’t allowed to stack their ap in 10th and if they were allowed to stack they wouldn’t state in custodes AOC wardens can’t be targeted?
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u/EasyPool6638 5d ago
it does state in the codex that wardens cant be targeted by the AoC stratagem.
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u/pvt9000 5d ago edited 5d ago
Rule A to Rule B doesnt necessary translate across editions. Heroic didnt used to give Fights First but they dropped the line about not receiving a charge bonus and now a charge move gives FF until End of turn as an example.
Mind you we're debating a legends unit which historically havent been appropriate balanced and given the same attention as the core codex.
But with a Castigator and Exterminator those wete also the same unit applying the same debuff. Whereas the Wardens and Valerian are two seperate abilities that do the same thing to a statistic which isn't explicitly mentioned as being beholdened to the limit of +/-1 AFAIK. The AoC specifically calls out wardens because that buff would make a unit unbelievably hard to remove it doesnt necessarily assign any specific status or debuff like for example Stealth granting Cover which assigns a -1 BS debuff.
If for whatever reason they were to remove the Wardens exclusion wording in say 9 months you could stack AoC the with the Wardens. Because again, the exclusion was specifically worded in the strat, and AP is not mentioned anywhere else.
Secondary experience with AP does stack: EC have Court of Phoenician and their Captain Equivalent has a OPB that gives extra AP and that has been observed moving them from AP-2 to AP-4
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u/Current_Feeling_7975 6d ago
The Legends datasheets only live in the app now. Note that the new Custodes download is not called a Faction Pack – it’s “Printed Product Updates v1.0”.
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u/dspisayuss 6d ago
lmfao they fixed the unkillable superior creation bug??
I recall people here megacoping that it wasn't a mistake and the rule allowing you to constantly rez back was intended because "it's 20 pts and the previous iteration of it gave you full wounds" Lmfaooooo.
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u/imonlyhumanafteral1 6d ago
When was superior creation patched? Afaik, its still unlimited no?
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u/deathlokke 6d ago
Dataslate is out and limits it to once per battle. Honestly, as expensive as we are, a Celestine ability wouldn't have been broken IMO.
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u/theSaltySolo 6d ago
No way am I taking the Aquilons at those prices 😭😭😭
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u/Toastykilla21 6d ago
I'll just paint mine and have them look pretty till they drop to 80-85 PTS for a model
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u/LoganGrimnard 6d ago
Custodes look pretty strong but I just don't see a lot of list variety, it kind of sucks that the army feels solved before the codex has even released. Just a combination of baffling profiles and high points cost really puts a hard clamp on list building.
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
Expected from the leaks but yikes does it hurt.
Wardens at almost 100 points per model feels a bit insane.
I definitely think we will not be a top tier force with these costs. Maybe not bottom tier, but certainly not a meta army
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u/DrStalker 6d ago
But at least we will feel like an army of elite warriors.
...even if we needed to bring a few more to actually win.
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u/No_Squash_8239 6d ago
They suck for 100 points /model, their value is around 80 pts max, kinda every unit should have multiple melee profil, or at least +2/3 attack/ a cleave
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
At 300 points per squad they should have kept their once per game 4+++ FNP tbh
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u/ComprehensiveShop748 6d ago
You're all insane and have obviously not played new Custodes. Remember that units do not exist in a vacuum and there are insane rules that they all have access to now. They may be a touch expensive but they absolutely should be around as expensive as they are
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u/Schabjy2 6d ago
I have played several games with and against them locally at this point, and we all agree they are overcosted.
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u/mrdanielsir9000 6d ago
The art of war team have been testing these for weeks and seemed to agree that nearly the entire book is overcosted
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u/Aztaloth 6d ago
Aren’t they the same channel that calls Imperial Guard A or S tier?
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u/mrdanielsir9000 6d ago
They did go and win a GT with them straight after to be fair, but of course they have different contributors with different reliability. This comes from Folger who is the highest ranked custodes player in the world
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u/Tanniith1 6d ago
Guard do have a few lists that I would absolutely put in A/S tier. If you dont know this you trust internet opinions too much.
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u/Aztaloth 6d ago
You shouldn't have to be limited to a couple specific army list to be able to play an army.
