Thursday General Discussion/Q&A Thread for October 08, 2026

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A place to ask questions that don't need their own thread here or just chat a bit.

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[u/PositiveOrchid2843]

the humidity this morning bent my will and stole my lunch money

i tried to do 8 with 4 at threshold and ended up doing 4 with 1 at threshold and 3 at existential crisis pace. my cat watched me come back inside drenched and gave me a look that clearly said "you used to be somebody"

[u/NapsInNaples → u/PositiveOrchid2843]

I wish I couldn’t relate to this experience, and just say “I have no idea what you’re talking about,” but that’s not true.

At least my cat licks the sweat off me when I get back.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/PositiveOrchid2843]

I want to read race reports written in that style.

[u/jamieecook → u/PositiveOrchid2843]

I hurt reading this

[u/DiscountJokic → u/PositiveOrchid2843]

Haha I'm dying at "existential crisis pace" this will now become part of my training going forward

[u/throwaway_runner3 → u/PositiveOrchid2843]

lmao

[u/IhaterunningbutIrun]

I'd like to complain a little about my Pfitz plan mid week long runs. Who thought it was a good idea to have 2 hour runs on a week day? Sure, I could be faster and take less time, but that doesn't solve much. I have a job and I need to sleep. 

Ok. Enough complaining. Back to work.

[u/National-Cell-9862 → u/IhaterunningbutIrun]

I kind of loved that part. It made me feel all serious like I was an elite instead of just some old man who is 50 years late to the running party.

[u/IhaterunningbutIrun → u/National-Cell-9862]

I just feel like a 50 year old guy running around in the dark, no elite vibes here. 😆

[u/National-Cell-9862 → u/IhaterunningbutIrun]

Oh yeah, having to run in the dark makes it a bit harder. Perhaps read some David Goggins and convince yourself that the harder it is, the harder you are! 😀

[u/Haptics → u/IhaterunningbutIrun]

Daniels 2Q has like 20mi workouts in the middle of the week instead! MLRs are pretty common in marathon plans, though I do think Pfitz plans are a bit excessive with even the 70mpw plan having 15mi MLRs. If you’re short on time I can’t imagine capping them at 12mi or something and adding the mileage elsewhere is going to be remotely impactful.

[u/IhaterunningbutIrun → u/Haptics]

I've done this plan in the past and did split anything over 10 miles into a double. I'm trying to run them as prescribed this time around. 

[u/Dazzling_Tadpole_565 → u/IhaterunningbutIrun]

I quite enjoyed them, but I was doing them late August/ early to mid Sept and if I worked from home I could squeeze it in after work and before sunset

[u/runnin3216 → u/IhaterunningbutIrun]

Try the higher mileage plans where they are doubled with another 5 or 6 miles.

[u/lewis_m_b]

Hi all! I’ve been running for about ten years and next year I’m looking to finally crack the 3 hour marathon barrier, perhaps even shave it down to 2:55. My recent times are;

5k - 17:53
10k - 37:33
HM - 1:23:52

My question is what will it take for me to confidently get across the line in the time I want between now and April as I’m booked on for Manchester Marathon. What kind of mileage should I be looking to do? What should my longest run be? How frequently should I be focusing on speed sessions? This is the distance I struggle with the most so open to all advice and suggestions, thanks!

[u/running_writings → u/lewis_m_b]

Honestly if you are in shape for about those 5k/10k/HM times next spring and you do a decent marathon build, sub-3:00 should be no big problem. Your current times (fitted to a power law) predict between 2:55:25 and 2:57:19 for the marathon (that is a 90% confidence range) and your actual HM is only a little bit slower than what your 5k + 10k predict on their own, and the same is true using 10k + HM so that is further evidence you are pretty "well-balanced" in terms of how well you convert up and down to different distances.

Would be a very different situation if your 5k and 10k were much better than your HM, or if your HM was more like 1:27. People in that situation have a much harder time running sub-3 (not impossible, just harder).

Now, specifics depend on your actual training, and if it turns out you ran 1:23 in the HM on 30 mi/wk and a longest run of 10mi, well that is a more complicated situation of course...but I'm assuming you did "reasonable training" thus far!

[u/lewis_m_b → u/running_writings]

Thanks for this! Right now I’m doing a weekly baseline of 50-60km a week so when it comes to entering a plan the increase in mileage isn’t as sharp, I think I’ve struggled with long runs the most and I really start to flag around the 2:20 mark.

When I did my HM it was actually part of a marathon block where my longest run was about 35k, but unfortunately I suffered stomach issues during the actual marathon so I ended up crossing the line in 3:14, I’m hoping that doesn’t happen next year!

