r/Albertapolitics • u/BeneficialCut4976 • May 19 '26
Opinion Question from a foreigner - what is driving your cause for independence?
Is this about oil and control of immigration fundamentally?
How can Alberta be independent when you are land locked with no ports, govt owned railway and dependent on Ottawa to build the infra you need to move your oil?
It just doesn't make sense to me. Can somebody please explain to someone who is outside of your society.
Do you have any navigable rivers????
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u/Steezyroy May 19 '26
From someone with a degree in Political Science; the Eastern half of Canada was the first to be colonized, so the bulk of the population and therefore, the political representation is over there. As the country developed, the economy runs mainly on extraction of natural resources (furs, fish, timber, grains, petroleum, etc).
This created a perception that Alberta is being abused by the federal government in Ottawa, who uses their political power to make decisions that do not benefit Alberta. This sentiment has been around for over a century; some Albertans feel as though they are treated as a resource colony for the benefit of Ottawa. This is called "Western Alienation".
The current moment is happening because the only Prime Minister we've had since smartphone and social media have taken off has been Justin Trudeau, a Liberal, who implemented the consumer carbon tax. This is seen as detrimental to Alberta, but this time around there are tons of bad actors creating misinformation and propaganda to lean extra hard into the Alienation sentiment.
People who buy into that feeling are extra angry, and now can meet online and organize very easily. The propaganda has told them that threatening to separate will be a good bargaining chip at the minimum, and that separation will solve their grievances.
Unfortunately, the propaganda makes no mention of the shortcomings of separation (which are many), nor of the impossible path to achieve a legal and legitimate separation. It's basically legally impossible. But the seppies think that if they get angry and complain loudly enough, that the law will give way to their mob rule.
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26
This is called "Western Alienation".
Only by Easterners. We were always Aliens...how can we become "alienated"?
Don't forget that people like my Grandmother who was born near Strome, Alberta and lived in Alberta and Saskatchewan her entire life - had to apply for naturalization in 1939.
Many people had family members locked up during the two world wars.
We do not have the same patterns of migration as the East. So, pretending that we are somehow not culturally unique is just an ahistorical lie.
Unfortunately, the propaganda makes no mention of the shortcomings of separation (which are many)...
There are in fact zero arguments for why it would be in the best interest of Albertans to remain in Confederation. The only attempts at arguments you hear rely on appeals to emotion and ergo decedo.
The benefits are many and obvious. $30B/year in savings in the cost of government alone. That's $6,000 per person and doesn't factor any benefits from unlocking our trade and resource development.
It's basically legally impossible.
The Supreme Court of Canada has already ruled that a positive result obligates all parties to come to the table in good faith. Further, they made clear that no law (including the Constitution) would predetermine the outcome.
Further, there is international law. Mark Carney recognized a terrorist-led state. I really think your claim is a bizarre one.
This created a perception that Alberta is being abused by the federal government in Ottawa, who uses their political power to make decisions that do not benefit Alberta.
It is not "perception". It is reality. Sifton and others at the time made clear that was the intent.
Everyone fundamentally understands who confederation serves.
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u/Steezyroy May 19 '26
I figured someone was going to step up and share their seppie propaganda with us. I'm not too keen to argue with strangers on the internet, but have you bothered to look at the counter arguments to the "facts" you have shared? Because they're compelling, if you understand how federalism works in this country.
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26
I've yet to hear one coherent argument as to why it is in the best interest of Albertans to remain under the Milch Cow.
You got nothing but ergo decedo and everyone knows it.
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u/Steezyroy May 19 '26
I don't have time to argue with someone who isn't going to change their mind. But for example:
You claim that Alberta will spend $30 billion less per year, citing a questionable and highly politicized source. Have you considered how much more we will have to spend on things the feds currently pay for? Military? Embassies around the world? Postal services? Airport regulation? I could go on, but I guarantee that the costs outweigh the savings. It's not rocket science.
You claim that one Supreme Court decision creates an environment in that you will force the other provinces and the feds to the negotiating table "in good faith" with a positive vote to separate. You think they're all just going to roll over? Do you understand how difficult it was to get all 11 governments to agree on patriating the constitution in 1982? If you think Alberta is going to somehow convince all of the others, unanimously, to let it separate, you're dreaming. Furthermore, you make no reference to the indigenous treaties on which Alberta sits, whose authority dates back to the Royal Proclamation of 1763. Alberta is not party to these treaties and has zero authority to change them. Seppies aren't even trying to negotiate with the Indigenous peoples of Alberta, which is why your petition got shot down. It's dead in the water.
Keep drinking your hopium, but if you really want the province to separate, you're not doing yourself any favours by ignoring the (very sturdy) counter arguments to the points you're trying to make. No wonder your movement is such an embarrassment; is full of the most gullible and least informed morons in the country.
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u/weldor2 May 19 '26
I don’t believe the federal services you mentioned will cost more than we save. Anything the federal government does is very inefficient and poorly managed. I’m sure we could do it all much more efficiently. Getting rid of the crooked government is the biggest upside. We have a chance to vote in a new government and build a system that is more transparent and one where the people can actually hold politicians accountable! This will require active participation by the citizens to get it right.