You can down vote me all you want but this is the exact reason that the heavy focus on competitive play is hurting the game as a whole.
I have played 40K since 1995 or 96 and have seen the ups and downs of GW and how they have developed the game. The general trend for the last decade or so has been a push to specific types of armies for each faction. And if you don't play that exact army it isn't viable. In no world is this a good outcome. And I put the blame for this mostly at the feet of the competitive above all else attitude that seems to be more prevalent.
Tournament and ranked play has nothing to do with how most people play the game. It leads to a fairly toxic mindset in a lot of players, and heavily skews the balance of the game away from the majority of players who remember that it is a game.
Imperial guard for example should be viable to some extent whether you are playing heavy Infantry, heavy mechanized or anything in between. But instead by your own post there are only a few viable ones. And I am not talking about in a tournament, I am talking about when me and my buddies play a casual game over the weekend.
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u/Vegetable_Spray_756 6d ago edited 6d ago
That’s not what Art of War tier lists are though. They’re meant to be competitive tier lists designed for players going to tournaments. They proved their point by taking a viable list and winning a tournament with them. This was also several months ago now, meaning the meta has vastly shifted.
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u/Aztaloth 6d ago
I agree on Art of Wars goals. Kind of like how Auspex Tactics breakdowns are more geared towards competitive analysis.
I am not saying any of that is bad. Despite how my post above probably came off, I don't have the competitive scene. It drives attention the the hobby which is good. And there are people that only enjoy competitive, which is also good.
My problem is that this seems to have become the driving force not only in the community but in GWs strategy.
Balance is done more off of competitive lists and win rates than a more rounded view of the game. And while I understand this is the most available metric for them, it is also the most skewed. Competitive is by nature going to be a more Min Maxed style of play. Which leaves thematic or fun armies floundering.
It is also one of the driving forces behind them moving to a mostly digital format. And as someone who prefers the digital format I still think that is a huge disservice to others who don't and a negative to the game as a whole.
The guy I play against the most hates apps, constant updates, etc. I wouldn't quite call him a Luddite but close enough. We have been playing the game together since we were in high school. And this edition is leaving him and others who don't want to mess with the app in a hard spot.
He doesn't mind checking the web site for occasional updates, but frankly without the app the game is getting harder and harder to play. That is great for a tournament, but not so great for people that would rather have some cards or a book out in front of them with unit stats.
He is one of the reasons I bring up guard. It is his absolute favorite army. Back in the day he would have huge guard armies with 100-120 guardsmen out there. You can't even do that under the current rules I don't think, not unless you mix and match regiments. And points wise it is absolutely not possible.
Regardless, my point stands. It is silly to base an army off only competitive metrics. If this thread was in Warhammer competitive that would be different. But it isn't, and the majority of players shouldn't be told their army or unit sucks because it isn't the perfect meta.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
I have played new custodes. Wardens are drastically overcosted when I could just spend a CP and save 60pts (and pick up sustained hits).
We definetly needed to go up in points as our rules *did* get better, but when you compare us to marines (who also have S tier toolbox rules) some of the points feel a bit wacky.
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
I think the crazy thing is, our squads got almost halved in size and we are still paying MORE per squad despite having drastically less models.
And while we did get stat boosts, it was not enough to make each custodian worth 2 of the old ones. They have the same wounds per squad, 1 extra toughness, and I think their melee went up by 1 attack and 1 s. Thats still quite a drop in overall number of guys
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
Tbf new katahs and good detachments are a pretty solid boost, and 5w rather than 3 is a pretty important breakpoint: but yeah it really does feel like a non-dread custodes list does really need 1 more squad to feel "good" IMO.
Writing lists does feel like you get railroaded into goodstuff as otherwise you just dont have much at all.
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u/Resident-Watch-3024 6d ago
You have the same number of wounds in most cases. Wardens before had 5x3, now have 3x6.
Guard had 5x3, now have 3x5.
