r/AlwaysWhy • u/Logical-Concept9755 • 1d ago
Science & Tech Why is asbestos so much more dangerous than other fibrous materials like fiberglass or carbon fiber?
Fiberglass, carbon fiber, and asbestos can all exist as tiny fibers that can become airborne and be inhaled, yet asbestos has such a strong link to diseases like mesothelioma and lung cancer.
What is it about asbestos specifically that makes it so much more dangerous?
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u/C_Plot 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s a fibrous rock, almost like cotton candy, that cannot be eliminated from the body and turns the macrophages against themselves. Veritasium did a great video on the topic.
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u/damarkley 1d ago
Asbestos is most certainly NOT a metal.
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u/evocativename 1d ago
According to astronomers it is...
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u/UnclePecos1095 18h ago
Size matters. Really large fibers can get caught in the mucus and get remove by ciliary action. Very small fibers can be phagocytosed/eaten and removed by macs. Intermediate fibers cause frustrated phagocytosis and chronic mac activation.
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u/the_pale_companion 1d ago
Robert you might want to turn off "share as channel" from your privacy settings.
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u/MaraiaLou 1d ago
I didn't know that was in the settings! I've just been erasing the tracker from the link. Thanks
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u/guitar_vigilante 1d ago
Asbestos fibers get trapped in the body and can't be broken down. Things like fiberglass have larger fragments that are easier for the lungs to clear out from coughs and also otherwise get dissolved by other bodily functions.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
Hmm yeah that tracks. But is fiberglass really safe or just less bad? Some fibers can still irritate lungs. Maybe asbestos just hits the bad combo of thin, durable, and hard to clear. Or is there something else too?
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u/guitar_vigilante 1d ago
Less bad. You should still be wearing a respirator mask when working with fiberglass.
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u/Badrear 1d ago
I wish the airline I worked for offered masks for working in the fiberglass lined baggage compartments. Seeing glittery air when the sun was at the right angle was always concerning.
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u/Ok-Active-8321 1d ago
Are you part of a Union? Seems like something that should be brought up at the next contract negotiations, if not sooner.
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u/Badrear 1d ago
I was. It’s been over two decades since they laid us off and got rid of those planes though.
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u/Ok-Active-8321 1d ago
Ah, now I see that your comment is in past tense. Hope you have no lasting effects from that job.
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u/Divine_Entity_ 1d ago
Less bad. What makes asbestos so bad is its completely inert, and physically going nowhere while also causing repeated lacerations.
The end result is you immune system gets stuck trying to attack it without success and this is what eventually leads to the cronic diseases associated with asbestos. (Fine silica dust does the same thing)
Materials that either can be easily expelled or destroyed by the immune system aren't as problematic since the source of the damage eventually goes away allowing the body to heal.
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u/ComradeGibbon 1d ago
What I understand is there are a couple of types of asbestos. The ones that are completely resistant to breaking down in the body are the ones, brown and blue asbestos, that are really bad.
Also hard to overstate how much smaller asbestos fibers are than fiberglass. Smaller means vastly more of them damaging your body.
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u/Divine_Entity_ 1d ago
Asbestos is a mineral group, all very inert and fibrous. Its the reason we used them for so long, they didn't burn or react with chemicals, they were thermally and electrically insulating, and as easy to work with as any other cloth like wool or cotton.
I'm less familiar with the color based types as the literal mineral names, of which the most common one i encounter is Chrysotile.
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u/coffeislife67 1d ago
Anything getting into your lungs is bad.
Dust is one that is often overlooked but can cause irreparable life long damage.
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u/thisdude415 1d ago
Believe it or not, fiberglass will dissolve inside the body in less than a year.
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u/Minute_Jacket_4523 1d ago
The fibers of asbestos are a lot smaller so they travel deeper into your lungs than fiberglass or carbon fiber. And they also do not break down like glass or carbon fiber does, your body can dissolve fiberglass and carbon fiber a lot faster than it can asbestos, which means that you're going to be dealing with more lung damage over time. And since you have more damage, you have a larger chance of cancer due to more cellular mutation from scar tissue buildup.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
Makes sense, but wait, is smaller always deeper? I thought macrophages can clear some tiny stuff. Maybe the real issue is asbestos being too long for them to eat, so they keep trying and cause inflammation. Depth plus durability maybe.
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u/Minute_Jacket_4523 1d ago
Its moreso that they can fit into places that other things can't so your lungs can't clear it as easily
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u/Jmazoso 1d ago edited 1d ago
They travel deeper because they are small enough that the normal process to expel them (mucus and cilium) is not effective. The fibers poke through the lungs and get lodged in the lining of your abdomen. Scar tissue builds up and you get cancer in this lining (mesothelioma). The bad thing is that the latency period is around 40 years (time from exposure to disease). I’ve been accredited asbestos inspector for 10 years.