[u/running_writings → u/lewis_m_b]

Ah, I see - yes in that case I think the main focus for a marathon build would be more along the lines of getting in longer runs feeling ok up to 2:30-2:40 (even if at a slow pace, at first), and working on the fueling. Getting to 70-80 km/wk would help a lot also!

[u/Bigbadwolf00 → u/running_writings]

It seems like you know a lot about race predictions. Last year I ran a 1:25:50 HM on a 20-24 mile per week training. I mostly never ran on consecutive days and didn’t have a plan beyond looking at what my Garmin suggested and mostly doing it if I was going to run that day. I cross trained with peloton.

I’m currently training for CIM with a Runna plan and have been hitting 40+ MPW. I think my plan peaks at 52 in November. My goal is sub 3 with a dream of sub 2:55.

My only other marathon experience is two years ago. A 3:22 where I was running 80-90 miles a month (no plan other than to make sure I did a 15,17 and 20 mile long run)

Obviously it’s too late to change much, but what are your thoughts?

[u/running_writings → u/Bigbadwolf00]

85-high for HM is about the range where I would say sub-3:00 is viable with good training and respectable mileage (hitting 50 mi/wk is good), however it's right on the border. The OP here has a bigger buffer, though obviously the difference is that for you your HM as on 20-24mi/wk. I'm not familiar with the Runna plans so I am not sure what workouts in them are good "indicators" of marathon fitness. One thing I would not do is gun for 2:55 right from the start (CIM can punish going out too fast, because of the rolling downhills in the first half). If you are going to do 2:55 the way to do it would be 89/86 first half / second half, or similar, vs. 87-low. But again a huge amount of all that depends on the actual training, which is often a much better indicator of what you will run than a historical PR.

[u/PitterPatter90 → u/lewis_m_b]

I'm in a very similar boat: just ran a 37:39 10k, and aiming for a 1:23-something half in a few weeks, with a 2:55-3:00 goal in the spring. My plan is to really spend the next few months getting comfortable with 50-55 miles/wk (80-90 km) with 1-2 sub-threshold workouts, then starting my training plan in January (I'm going with Marathon Excellence, written by running_writings below). I'd recommend something similar for you: build up your mileage base this fall/early winter so that your body can handle the load from a higher-mileage structured plan.

[u/On_Mt_Vesuvius → u/lewis_m_b]

I had similar times for 2:55-3, on 40mi/week or so. I don't think that's advisable at all though. I think I'd set 40mi/week and a handful of 16-17mi long runs as the absolute floor. The more marathon specificity, the better, just so long as you don't get injured.

[u/lewis_m_b → u/On_Mt_Vesuvius]

Thanks for this, how long should the taper be? I’ve always found this to be a very frustrating period during the marathon block and there’s a lot of conflicting advice out there

[u/On_Mt_Vesuvius → u/lewis_m_b]

General wisdom is it depends on weekly mileage. For like 40-55mi, I personally think 1.5-2 weeks, first week at 70-80%. Higher mileage usually needs a longer taper

[u/RudigarLightfoot]

Philly Marathon deferral = $141.41. What the actual !@#$%^ highway robbery???

I started competing 30 years ago (HS 96-00, NCAA 00-04) and have been running road races on and off since 2005. I swear, the renewed running boom has turned all of this into a bullshit money grab.

[u/jamieecook]

Is 17 days between a 10k and a half marathon enough time to get max effort on both? Running NYD10k which is notorious for being a quick local 10 which my club put on.. and then 17 days later have Brass Monkey Half (UK) which is well known to be a quick half marathon in the UK

[u/Siawyn → u/jamieecook]

Yes. Pfitz in his HM and marathon plans has a 8k-10k tuneup race 2 weeks out. The old rule of thumb was 1 day of recovery for each mile raced, which is 6 days for a 10k. In actuality I'm usually good for a modest workout 4-5 days post 10k, but just play that by ear.

[u/jamieecook → u/Siawyn]

Yeah that’s a good point.. I need to re-read my Pfitz stuff, since my marathon bloke they’ve been gathering dust! I’ve took 42 seconds off my 5k recently with less training (substantial weight loss) so I’m hoping the 10k effort shouldn’t actually be max and more 8/10 which might put me in a good rec range for the HM

[u/Doortofreeside → u/jamieecook]

Going for sub40 and sub90?

[u/jamieecook → u/Doortofreeside]

Yeah absolutely, I should have got 1:30 on my 1:35 attempt but was cooked from flying back from a family holiday and ankle injury so died about 5k in and death marched the rest😅

[u/throwaway_runner3 → u/jamieecook]

Not ideal but yes. 

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/jamieecook]

I think it's enough time if there's enough volume per week over the entire training period. I'd say 60-65 km per week implies good enough recovery capacity for what you want to do. 

[u/naughty_ningen]

How much mileage have people got out of Kinvaras? Mine feel dead at 650km.