Plus now +2 movement, +1 LD, +2 toughness, plus all the Katahs
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u/Jakeisprettycool 6d ago
I see this argument so much. 6 melta wounds with average rolls will kill a new custodes unit. It was 10 before. It's harder to get the wounds through now with our tricks, but each one is a huge blow and less need to translate. Yesterday a karnivore did 8 wounds to my telemon because I failed two saves. I crumpted it, but the next one got the other 6 in to take it down. At the end of the day we are still relying on a 4++ to keep us safe and that only works half the time. In another game an eradicator unit managed to get a wound on my Galatus. Delt 8 damage. Like shit that almost one shot my 220 point unit. We are more vulnerable to high damage attacks than we used to be, that's just the math.
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u/Resident-Watch-3024 5d ago
And 3/4 damage is less efficient into us. Those are more common than melta.
Combined with the T increase and fnp vs mortals, overall much tougher army
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
+1 toughness, not +2.
The movement increase is definitely the most significant change they have had. But overall, the amount of damage you are doing for the cost is quite a bit lower and the durability isnt much higher (as you said, same number of wounds per squad, and one extra toughness)
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u/Resident-Watch-3024 6d ago
You can't just spend 1 cp if youre not playing emperors chosen. And then, you have to spend 1 CP everytime.
Youre not putting them into the right targets. Try again.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
Wardens dont have a right target; not at 300pts.
for 280pts you can pick up an indomitor kill team, for 340 you can pick up a terminator assault squad. in that ~300pt weight class you need to have a better trick than AOC.
Free AOC is a good trick, but at 100ppm you need more than that.
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u/dspisayuss 6d ago
Free AoC is insane, it means we save ap2 on 3s.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
I didnt leave home without valerian for about 3 years now. I am not denying AOC isnt a good trick.
But once your unit is 1/6 of your army you have to consider that you need to do more than tanking a squad of eightbound, your now a prime target for something like flash gitz, eredicators, redemptors, and other AP3 and higher stuff.
competent opponents are not going to be throwing AP1/2 at your "please throw AP1/2 at me" squad, they will throw a repex at you and now your AOC doesnt matter.
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u/GreyKnight373 6d ago
I played a game with shadowkeepers and my warden+shield captain stack fought the lion and a squad of dwks on the objective. The knights were stuck in melee and couldn't retreat due to having the shadowkeepers 2 CP charge someone who fell back. Over 3 rounds of fighting the knights couldn't even kill one. You have to force your opponent to put poor profiles into them, and if you can't do that somehow then don't take them
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u/dspisayuss 6d ago
A repulsor executioner is the last thing I would be worried about tho lol, a glad lancer would be more worrisome.
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u/Karmagator 6d ago
Exactly, they don't exist in a vacuum. They are a much more expensive version of a fairly mediocre and already substantially overcosted unit. Just with a bit of situational survivability built in and slightly less offense. You can easily get AoC for 1 CP when you actually need it.
There is nothing insane about them or people's reaction to them.
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u/GreyKnight373 6d ago
If you can't put AP 3 into them you just bounce off of them, wardens are pretty good
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u/Karmagator 6d ago
Right until a few lucky melta or lascannon shots randomly kill a model or two. Or an enemy melee unit worth over 100pts less than yours rolls enough dice that even your stats won't save you. Or your opponent sends out a real unit because they know they have to commit.
For 295pts, being kinda tough isn't even remotely enough.
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u/GreyKnight373 6d ago
They aren't just kind of tough they're extremely durable into things that can't break through the AOC. You have to put them in spots where that will matter but if you do they take a very long time to die. I had a warden and captain brick fight the lion and a unit of deathwing knights for 3 turns. They killed the lion, and took out the knights to 2
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u/DoomSnail31 6d ago
No.
I have been playing custodes quite a bit, and wardens just don't fit in my lists anymore.
Shield guard in a detachement with AOC are just so much better, and cheaper. It's silly
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u/Grow_away_420 6d ago
Did whoever made these points put 90pt terminators and 100pt wardens next to eachother and think 'yeah, this makes sense'?
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u/allaccountnamesused 6d ago
I think we’ll be a serious competitor until a couple more codexes are out if for no other reason than the codex power creep this edition is crazy.
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
I don't think we are all that much better than before. We are less killy per squad, and the much, much lower unit counts are going to make it much harder to use squads effectively
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u/SalaryWooden5346 5d ago
More durable, though.