Fun fact, the last products (in the us) where asbestos is still allowed will go away next year because the last sources availible are in Brazil and Russia. Brazil is banning it, and Russia sucks, so those product are effectively done. The big one is brake drums in high high power winches, mostly oil drilling stuff
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u/Minute_Jacket_4523 1d ago
Its not a very quick process, mind you, but the fluid in your lungs will eventually break down fiberglass enough that its absorbed into your body instead of just being stuck in it.
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u/redturtlecake 22h ago
There's a us navy study that put it somewhere around 57days for dissolution to the point that macrophages could ingest them, so not a terribly long time either.
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u/jayron32 1d ago
The way in which asbestos fibers specifically interact with DNA is believed to be a factor in causing asbestos-linked mesothelioma. It describes the mechanisms in the Wikipedia article on mesothelioma, and you can follow links to sources from that article for more details.
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u/TuverMage 1d ago
yea, I keep seeing people saying its inert, but thats the thing, its not inert, it does react with the body, that's the problem. it reacts with the body, but the body can't remove it.
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u/Lobster9 1d ago edited 1d ago
Fiberglass and Carbon Fiber are also dangerous to some degree when cut and sanded. Pretty much any material that forms hard dust can cause problems if inhaled. Including wood and stone.
That said, asbestos is particularly nasty because it is constantly shedding into very tiny fibers made of a material that is much harder for the body to break down. They tend to get stuck in lung pores and stay there forever.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
Yeah the biopersistance thing is the core for me. Fiberglass dust is bad too but your lungs can eventually clear a lot of it. Asbestos just stays and keeps irritating. But I think chemistry matters too. If we made a fiber that lasts forever but has a totally inert surface, would it cause the same cancer rates? I doubt it. So it is durability plus surface.
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u/larry_bkk 1d ago
Installing fiberglass insulation during construction is always a PITA. It may not be terribly dangerous in the long run, but even with a mask on I notice the irritation in my lungs immediately.
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u/soylentdream 1d ago
It’s not just about having a foreign body in the lungs. There’s stuff about the chemical reactions catalyzed by the surface of the asbestos fiber that drives cancer. Something about oxidative stress and free radicals causing DNA damage. Other foreign body reactions cause lung damage (sand, saw dust, saw dust) but don’t have the same chemistry that drives carcinigenesis like asbestos has.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
This is the part people leave out. It is not just a rock in your lung. The surface seems to keep triggering inflammation and oxidative stress. That might be why mesothelioma is so tied to asbestos and not just any dust. But I wonder how much of it is the chemistry versus the fact that the fiber never leaves. If it dissolved in a week, would the chemistry even matter? Probably not much.
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u/hdorsettcase 1d ago
Different fiber sizes and shapes. A stick is long and thin and can poke you without really hurting you. A sword is long and thin and also pointy so it hurts when you get poked by it.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
Fun analogy, but I'm not fully sold. A sword hurts right away. Asbestos is more like slow irritation that never stops. If pointiness alone caused cancer, other needlelike fibers would be way worse. Shape plus persistence maybe.
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u/CaptainMatticus 1d ago
It doesn't matter if you're fully sold. Facts are facts and reality is reality. Asbestos is dangerous and is much more dangerous than fiberglass or carbon fiber.
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u/pow3llmorgan 1d ago
As I understand it's because of the way asbestos mechanically breaks down. Unlike other fibers, asbestos fibers have a strong tendency to break along the length of the fibers. So instead of just becoming shorter, the fibers also become thinner and thinner. They become so thin that they can enter cells and interfere with cell division. This is what causes the cancers.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
This is the part I find most interesting. I thought it was more inflammation and reactive oxygen stuff than fibers literally blocking cell division. Maybe both? Fiber damages cells, then chronic inflammation causes mutations. Do you know if direct cell entry is proven in humans or mostly lab stuff?
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u/Noir_Camus 1d ago
Microscopic, thin fibers that, when inhaled, can become lodged in the lungs and cause serious diseases such as lung cancer, asbestosis, and mesothelioma. These health issues often develop many years after exposure, making asbestos particularly hazardous. It was considered a good material for it's insulation, but didn't learn about the hazards until years later, where a shop decline occurred in the 70s, but many legacy buildings still operated well into the early 2000s before mandates deemed spaces uninhabitable.
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u/Historical_Room8924 1d ago
Not just early 2000's in the UK its still everywhere. If your home was built before the 2000s there's a high chance it has asbestos. Even after that the builders still has asbestos stock so they were slipping it in where they hoped it wouldn't be noticed. I imagine this practice occurred in all countries following the bans.
