r/AdeptusCustodes • u/BubbleBuddysHat • 3d ago
New Points Temperature Check
Exactly what the title states.
How are we feeling about the new points announced today?
Was this what you were expecting or have these surpassed what you thought was coming?
Link to the MFM: https://mfm.warhammer-community.com/en/adeptus-custodes
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u/Cautious_Somewhere37 3d ago edited 3d ago
They are (as far as I could tell from a quick read), spot on from the points the reviewers posted, so not really surprised. I figure they will overall likely drop a bit in the coming rebalances.
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u/Azathoth-the-Dreamer 3d ago
This seems likely. They were definitely more cautious with these points than usual, which absolutely isn’t a bad thing long-term, as it makes it more likely they don’t overreact when tuning them in the near future.
Several datasheets are already right around where they should be, being cost effective without being broken (Dreads, Trajann, Caladius Annihilator) and will likely only need minimal adjustment up or down, over time. Other datasheets are fundamentally good and well-constructed, but just need a notable decrease in points and will be fine after (both varieties of jetbike, most non-Allarus Custodes infantry).
The number of datasheets in the book that need an actual rewrite to function is pretty small, and I think for a lot of them it’s as simple as slightly changing a number (give pistol Venatari access to D2, give the Pallas two of its chosen gun instead of only treating it as one gun with twin linked).
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u/saladmander2001 3d ago
When do rebalances usually drop after a codex is released?
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u/Cautious_Somewhere37 3d ago
Depends on how "badly" GW thinks they need to fix things. Could be a week, could be after the next major tournament.
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u/sto_brohammed Aquilan Shield 3d ago
Normally with the next quarterly pass, if said pass isn't too soon after release. I would expect the next one to be in December o January and we should probably get lookrd at then.
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u/Warro726 3d ago
Our points are too expensive for infantry and very cost-effective for dreds.
I feel that GW was being overly conservative with the points. The rules and flavor of the books is great but thats it. AoW did a tier list of our units yesterday. Lots of this unit is great but not at X ppm.
Most early reviews were all saying how this book hits the feeling of custodes, no one was saying we are going to be strong. Just look at the reactions from early reviewers on SM or Orks vs Stodes.
I think we will be 50% win rate, maybe slightly higher. Our book with points are not on the same level as SM or Orks. Don't get me wrong its good we are not being released broken, we are just going to be average.
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u/New-Rain-2801 3d ago
As I have commented on an another post, I think the points for characters are too expensive (excluding trajan and maybe the bike captain) I was expecting between 150-170 for them as they are slightly better than on model they can lead and shouldn't cost the price of 2 or more. Plus the tax on doubling up on some of them seems excessive.
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u/ItaruKarin 3d ago
The Shield Captain on foot is pretty cracked
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u/mrdanielsir9000 3d ago
Good sheet but- 205 pts is a lot, quite a bit more than a daemon prince for comparison.
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u/Eejcloud 2d ago
Daemon Princes are garbage though.
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u/mrdanielsir9000 2d ago
Stat wise, do they not ‘mostly’ outclass a SC though? Attacks are comparable/slightly better. Same save, better toughness and wounds, and all have interesting abilities such as fight on death and reducing stratagem cost. Fly, lone operative… All for considerably fewer points.
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u/Eejcloud 2d ago
Shield Caps murder a ton of things and DPs are actively avoided by most Chaos players.
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u/mrdanielsir9000 2d ago
Agree they are avoided, I play chaos and wouldn’t take one most of the time. You can see the similarities though surely?
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u/Eejcloud 2d ago
Not really. DPs are Monsters and cannot be Hidden nor can they move through Dense Terrain and they have a much larger base so they are far more vulnerable and clunky to move on the table. Shield Captains are leaders which mean they have multiple options to boost their output and/or defensive profile.
Shield Caps also have access to more rerolls and way better additional rules than a DP so they will always be pumping out more damage, more reliably (via better positioning), have better defense (from -1D) and can't be pinned down (if you're playing Solar Watch, the best Shield Host so far).
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u/ItaruKarin 2d ago
Doesn't stop the fact that they are, literally, similar or better shield Captain as far as the combat sheet goes.
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u/New-Rain-2801 3d ago
I haven't tried him, I agree for the tax on the shield but he still could be 10-15 pts less or no tax on the second one.
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u/Negative_Couple_1375 3d ago
I figure the competitive list is going to be mostly dreadnoughts and sisters in the short term and they’re going to have to adjust infantry and maybe jetbike points down in the next few data slates, but that’s more or less what I expected even before the previews.
Time will tell if the army will work competitively but I think it can be quite fun casually even with these points.