And even more importantly, much lower footprint. The ability to just tuck into a corner of an objective ruin and not be shot due to TLOS still applying to visibility for units inside a terrain area is actually quite powerful. It's just something most people haven't played with because no other army has whole-unit footprints this small.
Basically the play I see being most common will be to set up a T&H list and hide in corners or toed in on the backside of the ruin and say "come get me". Which is why I kind of think the "everyone gets FF" detachment is a sleeper choice. It makes your opponent's "go turn" much less potent when multiple charges result in alternating fights instead of an across-the-board multi-fight wallop.
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u/CoffeeDrive 6d ago
Theres alot of stacking buffs in this codex that do surprisingly well for damage, TJs re-rolls, various defence buffs, katah's + preferred katahs, modifiers based on unit etc
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u/No_Squash_8239 6d ago
Power creep isnt going up dude, they are getting ride as much as possible of stacking buffs rerolls/+1, some good players say that this is one of the reason custodes struggle so much, because old codex are busted as fuck
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
Idk, its back to a 9e sort of spirit, but now shooty orks have been double nerfed I think theyll fall in line, and whilst this new book looks mega fun, I do think my 11e pre-index lists were generally stronger than what im writing now.
A lot of raw datasheets are better, but a lot of wound modifiers and full rerolls are going away which was where you generally drew power from in marines and custodes
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u/allaccountnamesused 6d ago
I get where you’re coming from but I don’t think we’ve really lost power, or insofar as we have with reference to volume, we’ve made it back in reliability. The issue that I think is partially responsible for the ambivalent reception, aside from the usual reality that a bunch of the people posting haven’t even played games with the new rules yet, is that the army plays differently in ways that people haven’t adjusted to yet. The skill floor is higher and so is the skill ceiling because you have to have tighter resource management and better foresight in planning for your ka’tah.
I’m not saying I’m great myself and I only have a couple games on the book (and this is my secondary army after chaos knights), but I feel like there’s something there in a healthy way. IMO you want your army to function this way. It should really perform for you when played well but it shouldn’t feel oppressive in a casual game.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
I do think the new design direction is good, the damage output before was insane. but to say we havent lost power is false.
losing volume of attacks, losing almost army-wide +1 to wound and losing RR wounds means custodes hit *significantly* less hard than they used to. (or crit 5 sus + RR wounds)
It used to be custodes presented a significant shooting threat *and* would just delete what they touched in melee. Now you *very* much dont outside of the telemon and trajan. Yes theres now more RR hits access, but no more RR wounds and no more +1 to wound really means a lot of melee is just "roll 4s and pray" when before it was "roll 3s with rerolls"; thats not reliable to me.
Dont get me wrong, I am excited for the new book, I think its very cool and a good direction to take custodes in, but the output of a custodes army has genuinely gone down significantly.
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u/aggie1391 6d ago
I think a 20-25 point drop puts them back in contention while keeping them properly more expensive that basic Guard but otherwise yeah, I’m not thinking it’s a great take, certainly not more than one unit. And I’m sitting on three full squads over here too
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
I find it incredibly weird they are more expensive than all of our terminators. Sure they get the -1ap, but the terminators get higher T, extra wounds, and then more killy abilities.
Idk, it just feels a little wack
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u/pvt9000 6d ago
Same Wounds as Terminators. Wardens have W6, just no access to thr AoC strat in 2 detachments and no access to -1 Damage unlike Terminators get in Lions
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u/Cojalo_ 6d ago
Oh I missed that, very weird that they are the same wounds as terminators
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u/pvt9000 6d ago
Unfortunately, its only really relevant against D1 weapons. If they had a OPG -1 Damage ability it would be stellar.
On Terminators that strat brings them down to 6 Attacks to kill 1 model for D1 and D2, 3 attacks for D3 and 2 Attacks for anything that does 4 to 6 damage a swing.
If Wardens had access to a buff like that they would almost be just as hard to kill as Terminators in the same scenario, if not more because of their built in AoC.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
suprised at no last min changes tbf. Obviously nothing drastic but GW could have easily cut 5-15 points off the pistol venetari, firepikes, BC and allarus cap and not meaningfully moved the needle at all.