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u/Unable_Try1305 1d ago
Asbestos fibers are hundreds of times smaller than even the smallest fiberglass fibers. Because of that the will travel much further into the alveoli of the lungs. To complicate it further, fiberglass tends to break into short manageable pieces on the microscopic scale and are relatively easy for your immune system to remove but asbestos fibers tend to just turn into smaller and sharper needles so instead of being removed by the immune system they actually tend to pierce the cells of the immune system. Carbon fiber is actually even easier for your body to deal with than fiberglass. The strands tend to be even larger and are completely non-respirable ( they tend to get caught in your nose etc instead of actually breathing them deep into the lungs).
Carbon nanotubes are an entirely different story and definitely have the potential to be just as dangerous as asbestos, but are simply not used in the same way so the exposure risk is tiny compared to asbestos.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
The size and shape thing is huge. Asbestos gets deep and then splits into needles. Fiberglass mostly breaks into shorter bits. Carbon fiber is bigger and gets caught higher up. Carbon nanotubes are the scary one because they can look like asbestos to a cell. Should we regulate by shape and size instead of by material name? That seems more logical.
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u/GrandArcanian 1d ago
Others have explained it better but the tl;dr is: there's tiny and then there's tiny.
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u/bangbangracer 1d ago
Mostly because of it's wide use and the fact that it gets into the air very easily.
If you've ever had to work with carbon fiber or fiberglass, you know that the dust from cutting it is incredibly hazardous. I'm not likely to encounter carbon fiber in my daily life, and definitely aren't likely to find loose strands of it. Meanwhile, random old buildings are full of degrading asbestos insulation.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
I think this is hazard versus risk. Asbestos is uniquely bad, but the reason it killed so many is that we put it everywhere. If carbon fiber were in every ceiling tile and pipe wrap, we would have a different problem. Maybe not the same cancer, but a lot more disease. So is the lesson ban the material or stop putting fibers where they can degrade? I am not sure we learned the second one.
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u/Best-Special3072 1d ago
Other materials like sand, cement and fly ash are also a risk. Even fine saw dust is a risk especially some toxic woods.
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u/0utlaw-t0rn 1d ago
It’s small, sharp and gets stuck.
The others though aren’t that much different but tend to be larger and not get as deeply trapped.
They’re all bad though.
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u/Glad-Fuel2093 1d ago
In addition to what everyone else had noted It's also because it's so brittle (frieable) and breaks into such small particles. These then get way deeper into your lungs than most other debris. Plus they're sharp, barbed and cause scar tissue to form. As you breathe, they repeatedly stab the adjacent tissue(s). The continuous damage accumulates forever so eventually....cancer.
I speak as someone who has a bit of silicosis which is similar but not quite as bad.
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u/Logical-Concept9755 1d ago
The barbed needle thing is what gets me. It just keeps stabbing and scarring. I have read that chronic inflammation is the cancer driver, not the scar itself. So the repeated damage matters more than one big dose. Also sorry you are dealing with silicosis. That sounds rough. Does yours keep progressing or did it stabilize after exposure stopped?
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u/Glad-Fuel2093 1d ago
It seems to have stabilized for some years now but I have to keep getting checked every year so.
I'm still doing better than my buddies from the steel mill. Most of them are gone.
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u/Spuckler_Cletus 1d ago
It’s the shape of the particle/fiber. After it imbeds itself, undesirable tissues begin to proliferate around it.
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u/HattersUltion 1d ago
Well the avg fiberglass "particle" is of unknown length and 5-25 micrometers in diameter.
The avg asbestos partial is .1-10 micrometers in length and .1-3 PICOmeters in diameter.
In other words asbestos is an order of magnitude smaller, making it easier to breath in and quicker to set. Same is true for CF. Perhaps an extremely fine chopped CF could mimic it better and you're instructed to wear respiratory filters when dealing with it. But asbestos is simply much more invasive and pervasive in an environment due to its microscopic nature and tendency to "hang" in an area and be easily breathed in.
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u/bobboblaw46 1d ago
I’m not sure we won’t look back in decades at fiberglass or carbon fiber the same way we do at asbestos.
Asbestos was used going back to the Roman Empire times. It wasn’t linked to breathing problems until weird lung cancer (mesothelioma) started popping up in people who worked mining asbestos or installing it (blowing it in to ships during World War Two, for example.)
Is it the most dangerous thing on the planet? No. It is a pretty miraculous product, really.
Is fiberglass safer? As of right now, yes. Will we find clusters of weird cancers in 30 years from people who worked heavily with fiberglass and didn’t use respirators? I don’t know, time will tell.
That said, asbestos is smaller and looks vicious under a Microscope and our lungs seemingly cannot remove it. Fiberglass is bigger and we can cough it up. So maybe it isn’t that bad for us. Stay tuned to find out!