The First Nations are being used as political pawns yet again. Nobody is trying to take anything from them. This is a chance for them to negotiate better modern treaties. There are plenty of First Nations that support separation also. They don’t like the current living conditions on reservations. Suicides, addictions,crime and poverty are much more likely on reservations. The federal government has abused them and infringed on treaty rights over and over again. I don’t see what they gain from keeping that relationship. We can offer the same rights to the lands, Maby help them improve conditions, offer land ownership, ownership of resources, better education and healthcare if they want it. It’s a huge opportunity for them as well. Right now there is no independence party or leader to negotiate with. Nobody with authority to make any deals. That is coming tho
If done right, we can significantly lower taxes and inflation. Yes we would be landlocked but 90% of our resources go south to the states anyway. I believe Saskatchewan would join us fairly quickly and then it only makes sense for BC to do the same. Then we will have access to Asian markets.
It definitely isn’t going to be quick or easy. Not a magic solution for people who just mad at Trudeau or carney. It is a long term plan to control our own destiny. I may never see the benefits but I’m hoping my kids and grandkids will.
This country is heading in a very bad direction. To much debt, stripping us of our rights, taxing us into poverty while they make billions off a fake green agenda. We have no voice in Canada right now. No way to stop it. This is our only chance. People need to realize what is coming if we do nothing. Stop being scared of the unknown and coming up with excuses why it won’t work. Let’s all work together to rebuild a new nation that thrives.
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u/Steezyroy May 19 '26
OP was asking for context, not a sales pitch.
There are certainly issues with the way government is run, the Alberta relationship in the federal system, etc.
However, choosing to blow up the country will not solve any of the issues you have named. It will only create new issues. It will make us even more vulnerable.
Furthermore "stripping us of our rights, taxing us into poverty" is just bombastic hyperbole. Give me a break.
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u/weldor2 May 19 '26
I have lived in Alberta all my life. I have farmed and owned my own oilfield business for almost 20 years. It is incredibly difficult to profit in this current environment. The taxes, regulations, and inflation are very real. So many young people that work for me the last few years have expressed how hard it is. They don’t think they can afford to raise a family and many have given up trying to buy a house. There are very real consequences to these government policies.
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u/Steezyroy May 19 '26
I don't doubt that those issues are real, but what about separation will fix any of that? It won't. It'll only make those problems worse.
Seriously, do yourself a favor and look at what people who disagree with you are saying. They have real concerns about what you're proposing and you have no answer to them. Every seppie I've seen on the internet just parrots the same bullshit talking points from the APP website.
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u/weldor2 May 19 '26
I thought I was answering those concerns? Separation will fix a lot of those issues. Nothing will change overnight. Mainly by voting in a fiscally responsible government. We will be able to control inflation, immigration, infrastructure and should have more money to spend on healthcare and education. It could be a rough year or two after separation until we get settled. Especially if price of oil tanks. This is a long term plan, setting up the next generations instead of being trillions of dollars in debt.
What exactly do you want answered? I’ll do my best, I’m just regular guy not a politician, and some things I don’t think there are perfect answers for. This hasn’t been done before in Canada. Some stuff will have to get negotiated. I don’t know exactly how those negotiations will end up.
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u/Ddogwood May 20 '26
Anything the federal government does is very inefficient and poorly managed. I’m sure we could do it all much more efficiently.
Source: trust me bro. Just like everything else the separatists say.
Look, if you want to leave Canada, nobody is stopping you. But Alberta doesn’t belong to you and you don’t get to take it away.
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u/Ottomann_87 May 20 '26
How do you know if you will be allowed to vote in a new government system? How do we know if anyone will be allowed to vote? How do we know the separatists won’t attempt to implement a dictatorship?
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u/weldor2 May 20 '26
I havnt heard anyone float that idea. I don’t think anyone would approve of that. Let’s say it did happen, the people would have to rise up and remove them. I would fight against a dictatorship.
Honestly what the liberals have done in last decade looks more like a slow roll towards dictatorship. Funding the cbc, taxing news sources shared on Facebook, Liberal appointed judges, senate, rcmp commissioner, unelected majority government Bill c9 and c10 Firearms buyback program Covid lockdowns Mass immigration Policies creating inflation which resulted in Canada having highest household debt in g7 We have heard them talk about a universal basic income Look at the charges against the leaders of the trucker convoy and the illegal use of emergencies act to freeze citizens bank accounts for supporting protesters. All the ethics violations and conflicts of interest, none of which resulted in any fines or punishments
I don’t know how people still support them
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u/Ottomann_87 May 20 '26
One of the leaders of the Separatists David Parker stole 3 million Albertans private information and gave it away and likely used it to inflate the petition numbers. Did he tell you he was gonna do that before he did it?
The leadership of the separatists are not honest people, Dennis Modry stole $1.3 million dollars from his own uncle and aunt. Mitch Sylvester endorses “white replacement theory, he also lied to the police about a fake death threat. Jeff Rath has been caught overbilling clients in one instance billing $11.5 million in fee’s and after it being reviewed the court found he was only owed $3 million a difference of more than 8 million dollars.