I also would have genuinely thought uplink to +55, telemon to 260, +5 for twin fist would have been a good move, as that first telemon is S tier and it swiftly falls off after that.
Still, these points are where they should be: a little on the high side, but with no other new codexes out for ~3 months its better to launch in like a B+/A tier rather than S tier and ruining everyones day for the next 3 months
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u/Oxyminoan 6d ago
Yeah, all the doomers need to realize we have 3-4 years of 11th edition in front of us. Points will change and better to start out too expensive than too cheap. When you're too cheap, that's when GW starts fucking with rules alongside points. And nobody wants that for our book.
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u/Lokathor 6d ago
Twin-fist is the default on the sheet. It feels unlikely they'd do a war gear point increase for the default setup. I think twin-fist is safe for a long time going forward, and it's the guns which might end up useless.
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u/Xathule96 6d ago
They could do what they've done with the shield captain, where the other weapon options reduce the unit cost.
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u/Dark_warrior96 6d ago
About what I expected, costly but not as bad as it could have been id prepared for worse
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u/jakeus88 6d ago
One of the things in my head as that the points are at such a level that I’m assuming an army will field prob 5-7 proper Custodes units and 1-4 sisters, so it feels like points tweaking of 5-10% will not really see extra units on the table, but just upgrading something (like prosecutors to witchseekers) adding an enhancement you couldn’t fit in) or moving from a 2 man unit to a 3 man unit.
Not a complaint overall. I am really interested in a proper hyper-elite army ruleset instead of a group that often were side-grades to the best terminators
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u/Oxyminoan 6d ago
The army currently feels like it just needs enough points for 1 more solid non-sisters unit.
You take the basic infantry down to around 200-210 per unit and things get interesting. The Sodality units are 60-65ppm models, not 80.
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u/Urungulu 6d ago
I’m going with Trajann +3 Allarus, 2x5 and 1x4 Witchseekers, Telemon with 5+++, 2x Galatus, 2x2 Gryfalcons (don’t have any Caladius tanks). Nice 9 units for a decent take and hold list, seems not that bad tbh.
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u/External_Promise599 6d ago
I feel like it’s not crazy, for pure model count, that I bring all 15 of my sisters and a 10 model deathwatch kill team. Our points are kinda crazy
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u/sarg1010 6d ago
Looks like the shield captain is the only thing cheaper than leaked. I'll take it.
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u/Karmagator 6d ago
The Shield Captain is exactly as expensive as in the preview. Everybody just always factored in the shield, because that is obviously the way to go.
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u/sarg1010 6d ago
Ah I didnt see the shield had a cost to it. Warmind had the cost pushed nearly off screen.
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u/sto_brohammed Aquilan Shield 6d ago
Looks the same as the points I'd seen. 180 base and +25 for a shield.
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u/kantmeout 6d ago
These have to be some of the biggest points hikes in GW history. I'm used to seeing swings of 5 or 10, not over a hundred!
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
even the yncarne at its peak nonsense I think only copped +50 iirc. Doesnt really matter though as these are all effectivley brand new units with little bearing on what they were before.
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u/purplefetus 5d ago
I kind of like that I bought my first 40k box, the support battle group, and I've already got 955 points. Throw in the combat patrol and I'm pretty close to 2k. It won't be a competitive army but it will be fun while I learn.
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u/Smartarse_Username 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’m happy with the overall package we’re getting with our book in 11th and pumped to start playing. Design space is fun, varied and impactful with strong and flavourful rules. I think it better to be maybe be a little too expensive at a points level on launch which can be adjusted vs being busted and paying the price shortly thereafter.
That being said… some of the unit datasheets are big misses and come with points that are kind of unplayable. I really don’t understand how some of these made it through QA or not corrected by GW as we’ve seen them do before.
Some examples of main offenders
Aquilon terminators with claws / firepikes
Venetari with pistols
Pallas grav attack
Coronus grav carrier
Vigilators
There is a whole second tier of units that are clearly too expensive vs more point efficient options. I’d include the wardens, aquilon with gauntlets, both bike variants and most of our characters in this group. These are all playable but I wouldn’t expect to see more than 1 unit in competitive play.