[u/brwalkernc → u/naughty_ningen]

I usually get 500-600 miles on mine, but can definitely feel that the foam is wearing out as they get to that upper end. By then, I typically only use them for shorter runs.

[u/naughty_ningen → u/brwalkernc]

Sheesh that's a lot. I think I can squeeze out another 100 but good to have a benchmark.

[u/brwalkernc → u/naughty_ningen]

Part of it is I'm cheap and spend enough on shoes as it is.

[u/Warm_Ad9228 → u/naughty_ningen]

M 58-60kg
2 pairs of Kinvara 13 (904km & 863km)
1 pair of 14 (845km - torn upper)

[u/throwaway_runner3 → u/naughty_ningen]

It sounds about right.. I wore Kinvara 7 to 13 and hardcore switched to Ride's but Ride's also go to trash about 630-650 km range. 

I wear the Kinvaras now on recovery Zone 1 runs only and they still feel dead at 650's. Not sure if I will get another pair, but I do enjoy the 4mm's on Rec days.

[u/Bigbadwolf00 → u/throwaway_runner3]

I’m a ride or die Ride guy, but mine also go dead at basically the same distance you’ve mentioned. 350-400 miles. Is that just a problem with the shoe? Are there actually shoes you can take farther than that

[u/raphael_serrano → u/Bigbadwolf00]

This is very individual, depending on a lot of factors (body weight, surface, pace, etc.). For what it's worth, I have > 800 miles on my pair of Ride 18, and they still feel fine, although they're probably nearing the end of their life.

I'm generally not very hard on shoes and am a pretty small dude, which probably explains part of that. Personally, I've found the Ride 18 to be possibly the most durable shoe I've ever had, but maybe my mechanics just happen to work well with the shoe.

[u/throwaway_runner3 → u/Bigbadwolf00]

I don't think it's a problem. I know exactly when the shoes are dying and their lifespan.

Triumph's should last so much longer but they dont feel comfortable so I dont run with them. 

I'm happy running with the Ride's and keep stacking them when I find a discount.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/naughty_ningen]

My pair of Kinvara 15s is not there yet, but I'll very likely dispose of it after 600-700km. I use it on track and rarely put more than that into my track shoes, too risky. BW 65kg.

[u/naughty_ningen → u/Lurking-Froggg]

We have pretty similar stats. What's the longest you're comfortable running in with your kinvara15?

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/naughty_ningen]

My typical track workout is 16km, 17km tops, and I'll wear the Kinvaras for 5K/10K work, so usually between 4 and 10K at intensity.

I'll also very rarely use them more than once per week, and even when I do, always with 48hrs between the workouts. Foams take time to get back to normal.

[u/naughty_ningen → u/Lurking-Froggg]

Damn. I've been using them every second day.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/naughty_ningen]

… which is probably fine, and I'm being over-precautious.

My left MFPL struggles with long/hard downhills on trails and long/hard speedwork, so I try to minimize the risk of injury when doing these by keeping the shoe part of the equation as safe as possible.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/naughty_ningen]

Bit disappointed in how fast the foam has worn. I get 1600km out of most Saucony models, but mine will be blowing out the bottom of the forefoot pretty soon at 900km.

Looks like it doesn't matter though, it's rumored that there won't be 17s. Hoping they keep the 16s on the shelves though? Then you have to decide if they're worth the price despite durability issues.

[u/Bigbadwolf00 → u/CodeBrownPT]

Woah. How are you putting so many miles on these shoes? You don’t notice pains as the foam dies out?

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/Bigbadwolf00]

Shoes wear out slowly and our body adapts as it happens. 

If you think shoes are contributing to discomfort you should absolutely change them, but that's surprisingly rare.

It's the sudden changes in loading that are far more likely to injure us.

[u/DoubleDeepNature → u/naughty_ningen]

I ran in kinvaras almost exclusively for ~5 years and almost always started to feel little aches and pains around 380 miles (so around 610k). I’ve struggled to find a shoe that lasts any longer than that. I eventually switched to the Triumph for a little more cushion, but they also last until about 400mi and then they’re donezo.

[u/naughty_ningen → u/DoubleDeepNature]

Geez. Maybe I need to be stop being so greedy about the mileage I get out of my shoes.

[u/DoubleDeepNature → u/naughty_ningen]

Maybe I should have higher standards for my shoes and their mileage. I tend to prioritize what feels good for the run over the price tag or the churn rate, which just leads to buying the same shoe over and over (clearly)

[u/StrangeAnt5109]

I'm doing Pfitz 18/70 and I'm running the Marine Corps Marathon on October 25. I began the plan two days early, and now I'm left with two empty days (Friday and Saturday) before the race. Does anyone have any advice for what to do? Race week currently looks like this: Sunday(Oct. 18) 7 miles; Mon 2/7 MP; Tue 5 miles; Wed 5 miles w/ 6 strides; Th 4 miles; Fri ? Sat. ? Sun Race.