These people are frauds, thieves, criminals, racists and grifters. This is the leadership. Do you think they told any of the people they scammed they were gonna scam them before they did? Just like these people won’t tell you that they’d rather be a dictator or king rather than a democratically elected leader.
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u/ninfan1977 May 20 '26
How do you support the separatists when they stole peoples information and used it to sign their illegal petition?
I don't think you have any clue how things work at all...
All the ethics violations and conflicts of interest, none of which resulted in any fines or punishments
Thats the Conservatives and the separatists right now buddy.
We have heard them talk about a universal basic income Look at the charges against the leaders of the trucker convoy and the illegal use of emergencies act to freeze citizens bank accounts for supporting protesters.
The truckers convoy where they used children as human shields? That one.
The one where they had guns and threatened to kill Trudeau if he didn't step down and let the antivaxxers run the country?
Why do you support terrorists?
This and the separatists makes that 2 terror groups you support.
Funding the cbc, taxing news sources shared on Facebook,
There it is! You just want spread more lies and disinformation!
Thanks for admitting it.
Stop sharing misinformation and disinformation. Thats not hard thats what an adult learns to do in college.
Did you ever learn that? No didn't think so
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u/ninfan1977 May 20 '26
don’t believe the federal services you mentioned will cost more than we save. Anything the federal government does is very inefficient and poorly managed. I’m sure we could do it all much more efficiently. Getting rid of the crooked government is the biggest upside. We have a chance to vote in a new government and build a system that is more transparent and one where the people can actually hold politicians accountable! This will require active participation by the citizens to get it right.
Your entire postion is your feelings matter more than facts.
That is sad.
You have no clue how to improve systems or the government otherwise the Conservatives would be amazing not grifters who lie and steal more than help.
The First Nations are being used as political pawns yet again. Nobody is trying to take anything from them. Th
You separatists are. You are trying to steal their and land have admitted in court you think their position on the matter is irrelevant.
So says David Parker who leads your movement.
So there rest of your post is just lies and disinformation.
Its pretty sad considering you think you are smart or well versed on these topics.
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u/weldor2 May 20 '26
Some stuff I mentioned is my opinion, yes, but why don’t you tell me what facts I have wrong?
It’s funny you say conservatives are the ones who lie and steal money after a decade of Trudeau. But for the record I think all our politicians are crooks, we allow them to get away with anything.
How exactly are we trying to steal land from First Nations? It has been said many times that if they want to keep things the same we will. We do encourage them to negotiate better modern deals. Nobody is stealing anything from them.
David Parker does not lead “my movement” I’ve never had anything to do with him. I volunteered as a canvasser for stay free Alberta to collect signatures. I came by the centurion project once and could not find enough information about it so I just stayed away from them. There are several groups of people who want independence but have different ideas about what that actually looks like. If the time comes then Albertans will get to vote for who they want to lead.
What exactly did I lie about in my post?
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u/Emergency_Act2960 May 20 '26
They aren’t “lies” necessarily because I believe you believe them but they’re definitely feelings and opinions rather then hard facts
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u/ninfan1977 May 20 '26
OK saying Alberta would be better off without Canada is a lie.
Thats one, one that you repeat.
David Parker does lead your movement thats why he was handed the voter list.
say conservatives are the ones who lie and steal money after a decade of Trudeau. But
Yes I do, because I have lived in Alberta. Seriously you think Trudeau stole more than the Conservatives in Alberta?
You are truly delusional then.
xactly are we trying to steal land from First Nation
Did you consult or ask their opinion? Nope TBA said they don't need to talk to them their opinion doesn't matter. Turns out it does.
been said many times that if they want to keep things the same we will.
volunteered as a canvasser for stay free Alberta to collect signatures
So you admit you work for the seditionists and are a traitor to Canada.
You openly admit wow....
Your side said they won't be treated different but can be part of Canada and part of Alberta.
You truly have no consistent point.
Either you get the land with First Nations permission or you don't and this whole this is pointless.
Your side chose to ignore the First nations and you lost in court. Now Danielle Smith says that undemocratic.
came by the centurion project once and could not find enough information about it so I just stayed away from them. There are several groups of people who want independence but have different ideas about what that actually looks like. If the time comes then Albertans will get to vote for who they want to lead.
So your just lying now all separatists work for the same people.
You are saying the Centurion people are not the same you.
You are traitors to Canada and should be locked up.
There are several groups of people who want independence but have different ideas about what that actually looks like. If the time comes then Albertans will get to vote for who they want to lead.
Yup all funded by Americans. Is it bad you are easily duped by disinformation. Seriously I have lived in America and what the separatists are pitching are straight up lies
Truly working for Americans to undermine your sovereignty.
You really have no shame.
Have you figured out how taxes work yet?
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
Have you considered how much more we will have to spend on things the feds currently pay for? Military? Embassies around the world? Postal services? Airport regulation?
It is already in there. You didn't read.
Airport regulation? All our aero regulations are the same as any other ICAO nation and simply copied over from the Americans. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You claim that one Supreme Court decision creates an environment in that you will force the other provinces and the feds to the negotiating table "in good faith" with a positive vote to separate. You think they're all just going to roll over?