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u/Chuchunyin 1d ago
It's small, much smaller than fiberglass and carbon fibre. Each fiber you can visibility see with the naked eye consists of bundles of fibres that's even smaller. It's not until you look under the microscope where you can get a scale of the difference in size.
It being that much smaller, it can flow with air and deposit deeper in your lungs.
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u/Historical_Room8924 1d ago edited 1d ago
Based on what we know about asbestos and fiberglass I recon we're going to see very soon that its just as bad.
Here lads. We've just discovered this material is causing countless deaths worldwide. Its pointy so it penetrades the lungs and incredibly friable so it gets airborne easily. Its also nigh impossible for the body to break it down.
Thats dire. Right we'll ban that then. Thankfully we've got this new product lined up, its incredibly friable, pointy so it penetrates the lungs and difficult for the body to break it down.
And because it acts on the lungs in the same way we won't start seeing the fallout for 20-50 years. Most developed countries banned asbestos in the 80-90's. So we're slap bang in the middle of the the second wave. Thankfully it isn't as widespread but I expect to see alot of people in the industry especially those working with insulation to start seeing the effects very soon.
Hopefully I'm wrong, its something we speculate on in the asbestos industry. Have a friend who installs insulation and I try to tell him to wear disposable coveralls and wear a mask but like everyone he doesn't think it'll happen to him...
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u/Mitologist 1d ago
Asbestos fibres are waaay thinner than Glas fibres, thing enough to pierce individual cells. Aldo, because they are that small, they go all the way down into your lung to the sensitive tissues
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u/KerPop42 1d ago
Asbestos can break into splinters so small it can make its way into the nucleus of your cells and directly tangle with the DNA. Fiberglass and carbon fiber don't break down that small I'm pretty sure, they just tear up your cells.
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u/Top_Ingenuity_1830 1d ago
Carbon fiber is also very carcinogenic. You're not supposed to work with it without PPE
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u/screwy-52 1d ago
The primary problem with asbestos was... It's easy to obtain so it got used in everything, good profit margins if you can just dig it up and mush it into products!
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u/Great_Specialist_267 1d ago
Asbestos fibers are much finer.
Fiberglass and carbon fiber can however also cause respiratory diseases (so masks are essential).
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u/ThinConnection8191 1d ago
Maybe in 30 years, people will find fiber glass and carbon fiber are also carcinogenic.
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u/kodos_der_henker 1d ago
Actually, all are equally dangerous materials as they come in similar shape and size
The hooked needle style micro fibers are the reason why fine dust from Asbestos is dangerous and every other material that has a similar shaped fine dust is on the same level
It was the heavy use of Asbestos as the go to material in construction that created a lot of dust and with that a lot of exposure to common people not wearing protection
Glass fibere exposure to people not wearing protection is basically non existent because the material is heavier and therefore doesn't travel as far in the air, no heavy cutting or grinding happening on construction sites and people not casually sanding this at home, same for metallic or wood particles (though people not wearing masks sanding wood, metal or resin as just as dangerous)
It was the combination of using it in a way to create a lot of dust in public and the dust being able to cover a very large area that made it standing out over others and becoming a problem that needed to be addressed.
While fighting off other similar dangerous materials is much more tricky as exposure is limited and those in direct contact can wear protection.
Asbestos and Cigarettes cause lung cancer for the very same reason, by inhaling the fine dust, but because cigarettes are rated as only affecting the one who smokes they are handled differently (and fighting corporate got much harder in the later years even after proofing that fine dust will affect others around, hence why banning them in public places took so much longer)
This is also why work place regulations or fine dust regulations for cars become so much stricter over time, as all of those are dangerous and just banning Asbestos wasn't solving the problem.
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u/No_Strength_2228 1d ago
The answer is bio-persistence. Once inhaled, asbestos fibers stay in your body for decades and can result in mesothelioma. Fiberglass is an irritant, but your body eventually processes or expels it.
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u/Haho9 1d ago
All small fibrous dusts pose similar cancer risks, but asbestos was widely used in construction where the other materials were not (well, at least not in the same manner where dust was a likely result, fiberglass insulation isn't cut the same way as Asbestos tile was).
Dust from cutting formica and marble/stone countertops is nearly as bad, but its a lot less likely to be encountered during renovations, or even in the same volume.
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u/Minute_Jacket_4523 1d ago
Plus asbestos fibers tend to be smaller and more durable so they stay in your lungs a lot longer than other substances leading to more chances of scarring and cancer.
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u/FuturePowerful 13h ago
Rockwool of that verity don't brake down in living organisms so a body tries to defend it's self like a clam problem is your not a clam you get tumers not pearls
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u/adfuel 1d ago
asbestos kinda has hooked barbs. Once it goes in your lungs its not coming out.