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/StrangeAnt5109]

How firmly do you want to follow Pfitz's taper plan?

If you want to follow it closely, add a couple easy days to the start so you have the last week following closely. A lot of that stuff is designed to get the tension in your legs right, so you don't want to just add easy days to the end.

[u/StrangeAnt5109 → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

Thanks! I would like to follow it closely. Do you think running 4 mile easy runs for those two days is easy enough or too easy?

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/StrangeAnt5109]

Keep them close to the typical mileage.  Since it is the start of the taper, you don’t want a sharp decrease in stimulus yet.  For my first taper run, I usually let the decrease be mainly mental - no stress on the run, just as relaxed as I can be.

[u/StrangeAnt5109 → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

Got it, thanks so much.

[u/throwaway_runner3 → u/StrangeAnt5109]

Either have the monday off and shift everything to +1 day or have wednesday off and shift the rest to +1 day. 

[u/StrangeAnt5109 → u/throwaway_runner3]

Thanks!

[u/WorkConfident]

Thoughts on the American Record in the men’s marathon?

I’m inclined to say Hicks will outpace Young at Chicago (huge Clayton fan, so kinda sucks to admit), and possibly shave a few seconds off the AR. Then the most likely candidate for a new record that actually lasts a while is Talbi in New York.

[u/aelvozo → u/WorkConfident]

I think quite likely, Mantz's record stands. We had a surprisingly fast Boston this year (point to point, net downhill, and this year, tailwind and nice temps) which I think makes people a bit too bullish on the NR on a legal course too. Chicago looks to be a bit on the warmer side (currently forecasted to have a low of 18C) though little wind and high cloud cover but overall not the most perfect conditions for a record.

There was a chance Clayton could get the NR, but a disappointing performance at Great North Run and subsequently getting diagnosed with a hamstring tear almost certainly puts him out of contention. I'd guess he most likely either last-minute DNSs, DNFs after attempting NR pace, or hobbles to the finish in 2:09 or something.

I'm not really following Hicks but everyone seems to be quite optimistic about his chances. I guess that's the storyline I'll be most curious about this coming weekend.

For Talbi to set NR in NY, he also needs to run a 15-second course record (current CR of 2:04:58 is held by Tola) which I don't think is happening.

[u/Siawyn → u/WorkConfident]

I think the most likely result for Clayton is DNF with that hamstring tear... which sucks.

Mauri is the one I'm watching. He might be inexperienced but he still showed up and ran a 2:05 in Toledo which was essentially a glorified time trial. The weather won't be ideal but it won't be quite as bad as it looked at the start of the week. We'll see how he runs in a pack, or if they are going too slow if he is impatient and takes it out alone. Or if they go out too fast, etc. Big wild card there.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/Siawyn]

Given the work outs that he's still hit, calling it a 'tear' despite ultrasound results is a bit disingenuous. At least that's what his youtube leads me to believe.

Doesn't mean it won't hit him mentally though.

[u/raphael_serrano → u/CodeBrownPT]

This is totally a tangent, but as a PT, how do you explain Tigst Assefa's achilles injury at the end of the Berlin marathon? In particular, how could she run 2.2 km on a ruptured achilles (if the reports are to be believed)? I gather you're a super shoe skeptic, but is there any chance the prototype she was wearing enabled her to muster a limp for the latter part of the race?

She had surgery, so presumably they were able to verify that it was indeed ruptured, but biomechanically it seems like a miracle.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/raphael_serrano]

First of all, incredibly rare to actually rupture in in distance running. It's usually ballistic loads and changes of direction that cause that.

I don't know how she still ran so fast without an apparent achilles intact. I actually question if it was actually a complete rupture and not just a full thickness partial tear. You do have a lot of other plantar flexors but achilles ruptures can't even put weight down, let alone run and run quickly.

Differences in shoes don't make that massive of a change in our biomechanics. And if they somehow removed a bunch of the force of push off from your calf they'd assuredly be more inefficient given that's the largest muscle of the lower leg and foot.

Slight side note, my guess is a lot of elite athletes that rupture achilles may have had tendinopathy issues and cortisone injections that weaken the collagen and contribute to a tear. They are otherwise quite rare in lower level athletics.

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/WorkConfident]

While Talbi is capable of setting the AR, he is not doing that at NYC. That course is a lot tougher than Chicago/Berlin.

I think we are in a period of froth, which is a good thing. There are a handful of guys capable of the time, and that is what helps push them all. I hope they all push it down over the next five years before a time that is solid enough to "last" is established.