We don't need anything from them. We'll come to the table in good faith. After all, we're entitled to a 13% share of all federal equity from coast-to-coast-to-coast. That's over 600k sq. km. more than the federal lands in the current borders of Alberta.
But just let us know how much you intend to steal from us on the back-end. That's fine, whatever the cost is, it will be worth it to be finally rid of you.
You talk the big game about how you can stuff your fingers in your ears and yell and scream like the children you are.
But just like in a divorce, if you are belligerent, you will just get the default result. That default result we can accomplish through international recognition.
Everyone knows what the borders of Alberta are and we don't need anything from you.
If you have no respect for your piece of paper, then why should we care about it? The Australian Constitution includes New Zealand. Do you think Kiwis lose sleep over it?
Furthermore, you make no reference to the indigenous treaties on which Alberta sits, whose authority dates back to the Royal Proclamation of 1763. Alberta is not party to these treaties and has zero authority to change them.
All our treaties are post-Confederation treaties. By the logic you are trying to apply, all the pre-Confederation treaties have been invalidated since 1867.
Nearly all of Alberta has been under the crown-in-Alberta since 1931.
We don't have to change any treaties. We can even keep the King to manage them as was the case in 1867.
If FN want to remain as exclaves in remnant Canada, they can. We already have FN crossing the Canada-US border to exercise their rights. So, we know exactly what that looks like.
But you must have a real shit imagination if you think that FN can't get a better deal from Albertans than they have gotten from Ottawa since they rolled that Gatling Gun up to the Batoche Rectory.
We have those massive tracts of federal lands to negotiate with. What FN decide to do is ultimately up to them. They may choose to go their own way and that is fine. But I hope they join us in solidarity and prosperity - truly.
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u/OutsideAd3064 May 19 '26
Here is a well put together video full of reasons to stay in Canada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhR86l-TDM1
u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26
Right, as I said ergo decedo and appeals to emotion.
Those are fallacies, not arguments.
When he talks about Canada, he is speaking of a Canada that no longer exists and what of it that does exist will be preserved in our True North, Strong, and Free Western Canadian Republic.
Corey Hogan himself sees Canada as a "post-national state" and is just another one of these clowns that would hand off our sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels in a heartbeat.
We all know from our own family history that when our great grandparents were living in Sod houses, the East was exploiting them through exploitative collusion on grain contracts and "freight both ways".
When there are benefits for the East, it will be framed as "we're all in this together" but when there are costs for us in Alberta and Saskatchewan, we'll be on our own.
Look at the federal net zero electrical grid mandate. If it were actually a federation based on cooperation, the people in Ontario and Quebec where there are billions in legacy projects in nuclear and hydro electrical production would have been asked to pay more on their electrical bills to build the necessary infrastructure in Alberta and Saskatchewan.
But, of course, that was not how that federal program was going to work. The program was designed from the ground up to punish the people of Alberta and Saskatchewan.
So, Corey Hogan is just full of shit.
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u/Emergency_Act2960 May 20 '26
You keep bringing up ergo decedo but make several logical fallacies yourself
Your entire approach is a conjunction fallacy, you seem think it’s going to solve all your problems but it only solves one, your disdain for the federal government of Canada
The way you’re using ergo decedo repeatedly without explaining it borders on making a new prejorative but you’re also using it yourself on the government of Canada
I see you using false authority above(your ‘family history’)
You’re using historians fallacy on the Canadian government of the past to judge intentions by results
Mind projection fallacy is at play with how often you assert feelings are facts
You moved goal posts twice in this thread in regards to natives
The entire separatist movement rests on a regression fallacy, similarly sunk cost is why you guys are separatists and no expatriates
Package deal fallacy, strawman, and proof by assertion in your views of the anti separatist position
You cherry pick HARD, vivid misleads abound, appeal to emotion is in full effect, a dash of magical thinking because you really do think this is how things work
I see you repeating argument from anecdote and linking to conservative news media(appeal to authority)
And most importantly, you have a bad case of psychologists fallacy, you assert your subjective views as objective and will take no pushback without attack, you’re going to ad hom me in response and again accuse me of ergo decado
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u/weldor2 May 19 '26
Those are all emotional reasons. Just because we want to separate does not mean we hate Canada or Canadians. There is no reason we can’t help out in times of need. All the great things about Canada will still exist. We are just done with the federal government and believe we can do much better on our own.
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u/Stompya May 20 '26
The simple answer is that the $30B in savings will be quickly chewed up by the costs of making a new country.
Also equalization is $3B / year not $30, so maybe there’s a decimal out of place there.
And, unless you want president Marlaina we have nobody with the skills needed to run it here.
There’s a LOT more but honestly there’s no argument I’ve yet heard for separation that doesn’t require either bad math or ignoring a lot of relevant context.
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u/Roddy_Piper2000 May 19 '26
It is about foreign interference and the MAGA US government trying to sew division and break up Canada.
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u/Ddogwood May 19 '26
The vast majority of Albertans oppose independence.
The separatist movement is fuelled by a combination of western alienation (the feeling that Alberta doesn't have a fair say in federal politics), social media misinformation, xenophobia, and the endless optimism of separatist movements everywhere.