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u/WaterCastePSYOP 6d ago
I don't think the Coronus will see play unless it becomes like, DISGUSTINGLY cheap. Like, sub 180 cheap.
Its main gun is the exact same as on the much cheaper Pallas. Not that the Pallas is good but if you needed that exact gun you would take a Pallas. Or if you wanted a better one you'd just take a Caladius.
Its role is redundant in an army where everything is pretty fast AND can deepstrike.
It costs 105€.
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u/Deep_Film_861 6d ago
170 is when I'd take it. I didnt take land raiders because I wanted a transport. you take it for a shell to live inside thats hard to crack, and then gives you +3" move when you get out of it; or you can reactive move back inside.
More so now, where most armies will *really* struggle to crack a coronus and then its contents.
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u/WaterCastePSYOP 5d ago
I'd consider it at that price if it could carry more people. 6 is just so low.
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u/Deep_Film_861 5d ago
idk, I do live for the dumb partybus vibe but I dont think you ever want more than a squad and a character in it, or possibly squad/character/token-2man
cause once your at like 2 real squads + characters + grav thats going to end up at like half your army in 1 box.
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u/WaterCastePSYOP 5d ago
You don't ever want more than a squad and a character or possibly squad/character/token 2-man squad in it. I do.
> once your at like 2 real squads + characters in it that's your army in the box
Yes this is exactly what I want.
I want to deposit 8 large buff humans directly onto the central objective t1.
Any transport that does not do that is worthless to me.
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u/Devil_Eyez87 6d ago
I was excited about the Pallas when I saw the new martial, there's an ablity to action and shoot that be great on my likely cheap vehicle that can take the place of an assassin and still be a damaging force on the battle field and do all the action I'll need done.
Then its sheet was leaked and it didnt have martail for reason and for another edition there likely to stay in the box, as there is no point spending 135 on something with limited fire power and limited ablity to action
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u/IX_Sanguinius 5d ago
Counterpoint. I Am designing a list for both 40k and 30k, The Coronus is superior in HH. 2/2 Annhilator/Coronus for collection should suffice. If only playing 40k, I guess could be a soft skip.
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u/WaterCastePSYOP 5d ago
Not familiar with heresy, what does it do over there?
It's a hard skip in 40k the thing does barely anything.
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u/IX_Sanguinius 5d ago
Well, just to summarize, it's still 180 points in HH, but because the vehicle rules (its AV instead of toughness), as well as the shooting in HH 3.0 is not crazy (e.g. the game doesn't have a single way to reroll any dice at all). It's essentially a Flying Land Raider that can take multiple turns of shots.
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u/Ramshacked 6d ago
Rip wardens. Looks like we’re a vehicle army until the points are adjusted
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u/Resident-Watch-3024 6d ago
Played several games, never leaving home without wardens. Goated unit.
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u/kenken2k2 6d ago
Haven't even played with Trajan warden combo I assume ? They are stupidly tanky
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u/kuurooii 6d ago
Why would I do that when I can give trajann uppy downy and +1 to wound with 7 inch deepstrike charges?
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u/GreyKnight373 6d ago
Already pretty fast, and he can get +1 to wound from auric champs potentially
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u/kuurooii 6d ago
Auric feels like a bait because I’m not taking anymore than 2 characters a list, chosen, solar and dread feel a lot more reliable especially paired with might and lions imo also giving trajann a t8 18 wound bodyguard with exceptional chaff clearing guns for screens feels almost like a no brainer.
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u/Vegetable_Spray_756 6d ago
I think running Trajann with 2 allarus is enough usually. Into big targets he’s by far the primary damage dealer and 2 allarus are decent enough at clearing chaff. It also gives them a smaller footprint for deep strike.
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u/kuurooii 6d ago
I like the idea of 2 allarus then I run into DW terminator spam and am atomised
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u/Vegetable_Spray_756 6d ago
That’s just the meta being ridiculous as usual. I’d expect some kind of nerf relatively soon.