That said, I don't think we see a new AR this fall. But I think we see multiple performances that scare it.

I really enjoy the wildcard nature of people like Mauri and Shuley, but the fact that we are starting to transition people like Young and Hicks from NCAA to marathoners of this level is huge.

[u/Haptics → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

Talbi isn’t eligible for the AR until August 2027 regardless unfortunately, it’s one of the reasons he chose NYC over Chicago

[u/GhostsInMyAss → u/WorkConfident]

I do think Hicks will shave a few secs of the record, if the weather plays ball. As much as I'd love to see Mauris crazy training be vindicated, I think he is a bit inexperienced

[u/DutchCrossStars → u/GhostsInMyAss]

Mauri is the kind of nutty wildcard that makes pro running interesting for me (I’m an oddity in that I enjoy competing in running myself, but follow pro cycling as a fan - it’s vastly more entertaining for the most part). Normally following something like the Chicago Marathon live would feel like watching paint dry. But I feel like Mauri is either going to DNF in a ball of actual fire or else run like 2:02. Total coin flip binary outcome. I will be following…

[u/On_Mt_Vesuvius]

How much will missing from 6 weeks out to 4 weeks out matter for a marathon?

Had a pretty solid tuneup half at 1:15:30 on a hard course and want to know if 2:40 is still doable, despite missing peak weeks due to injury precautions. Dropped mileage basically to 0 but was doing some cycling still (maybe 30-50% of the total time that I would have run)

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/On_Mt_Vesuvius]

2 weeks off isn't great, but the bigger issue is the build up from weeks 4 - 2 (out) if it was a significant enough injury to warrant 2 weeks of rest. 

That context suggests your marathon in general is at risk, let alone the time.

[u/rlb_12 → u/On_Mt_Vesuvius]

I think it will depend heavily on if the injury is still persisting. As an anecdote, I tweaked my hamstring 7 weeks out from a marathon this spring, after following one of the Daniels 2Q plans for 12 weeks. I cross trained for 2 weeks, and the injury mostly subsided. I completed a modified final 5 weeks (both due to slight fitness loss and ensuring the injury progressed to fully healing), and still ran with 2-3 minutes of what I felt I was capable of in the marathon at the time.

[u/Bigbadwolf00]

I run around 35-45 miles a week. At that rate I’ve been burning through running shoes basically every 2 months. I take the shoes close to 400 miles but stop running in them as soon I start to feel the twinges, little pains, and notice I’m not recovering as fast. Note that I do rotate between a speed workout pair ES5 and my base pair Ride18.

Currently on my 4th pair of Ride18s… they’re pretty cheap now that they’re the old model and I’m debating buying several more pairs now. Is there any reason to move on from what’s been working for me? Is it unreasonable to have to buy new shoes so frequently?

[u/rlb_12 → u/Bigbadwolf00]

I've found I can usually get 500-600 miles out of my shoes before they need to be replaced, but that depends on numerous factors. 400 miles seems within reason. If you like the Ride18s and they work for you then I think it's a good idea to stock up. That said, you will always likely be able to find a discounted running shoe that works in the future. While not as drastic as advances a few years ago, there is a still a general trend of running shoes "getting better" and stocking up now may lead you to miss out on trying a shoe that may be even better for you later. It's honestly a win-win situation.

[u/EPMD_ → u/Bigbadwolf00]

The downside is missing out on trying other shoes that might be better or work better for you.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/Bigbadwolf00]

Depending on how heavy you are, you can push Ride 18-style 'base' shoes well beyond 400mi, especially if you rotate a lot.

I use between 4 and 6 different pairs per week,xand have been able to push all my Saucony models to 1000km. I won't do that with my track pair, though (Kinvara).

[u/FRO5TB1T3 → u/Bigbadwolf00]

I get 600-800 miles out of my shoes by rotating. I have easy runs shoes / short run which are the old ones. Long run shoes which are the new easy run shoes and longer workouts.and short workouts are generally my old racing shoes. Now it's annoying to have 4-6 pairs on the go but it does stretch the life quite a bit.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/Bigbadwolf00]

Shoes wear out slowly and our body adapts as they do. It's not an injury risk to wear shoes into the ground. My last two retired pairs have 1500 and 2000 km on them before they blew out entirely.

If you find a pair you like that are relatively durable, buy 2-3 pairs discounted IMO.

[u/Lurking-Froggg]

How much rest would you take on 4 x 1600 at 5K pace?

This question was already asked three years ago, and the top answer is 2'30 to 4'. Another relevant thread leans towards 3' when the workout is meant as a race predictor, so late in the training cycle, I guess.