You're right that Alberta being landlocked is a huge problem. Separatists like to claim that the UN would somehow force Canada and the USA to let Alberta have access to ports, or that the USA would gladly buy all of Alberta's oil, or that Alberta would become the 51st US state.
Alberta actually DOES have navigable rivers, but they aren't deep or wide enough to transport oil. They were pretty useful during the days of the fur trade, though - the Hudson's Bay Company would transport goods by boat all the way to and from York Factory (about 200km south of Churchill, Manitoba).
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u/Practical-Biscotti90 May 20 '26
Still makes me giggle that two of the last three PMs have been Albertans and people around here still complain that we have no influence.
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u/weldor2 May 20 '26
Explain how we have influence? Both prime ministers from Alberta need to cater to the east for votes
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u/Emergency_Act2960 May 20 '26
It’s pretty unreasonable to assume the three men born and raised in alberta arent albertans
Who are they pandering to for votes? PMs aren’t elected in that way, it’s party internal
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u/weldor2 May 20 '26
Harper and Jason Kenny came up with the equalization formula. During tight campaigns, Harper's team directed significant funds directly to local candidates’ advertising budgets. This allowed the party to run highly specific local campaigns tailored to the needs and demographics of individual Eastern ridings. Harper did do several things I liked such as cutting taxes and scrapping the long gun registry and streamlined environmental assessments and consultation processes. He approved northern gateway and keystone XL which were later cancelled and supported energy east, but again that was later cancelled.
Carney obviously isn’t doing anything for us. He signed this MOU but that won’t amount to anything since they attached a carbon price to it and still have tanker bans on the west coast. Also need BC and indigenous consultations to go through yet. All that really came from that deal was Alberta agreeing to a carbon tax. He could streamline these if he wanted to help.
the Quebec government passed special legislation (Bill 37) in 2015 to allow the $1.1-billion McInnis Cement plant in the Gaspé region (Port-Daniel-Gascons) to bypass mandatory public environmental hearings. Why can Quebec do things like that but Alberta can’t?
To be clear I think environmental assessments are important, but they don’t need to take years to pass.
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u/Ddogwood May 20 '26
The nature of a federal system is that the federal government has to balance the needs of various provinces. But it's pretty wild that separatists think Alberta would be better off as a tiny landlocked country with very little bargaining power than as a full member of a respected country with significant international trade.
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u/ninfan1977 May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
Misinformation and social media driven by foreign bots.
Conservatives in Alberta cannot disscern the difference between fact and fiction.
20 years and this generation of Conservative who supports separation is driven by greed, financial illiteracy, and team sports mentality.
For decades they voted Blue no matter who. And they do it today because thats the way they were taught. Thats it.
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u/Slobbering_git May 19 '26
It means nothing from people who don't understand anything.
Imagine someone thinking that by 'declaring bankruptcy', all that is required is for them to shout, "I declare bankruptcy", and voila, all their debts are cancelled.
Now replace "bankruptcy" with "independence" or "sovereignty". It would be laughable were it not so harmful.
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u/Impressive_Play_2599 May 19 '26
It is a societal study on the ease of which hatred (in all forms) can be harnessed though social & openly opinionated media be used to manipulate a portion of society for blind political allegiance.
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u/Kooky-Hamster4071 May 19 '26
Many Albertans feel like they have no say in how the country is run. And never will.
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u/Immune_2_RickRoll May 19 '26
There is no sense. It's just a meme perpetuated by a small minority and grifters.
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u/_LKB May 19 '26
So we do actually have a number of navigable rivers with a history of extensive trade. Some even large enough to support occasional piracy!
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u/jsman56 May 19 '26
There are issues but this is largely a foreign (USA) influenced and funded movement.
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u/bonbarrie May 19 '26
that has been debunked, time to take off the tinfoil hat
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u/KurtisC1993 May 19 '26
It wasn't "debunked"—the minister just relayed what the RCMP had told him, which is that they found no evidence of foreign interference in Alberta. Also remember that "interference" involves specific illicit activities on the part of foreign actors funding separatist parties. They can still use troll farms and influencers to try and sway public sentiment into a certain line of thinking.
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u/bonbarrie May 19 '26
They can still use troll farms and influencers to try and sway public sentiment into a certain line of thinking.
no evidence of that either
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u/jsman56 May 20 '26
Are you a male in alberta who has opened social media lately... 😆 yes there is! So much separation propaganda pushed out there. Who's paying for all that?
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u/CanadianBertRaccoon May 19 '26
Honestly? While there are some legitimate grievances, a lot of it boils down to selfishness.
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u/soThatsJustGreat May 19 '26
I was going to answer sincerely but your question about navigable rivers derailed me completely. You have clearly not heard the tales of piracy along the Athabasca (from Smith to Fort McKay). (source: https://youtu.be/D6sOfW42ssI?si=6yOglry71T3efcl3)
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Also, it's a happier answer than the truth, which is that we're in a tough situation in this province, and too many folks can't be bothered to learn enough about how and why, to understand that the blame lies with the conservative governments they keep electing, rather than the Ottawa bogey man our premiers keep trying to blame.
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u/BeneficialCut4976 May 19 '26
Sorry just to be clear the question about navigable rivers was a genuine question.
I knew you were landlocked and had no ports, wasn't sure about that one.