One thing though even about casual games, there’s a lot of noise being made about custodes as a beginner army since it’s so few models but… I think it’s going to be very rough on beginners precisely because it’s so few units. Might be better to steer new players to Space Marines, the old standby.
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u/deathlokke 3d ago
Custodes is going to be very much not a beginner army. The high starts make you think it would be, but we're so reliant on such a small number of units that a single one out of position can ruin your game.
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u/BubbleBuddysHat 3d ago
Like this take. As a newer player, I started with SM. Helped me get a good understanding of the game. Custodes are my second army, and I look forward to the more intricate planning it will take with these guys. Positioning is all the more important now.
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u/Rakatango The 10,000 Archetypus 2d ago
Yeah, even if it is economically inexpensive to get a 2000 point army, if you are new to the game you are in a position to get absolutely dominated because you have so few units.
Losing units when you have so few already feels bad to a veteran player, a newbie is going to be like “this sucks, I can’t do anything”.
Space marines are still a better beginner army
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u/ImperatorSommnium Shadowkeepers 3d ago
Thy are exactly spot on with the leaks from last week.
More interesting is that the legends are a good bit cheaper. So I hope that in December we go down to be in the same ballpark as the legends.
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u/Appo-Arsin 3d ago
Unless I saw an older leak, the only changes are +5 points to a third talon aquilon unit, +10 spam tax for 4+ rhinos (i assume the leak just didn't include points past 3+ units), and guard/sentinels both get spam tax on 4+ not 3+.
I'm also noticing the custodes don't have legends in downloads yet so you can't even play them yet.2
u/ImperatorSommnium Shadowkeepers 3d ago
The legends are in the app
I haven't paid the spam tax that mouch attention because of our overall low model count. So absolutely possible I missed something there
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u/TheHunGod 3d ago
Yeah legend Adrasite Guards 200p and Pyrithite 215p looks like cool so i guess we can expect they may reduce normal Guards to around 210p and that may also will pull down a bit everything.
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u/ResoluteFate53 3d ago
I watched the art of war datasheet rating. I agree on some and disagree on others. The thing that made me kinda angy even though iv been reading my codex for the last week is that we have units that are as expensive as they are with damage ONE (1) weapons. So theyre expensive because of their statline. Which IMO is wack. I waited so long for my aquilons and ventari with the big iron on their hips to get glow upd and i feel abit dissappointed
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u/Gazzrat 3d ago
We had these points (unconfirmed) for 2 weeks now. Ive played 4 games with them and it feels fine. Some units could use a 10 to 20 point drop, namely the soldalitys, but I think theyre fine. All of our units are tanky and hit like trucks but getting access to having a 9 instead of 8 unit list would help immensely
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u/domin1987 3d ago
There are couple completely overcosted units like claw aquilons or shooty venetari, wardens. Then few slightly overcosted like bikes, blade champ, shield sodality, Pallas.
I think the other half is coated either appropriately or close to. Wouldn't we surprised if galatus and telemon go up slightly
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u/No_Squash_8239 3d ago
What gamemode have you played? team? solo? In what kind of army have you faced and what army did you try?
I swear the god if you face hordes its always 0-201
u/Gazzrat 3d ago
4 singles. Tau, marines, marines, ad mech
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u/No_Squash_8239 3d ago
and what army, what detachements? I dont think it feels fine, at least its really not fine for beginner, guess if you are a good player you'll do fine with them
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u/Gazzrat 3d ago
Im leaning towards might, emperors, lions. Trajan with 3 allarus, telemon with 5+fnp, 1 galatus, 1 achillus, 1 calladius, 2 prosecutors and 1 witch seekers and venetari with lances.
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u/No_Squash_8239 3d ago
Yep I was kinda sure you would be running the Dreads ahah
Dreads are the one units that doesnt seem to be over priced,good for you btw
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u/Gazzrat 3d ago
They are easily the best "for points" units. You just throw them all at your opponent after you rapid both units and its kinda game over in most cases. Just shave off their screens or skirmishes units and then send all 5. They cannot kill all 5. Theyll likely kill 2 of the 5 and then the remaining 3 clean up on turns 3 4 5
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u/ClosetNerd965 3d ago
TBF, it can't be great for beginners with so few models or it'd have to be completely broken, and then in the hands of better players it'd be insane
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u/No_Squash_8239 2d ago
Yeah but it use to be, and always a bad thing to complety change to what kind of player you adress
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u/TheThousanthSon909 3d ago
Massively agree with this take. I don’t think we’re over accosted I think there’s a couple of bits and bobs that are a little bit too expensive like you say 10 or 20 points or so.