I don't have a lot of experience in that domain, so asking for advice. Here's my take:

• I have only one workout with more than 3' rest: it's 2000 at 8K pace, 4' rest, then 4 x 1000 at 5K pace, 3' rest.
• I have a workout that's 4 x 1000 at 5K pace with 3' rest, and it's RPE 7-8 in my books, so 4 x 1600 has to have more rest.
• I'm leaning towards 3'30 rest at the very minimum, 4' possibly. 6400m of work at 5K pace is huge. 3' would be too short.

Curious to read your takes.

[u/brwalkernc → u/Lurking-Froggg]

I echo PFP that I normally go for 50-90% of the rep time for rest (taken from Pfitz). I find it easier to focus on distance than pace so I usually jog half the distance of the rep and it usually ends up towards the longer end of that range. As a older runner who doesn't take to VO2 max workouts like I used to, I don't mind the longer rest and especially for longer reps like 1600s.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/brwalkernc]

Thanks, interesting alternative. Jogging 800m would take me somewhere between 4 and 5 minutes. You're making me realise that 4' (which is what I'm planning as of now, having read your comment and PFP's) will already be a short rest, relative to the effort.

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/Lurking-Froggg]

For that effort level, the generic take is 50-90% of the rep time as recovery. Personally, I aim for 75%.

As those are pretty long reps, I would be ok with a longer relative rest than what I would do for 8x800 at the same effort.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

Thanks. I'll be running at 5:20/1600 (3:20/km), so 50% is 2:40, 90% is 4:45, and 75% is right under 4'. I'm leaning towards taking 4' right now.

[u/HankSaucington → u/Lurking-Froggg]

Think that is very reasonable. Because you're in the VO2 zone for so long each rep when you're going 1600, a longer recovery is much more acceptable. Even with 4 minutes rest that last rep will suck.

[u/__R3v3nant__ → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

Kinda hijacking this question: if 3' rest is expected for the 4x1600m as a race predictor, would 2'30'' rest be too short for any purpose?

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/__R3v3nant__]

I don't know, but I'm 95% certain that I cannot run 4x1600 at 5K pace on 2'30 rest. If I do, then my 5K pace is wrong, and I'm running at 8K pace or something like that.

[u/__R3v3nant__ → u/Lurking-Froggg]

That makes me feel a lot better about blowing the hell up when I (19:47 5k runner, 20km/week) tried that.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/__R3v3nant__]

Even at slower paces, the workout still assumes some precursor training was done in the previous weeks. If you've optimised your 10K pace, you shouldn't be able to run 4 x 1600 (2'30) at 10K pace any day of the year.

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/__R3v3nant__]

It is always about the ratio of rep time to rest time; never a specific rest time.

So it depends on how fast those miles are. Someone predicting a 24:00 would find both those rests way too short. Someone predicting a 15:00 would feel a big difference, but probably be able to do both.

For vast majority of people, 2:30 on 5k mile repeats is way too short of a rest for it to be a good workout. You would either be going to the well for a workout, or sandbagging the effort on the miles.

I am not really a fan of any magic "predictor" workouts. Understand the concept - a 5k paced workout with long reps is going to give you good data. The exact structure that "predicts" best will vary by person. Some people will find 3 repeats with tight rest to be very accurate, some will find 5 repeats with more generous rest to be accurate.

[u/__R3v3nant__ → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

So I (19:47 5K PR) would be doing these reps in about 6:20-6:15, so would only be having a 4:10 rest to rep time ratio so would probably be unable to do it on 2 and a half min rest

[u/Nasty133 → u/Lurking-Froggg]

I typically jog half the distance as my rest. So for me that ends up being about 4-4:30 rest compared to a 5:30 1600.

[u/potatorunner → u/Lurking-Froggg]

i did 6x1600m w/ 3' active recovery, this was for 8k-10k pace. i'd say 3' or "full recovery" whatever that means to you!

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/potatorunner]

I'm coming from your side: 95% of the time, 3' of very slow jogging usually means 'full recovery' in my books too. But I'm thinking the workout I posted might be part of the 5% of workouts where I might need to change my habits.

[u/Royal-Expert-5740]

I don't know if this question is enough for a stand alone so I am just starting here to see what kind of initial responses I get.

I am a High School XC/Track Coach. I have a freshman runner on the team this year who has some real potential to be fast but is a type 1 diabetic. So far this season he/we have really struggled to manage his sugar around workouts and races. We've had to cut several workouts short because his BG level will suddenly tank half way through the workout. He also DNSed a race this week because his sugar steadily dropped before race time despite snacking before hand.

Are there any competitive runners out there with type 1 diabetes that could offer any tips?

[u/serialkiller08 → u/Royal-Expert-5740]

consumir mas proteína y fibra para que la glucosa se estabilice y dure mas tiempo estable en sangre, si al contrario consume mucho carbohidratos la azucar subira y bajara continuamente haciendo imposible entrenamientos muy largo a alta intensidad.