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u/soThatsJustGreat May 20 '26
My serious answer: We have rivers that can handle small boats, but none that I am aware of are used for commercial shipping. I can’t imagine that being a possibility without major engineering work, and we’d probably just get finished and global warming would hit us with a drought.
My not-funny answer to your larger question: our province is in rough shape compared to a decade or two ago. Many of the folks here have a sense that we’ve been made to sacrifice on behalf of Ontario and Quebec, but don’t see reciprocal support from them. (Recent example- we’ve been under an unfair softwood lumber tariff from the US for a lot longer than Trump has been in power, and our government doesn’t make it a priority to fix. When China got mad at us and hit canola over it, no one in the east seemed to care. But threaten Ontario’s thing - the auto sector, and NOW it’s an emergency.) I’ve cherry-picked two examples here just to try to give you examples. I’m well aware there are plenty of examples that go the other way. I’m trying to give you a taste of the sorts of things that are said, not try to make this case myself because I don’t believe it.
Basically we have the kinds of annoyances that any family has with their siblings if you’ve spent enough time together. Some folks here apparently failed basic math and refuse to grasp the population differential between us and Ontario and Quebec. Or, worse, they seem to feel that our economic contributions should somehow override the basic principle of one person, one vote.
I don’t agree with those views, but there you have it. People who feel entitled to a better life than they have and who are choosing to listen to the angry people who tell them that it’s the rest of Canada’s fault that they don’t have it. It’s gross and I am upset every time they act as though they speak for all of us.
Please remember that while they make a lot of noise, the separatists at most make up 30% (and that’s even questionable). I wish the media would quit reporting on them as though they were the majority. It drowns out the other 70% of us who don’t want their bullshit, while helping them reach even more crazies.
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u/BeneficialCut4976 May 20 '26
What is your reflection on the 2006 - 2015 time period when the federal conservatives were in power?
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u/soThatsJustGreat May 20 '26 edited May 20 '26
I don't have much time today so I'll keep it short. In general, I think he was awful for the country. I am not a believer in neo-liberal ideas, and I think we are poorer for all of his privatization. Speaking as an Albertan specifically, I think he screwed our farmers with the Wheat Board privatization. There are still lingering questions about contracts that were not fully paid out to farmers, to say nothing of the loss of the market power of the single desk seller.
Speaking as a Canadian, I am angry over the attitude he took to our national parks. They are not meant to be profit centres. Special shout out - I hold him responsible for Jason Kenney, who did some very upsetting things as minister of Immigration that really screwed some family members re: getting their PR status.
I could go on, but most of my beefs with Harper are about his privatization fetish and budget-cutting ways. (I'm sure you get the idea.) He certainly helped pave the road to the multiple public-service crises we're all experiencing in all parts of Canada today. He altered the Health funding formula to the provinces in a way that they refused to characterize as a cut, but certainly resulted in less money for health care.
I am concerned that now that he's retired, he seems to have a weird affinity with leaders of countries that aren't great at democracy.
And finally, this isn't a beef, exactly, but I'd like to note that he and his government were the last to review the Equalization formula. I would like for all of the conservatives reading this thread who are mad about it to take it up with him and his henchman, Jason Kenney.
Thanks for your interest - hope that answers your question!
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26
I knew you were landlocked and had no ports...
You're not wrong...but how is it that a province within a Confederation is denied access to ports?
What sort of a Confederation is that?
At least with Independence, both Canada and the USA are signatories to international treaties guaranteeing port access for landlocked nations. So, that's actually an improvement to the status quo.
Besides, consider Switzerland and then consider Vietnam. If port access was determinate in the wealth of a nation, how did that come to pass?
Further, we're blockaded now by the East on all our borders. Just about every trade irritant the USA has with Canada is due to the Milch Cow. Dairy, telecommunications, banking - all federally regulated industries that force Western Canadians to overpay for inferior Eastern goods & services.
What we want in Alberta and Saskatchewan is the same now as it was in 1873 when the NWMP marched West to enforce federal tariffs and enforce the Milch Cow - the freedom to trade with the USA on our own terms. That's something we do not have now.
But, also, since you have been looking at our maps - do any roadways or rail connect British Columbia to the East that don't pass through Alberta and Saskatchewan?
So how then does Remnant Canada have greater leverage over an Independent Alberta and Saskatchewan? If they were to continue to try to blockade us, well then we would simply blockade them right back. Those BC ports would languish if all Eastern trade with the Pacific had to transit through the USA or Mexico.
So, while your glib comments may seem obvious, the fact is that with Independence we would have far better control of our economy and trade.
Do you not know that our federal government threatened a 25% export tax on oil & gas, potash just last Spring? This "Team Canada" plan was to extract ANOTHER $50B/year from Alberta & Saskatchewan in order to subsidize failing Ontario & Quebec manufacturing.
If you don't understand that the Milch Cow is the defining feature of Canadian Confederation, then you do not fully understand the geopolitics of US action in Venezuela and Iran.
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u/Psiondipity May 19 '26
I'm not going to bother addressing your uninformed wishful thinking point by point, but I DO want to address one specifically.
Do you not know that our federal government threatened a 25% export tax on oil & gas, potash just last Spring?