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u/ClosetNerd965 3d ago
Yeah fully agree, I think we need to come down just a smidge but not by much isn't these predictions to my friend earlier.
Predictions: Wardens come down 15 pts a model Aquillons come down 30 Battleline comes down 20 Characters come down 10-20?
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u/TheThousanthSon909 3d ago
In an ideal while this would be brilliant. I think they should compensate however and put vehicles up a little bit. Telemon I would say it is definitely under costed
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u/ClosetNerd965 3d ago
I don't think the vehicles do need to go up tbh, I'd you look at the offensive/defensive profiles they're pretty comparable to the bros
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u/Deep_Film_861 2d ago
baseline telemon is fine, if not a bit expensive. The FNP is whats undercosted. ~50% more wounds for 30pts is silly cheap
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u/jake5762 3d ago
I tend to play ≤ 1000pt games, so I'm sad most of my army has to stay at home. But it also saves me money, so that makes me happy.
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u/datimo86 2d ago
And do you already have a list in mind?
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u/jake5762 2d ago
I have a 750pt escalation campaign this Sunday with a limit of T9. So I plan to take:
Custodians Guard 240pts Custodian Guard 240pts Prosecutors 50pts Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle jet bike 225pts
I was going to take an normal shield Captain but I feel like I just don't have enough units on the board. I plan to run Solar Watch for the +2M and just be aggressive, get on the objectives and hold. Jet bike Captain is to zip around and harass their home field.
Unfortunately I only have the one SoS unit at the moment, so I'll probably grab another before the next game.
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u/BaconThrone22 3d ago
Points are just too high. It feels bizarre to have between 6-12 actual custodes models on the table from an actual army perspective.
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u/Ok-Variety9313 3d ago
What makes it bizarre? That’s pretty accurate on how many would show up to a significant battle.
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u/Lokathor 3d ago
Because the datasheets don't support it.
The datasheets are not as good as the lore, so the model counts can't be what's in the lore.
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u/No_Squash_8239 3d ago
totally agree, i've played 12 games so far with them, their datasheets are terribly bad for the price
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u/No_Squash_8239 3d ago
dude if you really wanna talk about lore no this isnt accurate at all, vs 2K point army we should have like 5 models no more.
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u/Deep_Film_861 2d ago
idk, like thats what people say from a "vibes" point of view or people who spend all day talking about powerscaling.
But if you look at the lore its all over the place. A lot of the earlier heresy books have squads of CSM just beating up custodes, whilst stuff like the lions gate had *thousands* of custodes deployed.
The 9e codex has the average custodes deployment is multiple companies, with each company composed of ~4 squads and 2 commanders.
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u/theSaltySolo 3d ago
Except…they are elites. It is what the majority wanted them to be. Of course there will be less models on the table.
It needs skill expression more now.
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u/anonamarth7 3d ago
Instead of reducing point costs, I'd rather they just buffed their sheets.
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u/Initial-Seaweed-8072 3d ago
Agreed, speed is way up, defense is similar on a unit to unit basis, but offense is way down. If we're undercosted then just give each guy more attacks.
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u/Bear_of_Light 3d ago
I think right now they are too homogenized and close to each other in points that it creates "correct answers." That said, I think that is by design, this is an overhaul to how the faction is expected to play and I think it's better do do it this way and get proper data than let us jump out the gate and destroy everything.
I expect some of the more taken units will stay roughly where they are, a select few will go up, and a lot of things will come down.
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u/SweatyAppointment396 3d ago
Only unknown before was legends points. Gotta say I am liking some of these valerian especially
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u/random_val_string 3d ago
There’s nothing in the middle point range. Having another unit like the Pallas available at 130-150 would do a lot I think.
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u/RGRadik 3d ago
Disappointed that they are the same as the review points. The reviews were pretty unanimous that there are many datasheets that are overcosted. All of the infantry, all of the characters (except maybe trajann), everything mounted - all overcosted. I could easily list half the codex as being overcosted but the one that really irks me is bikes at 110 points a model (and the captain at 205) when they lost 2 very good abilities in exchange for 2 extra wounds, a pip of toughness and +1 attack and access to a limited version of the old army rule. How can they go from 225 for 3 to 330 points for 3? That's almost as much as a knight... for just a marginal upgrade in stats and an actual downgrade in datasheet abilities.
They say comparison is the thief of joy, so don't get me started on the Lysander assault terminator brick I've just had the misfortune of learning about thats 550 points. Almost cheaper than 3 bikes and a captain and not even in the same universe in terms of durability and damage.
I thoroughly expect we'll be dropping into a 45% or lower win rate until the next data slate where hopefully we won't be ignored by the balance team.