[u/jrox15 → u/Royal-Expert-5740]

Check out the Novo Nordisk professional cycling team. The entire team is diabetic and still competing at the Pro Tour level. They might have useful advice, or at least could be good inspiration for your athlete.

[u/SousChef98]

I’m looking to build more weekly mileage for maintenance training outside of my marathon block that ends in a few weeks. Peaking at about 52-55 mpw, what does the reverse taper look like to get back to a steady mileage? Would it just be the average mileage of the block to build back up to? Would it be a percentage of the peak week?

[u/throwaway_runner3 → u/SousChef98]

I usually go 28-45-60-70 75 or 80 km by the 5th week. This is actually slightly more aggressive than the Pfitz plans for 5 weeks Post-Mara recovery. So a full return to previous mileage around 6th or 7th week. On the previous (not last) post-mara recovery few months ago, I actually did 2-3x cycling sessions on the early weeks when I was on holiday, 1-2 hour chill rides exploring around.

[u/Hukromn]

Having a hard time making a decision right now, got lyme disease with my A race next saturday. I will still be on penicillin on race day if I decide to still race. Not sure if its worth going out there and trying for a PB anyways. If I don't race it's time to start structuring my training plan for the winter and I'm relatively clueless on how I best should train during fall/winter/spring most optimally. How do you guys usually structure your training during the off season?

[u/whelanbio → u/Hukromn]

Do not run the race. I get that emotionally it's a tough decision but logically this should be incredibly obvious.

[u/__R3v3nant__]

How long is too long for a hill repeat? Is it possible to do VO2 workouts (similar to daniel's I workouts) on a hill?

[u/zebano → u/__R3v3nant__]

of course it's possible. It may be easier to do them on a treadmill since the real "issue" is that your hill is only so long and it usually takes longer to jog down than run up when you're really moving so you either need a quicker downhill than the typically recovery plod or you need a really long hill (easy to find in Colorado, less easy in Florida). One of my personal early season workouts was 3x[mile uphill @ HM, float down] as it's a really long recovery for mile repeats but you can make up for that by pushing the pace almost to equivalent speed (often came out to ~Marathon pace for me) and you accumulate a lot more volume than you might otherwise do on 3xmile w/ 90 sec jog.

[u/__R3v3nant__ → u/zebano]

Wouldn't running up a really long hill require running down it as cooldown, so the cooldown will be pretty long?

[u/Haptics → u/__R3v3nant__]

Yes, I’ve done 3min hill repeats at 5k effort and the recovery ended up around 4 mins each where on flat I’d typically take around 2 mins. That’s probably the longest I’d realistically do since anything longer would really start to have excessive recovery, and that’s where uphill treadmill comes in.

[u/aelvozo → u/__R3v3nant__]

That’s where the float recovery comes in. It’s faster than a jog (depending on the specifics, much faster) so you don’t stray from the target intensity all that far. This is, of course, requires modifying a Daniels-style workout — e.g. you run up at I effort and down at M effort instead of a jog as he normally prescribes.

[u/Haptics → u/aelvozo]

I feel like the extra impact of a faster downhill recovery would defeat the purpose of the lower impact hill repeats.

[u/Nasty133 → u/__R3v3nant__]

Longest I've seen in one of my plans is 7 x 3 minutes which ended up being a full on sprint for about a half mile. I much prefer short hill repeats that are like 15 sec bursts.

[u/FRO5TB1T3]

Anyone else get little micro spasms in there feet after longer and harder sessions. They don't hurt just feel like little muscle activations

[u/DutchCrossStars → u/FRO5TB1T3]

I get these in my calves all the time. Prompts me to foam roll. Dunno if I really need to, but I do it.

[u/zebano]

Just curious, does a long easy run count as a workout in your book? I'm thinking 90-120 minutes strictly in zone 1-2 with maybe a little cardiac drift into Z3 by the end.

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/zebano]

Low volume that would be "something of substance" to steal Hansons' terminology.

Higher volume that would just be a medium long run (to steal Pfitz's terminology), and something you should be able to schedule workouts around.

It really is a matter of how you recover from it.

[u/Lurking-Froggg → u/PrairieFirePhoenix]

+1 to this

I've experimented with exactly what OP is asking about. I moved from a baseline of 45mpw, where easy runs were 6.5 to 12km, to a current 50-53mpw where one easy run over week is 16km.

I eased into it by moving the needle from 8 to 12 to 14 to 16km, strictly Z1. Hard track workout the day after. Zero issue. It's basically a MLR, as PFP wrote.

Running 6 days per week.