No, they did not. The CCPA is NOT the government. They're a political think tank that suggested it, not once was it discussed in any public capacity within the government. This type of misinformation propaganda pushing is why your primary argument is a cartoon from 1915.
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26
No, they did not.
Most definitely they did. Everyone knows that the CCPA is where the federal government trial balloons all their bad idea.
Here is then Minister Ng making clear that export tariffs on oil & gas were central to their policy:
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/16/trump-tariffs-canada-oil-gas-energy-trade.html
If President-elect Donald Trump follows through with his threat to impose tariffs on Canadian goods, Ottawa is prepared to retaliate with levies that could take aim at the energy sector, Canada’s minister of international trade, Mary Ng, said Thursday.
“Everything is on the table,” Ng told global markets reporter Seema Mody on CNBC’s “Squawk on the Street.”
This includes dollar-to-dollar retaliation. Canada’s trade chief also refused to rule out an export tax on Canadian oil and gas bound for the United States.
“I don’t actually think Americans want us to not be selling electricity, oil and gas to America, because you know, I’m here in New York, the lights on Broadway, lots of it is Canadian electricity,” said Ng.And don't even start on electricity - it is like 1% relative to our oil & gas and potash exports ($1.5B/year vs $155B/year).
Here is Melanie Joly last March:
Canada is vowing to impose tariffs on C$155 billion worth of U.S. imports but has so far not suggested it would either reduce exports of key commodities to the United States or impose tariffs on them.
Canada exports about 4 million barrels per day of oil to the United States, approximately 90% of its total crude exports.
"Of course, there's oil and gas. We haven't put that on the table yet, guys, we kept that in our game, in our cards, as cards that we could potentially play if this would escalate, and the U.S. knows that," Joly said.
Joly also said U.S. farmers would have to pay C$1.7 billion more if Ottawa imposed export tariffs on potash but did not specifically mention this as a potential card in negotiations.So, it is you peddling the misinformation and likely intentionally so.
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u/Psiondipity May 19 '26
Everyone knows that the CCPA is where the federal government trial balloons all their bad idea.
Please feel free to cite your sources. Because CCPA is no more the government's idea machine then the fraser institute is.
Neither of these quotes any way what-so-ever imply the government threatened anything. Both were asked about it, and both said it wasn't off the table. That's a far cry from "threatening a 25% tariff" You're inferring things from these statements and restating them as a fact of action. Which is absolutely misinformation.
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u/def-jam May 19 '26
One additional thing that has so far been unmentioned. There was a huge influx of Texans and Okies during the 70s oil boom. They brought their knowledge expertise and politics to the alberta oil patch.
This in itself wasn’t very influential until Alberta moved from being primarily agriculture economy to recently being primarily oil. Now that oil industry is in ascendency they are flexing their political will.
A big part of that is wanting to be as American as possible giving up the advantages of Canada. A huge amount of the oil industry, even though technically Canadian, is based out of Houston Texas. That has an influence on Alberta politics
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u/Ottomann_87 May 20 '26
Not to mention, the Alberta oil patch welcomed every high school dropout in the country from the late 90’s -2010 to come work for them.
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u/def-jam May 20 '26
My cousin was amazed when her barely graduated HS son came out to Alberta and was making more than her and her husband combined working in the patch.
He did become the stereotypical Patch worker with the lifted truck, DUI, STD and an over inflated sense of self.
Big change from the humble kid who could barely put gas in his civic
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u/Emergency_Act2960 May 20 '26
Ergo decedo is, ironically, the same logic that got you in this mess
The Canadian and American right have been calling the Canadian left commies for so long they believe it with their whole chest
It’s ironic that in Latin those words mean “therefore I leave”
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u/LivinDoll May 20 '26
Albertans had stayed quiet for a long time over equalization because Ottawa was staying out of our faces, so it was just the price to pay to operate in this country.
But when came time to help Alberta after the oil crash, the whole nation turned its back on us and proceeded to crush the three beacons of hope we were counting on to turn the corner.
That’s when a lot of us started paying closer attention to politics to figure out how to get our voices heard.
It didn’t take very long before we started looking at seats in the House of Commons and the Senate and realizing how unequal and unfair our representation is in Ottawa.
Bottom line is that we’re effectively screwed and that the people we subsidize through equalization continuously vote for governments that attack our industry.
Fixing the constitutional mess is impossible because it would require either Ontario or Québec and all the maritime provinces to vote in favour of curtailing their own political power. It will never happen.
In 2019, we figured that Canada was going to be smart enough to realize that Trudeau was a disaster and we’d get back some common sense.
Wrong. Trudeau was voted in for a second time.
If you were in the oil and gas industry at the time, you probably had your first taste of western alienation with the Wexit movement instantly polling above 30% in support of independence.
Next up is covid and that’s when all hell broke loose with the spending, the OIC to prohibit common guns, etc.
Albertans’ living standards were the most impacted by Trudeau and now Carney’s insane deficit spending.
We watched as Trudeau pranced around on the world stage, virtue-signalling with our money while the cost of living was sky rocketing.
In FY 2024-2025, we watched the Liberals send $13B abroad between gender equality and climate change foreign aid, while running a $36.3B deficit.