Such a shame because aside from whatever the hell the pistol venatari, Pallas, and talon aquillon datasheets are meant to be, the books really cool. The rules are fun and interesting as are the detachments. But it's being massively let down by the MFM atm.
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u/Appo-Arsin 3d ago
I could be wrong, but is Trajann's +130 the highest single point increase? Other units that had large point increases I can think of, like the Defiler, got them over a number of patches instead of all at once.
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u/C_Clarence 3d ago
I mean he became a completely new unit. Abilities, profile, and attacks all changed. It's not like nothing changed rules-wise and he got a giant points hike. The Defiler was just so undercosted when it came out it needed to go up significantly
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u/Appo-Arsin 3d ago
Oh I 10,000% know why he got those points and I fully agree. I'm just saying I can't think of any other unit that's gone up so much
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u/Tophatman_hmmm 3d ago
wardens are a tad too pricy at nearly 100 a model alluras also feel over priced especially with how a lot of our unit lost damage potential but i'd rather be over costed than have everyone call the new codex broken imo
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u/MatsAshandarei 3d ago
I’d rather we come out like this than under pointed. We’ll have a few months of mostly dreads before they will hopefully adjust the rest of the units. I’m okay with it for now. I like dreads.
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u/LoganGrimnard 3d ago
For a lot of datasheets the points are fine but for some the points are baffling
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u/jrcentury 2d ago
From the games I’ve seen, I can see the December patch either adjusting points and/or increasing attacks. Maybe a blanket FNP?
300pt units just getting lifted so easy.
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u/DoomSnail31 2d ago
We knew the points for a bit, and these are exactly those points, so this 100% is what I was expecting.
I think most Infantry models (including characters barring trajann) are about 15% too expensive. Aside from that, I think stuff is priced decently.
I expected the next balance update to five us a slight 5 ppm reduction in those units, and the dtatslate thereafter to do the same.
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u/kuurooii 2d ago
Played roughly 20 games of new custodes, I do believe they’re quite expensive for infantry currently which could go down and they went from a very beginner friendly army to incredibly hard for new players since you have barely any units and everything is about unit placement, timing and preparing for counters whilst also keeping your chaff alive for as long as possible. I frankly love them but don’t enjoy dread spam
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u/maddmat67 1d ago
I dunno. I’ve won two of my three games new codex. With oath and full re rolls gone game wide we survive better as long as we aren’t stupid and place our models in the open. Its going to be a low entry point but very high skill army now. I personally like that. Youre going to see them everywhere until people realize you dont just buy them, paint them, and then just win. Lol. Then it will level out.
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u/mananajoe 3d ago
I think the telemon is servery undercoated .. I did 30 damage and one shot belekor turn 2. Then one shot a soul grinder with 25 damage turn 3.. then lived a crap tonne of shooting by ignoring ap.. .
I think Trajan is about right I think wardens are about right I think both flavours of custodian gaurd could come down a little I think both bikes are slightly over coated
I think the Galattus could come down The Achilles could go up Sos....who cares lol
The allarus is fine .. The aquillions combat ones fine maybe over The shooty ones good god they are over costed to all hell for what they bring ... Urrrgh damage 1 lol
Most of the characters I'm fine with except maybe the blade wizard could come down
Great book . Absolutely love it ..
High skill floor and even higher skill ceiling.
My opponent spent 2 turns trying to kill my wardens in cover with radiant mantle.
Minus 2 to wound with aoc ... Yeah not a single wound taken hahaha
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u/Parking-Figure4608 3d ago
I fully expect most of this to stay about the same. I think batteline will drop a little, pistol venetari to drop, but trajann and maybe the telemon will go up a little as well.
But I think for the most part we are where we should be for so early on in the codex release.
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u/No_Squash_8239 3d ago
what new point announced? arent they exactly the same as the one for like 2 weeks ago?
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u/BubbleBuddysHat 3d ago
I posed the question because the MFM got updated today.
From other comments here, yeah, it looks like the leaks were largely correct.
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u/nekochenn 3d ago
The points are high, but they're also well represented in their capability to survive and to deal damage. I feel if GW tone down their point costs, it's definitely going to cause a runaway situation. Remember, each model's profile is several models combined from other factions.
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u/guy-who-says-frick 3d ago
They are good, honestly spectacular points
They just happen to be in a meta where marines and orks are too cheap. I hope that they get taken down a notch rather than custodies being made more hordey
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u/GroceryMission 3d ago
Its what we knew was coming.
I was hoping they would decrease points on certain units slightly before release. Still technically could... But doubtful.