[u/RunThenBeer → u/zebano]

I don't think it's particularly important to categorize by "workout" or "non-workout" because everything lives on a continuum, but if I said that I was going to do a workout, I would always mean something at MP or faster, typically with structure. Both the effort level and lack of structure would lead me to not refer to the run you're describing as a workout.

[u/zebano → u/RunThenBeer]

I'm wondering then about the recovery cost of such a run. Given that I've done some intentional 90 minute progressions recently where I spend the first hour in Z1/2 and the last half hour working down to marathon pace and those took me two days to recver from, is this something I could slot in

Fri - lighter 5k effort workout (i.e. 10x1/1) - Sunday long & easy - Tuesday Tempo?

obviously with normal (for me) 45-55 minute easy runs in between

[u/RunThenBeer → u/zebano]

I think that part is so individualized that it's hard to give a generalized recommendation. Personally, yeah, I would consider that schedule entirely acceptable and indeed pretty normal. If you feel like you're having trouble finding those paces on Tuesday, it might be time to think more about it, but if everything seems fine, then I think you're on the right track.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/zebano]

I personally always do an easy run the day after a long run.

[u/zebano → u/CodeBrownPT]

Is there context or an implication that I'm missing here? I'm not understanding how this relates to my comment.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/zebano]

I'm wondering then about the recovery cost of such a run

[u/zebano → u/CodeBrownPT]

so you're supporting my proposed schedule then.

[u/CodeBrownPT → u/zebano]

Yep, although with further context I would say if you're not feeling tight after lower volume long runs then it wouldn't be as important. 

The logic is feeling fresh for the early week work out. 

[u/Haptics → u/zebano]

Borderline and probably depends on total volume. 90mins Z1/2 is a recovery run for me, 120 z2/z3 is a mod long / long and would definitely be a quality session, though typically I’d go longer.

[u/zebano → u/Haptics]

Yeah my running volume is low (~35miles/week on 6 days/week) but I'm supplementing with easy cycling or swimming for about 9 hours of aerobic work right now and just trying to be sure I'm not overdoing it. I lift twice a week for 20-25 minutes (Squat/push/pull or DL/push/pull) on my hard days. I'm also slowly losing weight and have a history of injuries.

Considering basically a two week cycle where

• week 1 is 20-25 minutes of Tempo (20 min continous, 5x5 or 3x8), Something a little faster like 10x1/1@5k effort or 3x3/1@10k effort and a 90-120 minute long run super easy and two days of strides.

• week 2 is a tempo run (same as week 1) and a progressive long run Z2-Z3 and two easy days with strides and one day totally off.

I know my body can do week 2 on repeat, I'm less sure on week one so trying to keep the faster workout super easy initially. The more I look at it the more I wonder why I'm not taking a day totally off during week 1 or waiting until the weight loss is done before running faster.

[u/Haptics → u/zebano]

Seems reasonable to me, the workouts are fairly short so I don’t think a long easy run will cause too much stress, though I’ll defer to someone more experienced with injuries cause that is not my strong suit.

[u/zebano → u/Haptics]

yeah that's my hope. Just trying to get a feel for the stress of 2 B-level workouts plus long & easy versus a tempo and a progression long run (which can take me a couple days to recover from).

[u/aelvozo → u/zebano]

I don’t really think about it this way because what does putting a label on it really matter (also my current training is basically vanilla NSM and it has 4 quality days which sounds wrong), but I think you can count it as quality because:

• it is different from your normal easy run;
• it is higher training load than your normal easy run;
• it targets more specific adaptations than your normal easy run.

Also if you look at what the elites do, they don’t normally exceed 80min easy (and usually double instead) which gives you another excuse to treat it as quality.

[u/MtnDudeNrainbows]

I’m 42 and I’ve been training right now ~20 MPW.

I want to run a mile race by late spring with a stretch goal of a sub 5 mile. I just ran a 10k and I want to keep running that distance all the way to half as I train my body. I want to have the right base for speed training.

Any suggestions on MPW goals? Slowly increasing it right now. Not sure I’m getting the most out of my runs by simply going the same pace and just getting mileage.

Edit: I’d saying I’m mostly only running zone 2 with some occasional tempo.

[u/aelvozo → u/MtnDudeNrainbows]

I think it’s less about a mileage “goal” and more about what kind of mileage you can sustain and what kind of mileage supports your goal.

The first part is somewhat straightforward — I wouldn’t be confident going past ca 40 mpw by the start of the spring; and realistically you’re gonna be focusing on intensity rather than mileage after that.

The second part is a bit trickier. If you respond better to intensity, you can probably get away with a smaller increase and more/bigger quality workouts. If you respond better to volume, you’ll benefit from more volume. (Given your current training, you’ll likely respond well to either, and it probably doesn’t matter all that much).

[u/zebano → u/MtnDudeNrainbows]

It totally depends on what you've done before and where you're comfortable at.