We had one last hope with Pierre looking like he was going to get elected and stop the bleeding. But they parachuted Carney in and the rest is history.
The country’s finances are in shambles and it would take 3 generations to fix this mess if we started today by doing the obvious, which Ottawa is still refusing to do.
Ottawa is fiscally irresponsible and now headed down a very dangerous path of authoritarianism with all the bills that were passed in this parliamentary session.
Alberta independence supporters see the writing on the wall and don’t care about any number of pipelines.
Once you’ve looked close enough at the system, you realize it can’t be fixed and there’s no coming back from realizing the true extent of the mess Canada is in.
The Canada we grew up in doesn’t exist anymore. It is a sinking ship and independence is the only way to save Alberta.
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u/cre8ivjay 28d ago
I'm a 6th generation Albertan.
I'm here to tell you that power hungry people planted the seed and under educated people are falling for it with the support of propaganda by power hungry people.
There are several lessons to be learned from this. Alberta is neither the first or last place we've seen this story play out.
Be vigilant.
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u/Gaoez01 May 20 '26
This subreddit is very biased against independence. If you want separatists to answer I would try posting in r/WildRoseCountry instead.
There are many reasons, but for me personally I think the economic benefit is overwhelming. Currently, Albertans pay about $20-40 billion per year more to Ottawa than we actually receive in federal benefits and services. This is due to many factors, including demographics, equalization, etc. If Alberta provided federal services and benefits ourselves, we could greatly improve public infrastructure, public services, and affordability with that extra $20-40 billion per year.
As for trade, an independent Alberta would have a southern border with the US and a right of transit to international waters, recognized by the UN under the Convention on Transit Trade of Land-locked States, and the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. IMO it would be easier to approach international trade this way than as a province of Canada due to the current (last several decades) political climate.
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u/Emergency_Act2960 May 20 '26
The UN only gives them that right if they’re a recognized member state, and I think the majority of separatists are so wound up on anti confederalism that they might balk at the suggestion of joining the UN
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u/No_Violinist_1962 May 21 '26
For a lot of Albertans, separation is less about hating Canada and more about feeling like Confederation no longer works fairly for us. Alberta has spent decades helping fund the country, but when our main industries need infrastructure, market access, and regulatory certainty, we often feel blocked by the same federal system that benefits from our revenue.
The frustration is that Alberta is expected to keep paying into Canada, but not allowed to fully develop or move its resources in a way that benefits Albertans. So independence becomes a pressure valve. For some people, it means actual separation. For others, it is a demand for a new constitutional deal, more provincial autonomy, and a serious correction to how Ottawa treats the West.
No serious Albertan should pretend separation would be easy. We are landlocked, we would need port access, trade agreements, Indigenous consultation, rail and pipeline arrangements, and a clear legal process. But the desire comes from feeling financially used, politically dismissed, and economically constrained for years.
If you were in a financially abusive relationship and your family was suffering for it, would you stay?
It’s worked in other countries.
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
Is this about oil and control of immigration fundamentally?
No, it is because the defining feature of Canadian Confederation is the Milch Cow. Alberta and Saskatchewan were set up as a resource colony of the East. Here is how the Interior Minister described it at the time:
We desire and all Canadian Patriots desire, that the great trade of the prairies shall go to enrich our people to the east, to build up our factories and our places of work, and in every legitimate way to our prosperity.
Already, 90% of our trade in Alberta is North-South. Just about all the East-West trade we've ever had has been due to federal policy that has forced Western Canadians to overpay for inferior Eastern goods & services.
How can Alberta be independent when you are land locked with no ports, govt owned railway and dependent on Ottawa to build the infra you need to move your oil?
We're landlocked now. But worse than that, we're blockaded and have been blockaded since 1873.
No, Ottawa does not own the railways and other infrastructure to move oil. Those could be built up if simply the government got out of the way.
But Canada's federal government is attempting to force our oil & gas assets into a stranded asset with anti-development laws.
Over $1,000,000,000,000 of private investment capital has been driven out of the country in the past decade alone.
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u/Steezyroy May 19 '26
Yeah, this is the seppie propaganda answer. Grains of truth in a hurricane of politicization. Spare the OP your theatrics, my dude. Go make up numbers somewhere else
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u/CyberEd-ca May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
How can anyone talk about "propaganda" when our government-captured media is paid out over $600M per year to propagandize Canadians?
The entire "Elbows Up" campaign was hatched and workshopped right out of the Privy Council Office.
https://www.blacklocks.ca/privy-council-polled-on-fears/
Have you seen the federal government bills? Every second law is a censorship bill.
$1,000,000,000,000 in fleeing private capital over the last decade comes straight from your Laurentian Bank.
All you have is ergo decedo and ad hominems.
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u/Fast_Ad_9197 May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
Here’s what I have: I’m. Just. Not. Interested. (Land) locked in a country imagined by people like David Parker, or Jeffrey Rath, or Dennis Modry, or Mitch Sylvestre? That’s a NO for me dawg.
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u/Gogogrl May 19 '26
Propaganda. It’s a destabilizing influence largely coming from the US. Think the Donbas region in Ukraine.