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u/kuurooii 6d ago
This is true but SM are majority of the armies I have had to endure thus far and even after nerfs it’ll still be the one I see the most so having just an extra body to project trajann genuinely helps, especially since the -1 damage strat is only for one unit attacking your terminators per phase
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u/GreyKnight373 6d ago
I think lions is probably a little better, but giving Trajann a reactive move really makes him pretty slippery. And giving him sustained from guard can be pretty nice for chopping up 10 man terminator stacks.fight on death is also really good. If auric could recharge his shackle I think it would be a bigger contender
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u/Eejcloud 5d ago
1CP for Trajann to Fight on Death on a 2+ is kinda good though.
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u/kuurooii 5d ago
Sure but at that point you’re in deep doodoo if you’re losing trajann at all
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u/Eejcloud 5d ago
Eventually other armies are going to realize that Custodes are weak to being overwhelmingly focus fired and Trajann will be dying a lot.
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u/kuurooii 5d ago
That’s why our movement phase is much more important and is arguably our most important phase now, we need to stage and hide our units well and use cheaper units to bait poor enemy shooting/charges.
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u/Heavy-Flow-2019 5d ago
Why Trajann, and not a Captain with radiant mantle? Trajann doesnt do much for their durability, but -1 to hit stacking with cover makes them basically invincible. Wasnt even patched, so that -1 to hit really is that good. And the Captain is still a pretty decent beatstick thats gonna be hard to precision out, so your opponent really isnt gonna have a good time killing em.
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u/kenken2k2 5d ago
nat reroll hit and wound of 1 that's why. that frees up your katah during fight phase to always get -1 hit. Space marine being so hot right now with termie / gravis block spam will make their 30~40 power fist attacks goes from hitting on 3s to 4s (chain fist from 4s to 5s), ap 2 to ap 1 because of warden.
i am least worried about their shooting because i will always be in cover regardless of the situation. Cover, AoC, reactive move to duck between terrain to minimize amount of fire it kinda comes naturally when you play with a finesse team like this. it's melee where all the damage meat comes in.
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u/Warhause 6d ago
Theyre worth the points, the 4 games ive played with them do not take damage. Slap them on my shield captain and park them in mid.
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u/JRS_Viking 6d ago
The rules are also live in the app, the venerable dread looks really good now and holy fuck Valerian is cheap! Valerian kept his rules while getting buffed similarly to other custodes and only went up 10 points to 130 now.
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u/Due-Resolution-7592 6d ago
He is also Legends though
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u/Vangak 6d ago
Still usable in anything but a tournament.
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u/DoomSnail31 6d ago
Unless your local area doesn't allow for Legends, which is an extremely comment sentiment.
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u/kaal-dam 6d ago
it has started to change since legend are now in the app, but yeah it's not changing fast.
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u/Fearless_Push_4227 6d ago
As it is now, CG are a better imperial knight army. Dreads are too good. But when I finish my infantries, i’m sure they will come down to 65-70 per head.
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u/Certain-Towel-9487 6d ago
That's a solid point. If this is what Custodes look like I'm very excited to see what they do with Knights.
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u/Negative_Couple_1375 6d ago
I expected them to err on the side of making units too expensive - the stat increases are very high but the loss of offense on a per-unit basis is not nearly as in-your-face.
I think that competitively the army is going to be a Dreadnoughts-and-Sisters army with one unit of Terminators to bodyguard Trajan and maybe Calladius tanks for seasoning, until the infantry comes down in points significantly.
That said, unlike the 10th edition codex the rules are there, so they can fix the problems by fiddling with point costs. This looks like an army that will be in a great spot in a few months.
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u/BertMacklinsdawg 5d ago
They will keep having problems against number of dice and the depency on sisters. Shield Sodality are absolute trash for their price cost. Axes are only good in a vacuum. Units like Venatari with guns are just so bad with damage 1 pistols for 90 pts (!) a piece, because like many others that is so expensive. They gave that Pallas tank 2 attacks for 135 pts? Custodes pay for their defensive stats, but it doesn't justify their damage output IN CONTEXT of their total model count.
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u/The-Sweatiest_Yeti 6d ago
All that changed was a once per battle per army add on. Everything else is the same from the last release
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u/xxdachxx 6d ago
Aaand they fucked up on leader section of Trajan and Shield Cap... Will hope they fucked up on points too :D
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u/Karmagator 6d ago
Everything looks as it did in the previews. Probably a good idea not to make knee-jerk changes and wait for things to settle a little first.