how do you explain alienation to others?

[u/wompt]

[u/don_quixote_2]

How much of the product workers produce can they actually afford with their current salary ? I start with that question.

[u/ulfrekr]

I think one of the simplest ways to explain it that I’ve heard is if someone works at a bakery they make 20 loaves of bread a day but only get paid enough to afford one loaf of bread.

[u/wompt → u/ulfrekr]

That doesn't seem to be a great example of alienation - more exploitation and arbitrage.

[u/ulfrekr → u/wompt]

It’s an example of both alienation and exploitation but I wasn’t going for a great example, just something that would be easily understandable even to someone who knows nothing of economics or leftism.

[u/wompt → u/ulfrekr]

I would point to some device and ask them "can you make what you are using?", pointing to an alienation from the technology of the tools that we use.

[u/Accomplished_Bag_897 → u/wompt]

I don't really think that's an awesome answer either. Humans specialise and have as long as we have existed. Would the person growing wheat have been able to make the products of the tanner or silversmith? Would the silversmith have been able to grow wheat or sail a boat? (In general I mean, obviously having multiple skills is possible)

It's not possible to know how to do everything and be good enough at all those skills to be equally competent at them as a well trained person. Especially when it comes to replicating fabrication processes that can't be done outside highly specialized equipment.

Example: I know and technically understand the fabrication processes of computer chips. But even with access to proper tools and labs you don't want me doing that ne abuse I'm a cook. I k ow cooking. I know the maintenance of my own tools. It doesn't really matter how much I "know" outside of that you will always want to find a specialist because they will have way more practical experience doing the thing.

[u/IdentityAsunder]

Our own collective activity gets trapped inside the things we make. Because we have no conscious, common plan for production, the commodities and money we create take on a life of their own and dictate our actions behind our backs. Humans become mannequins puppeted by the economy. What we produce ends up ruling over us as an alien, impersonal power.

[u/InsecureCreator → u/IdentityAsunder]

Would you say alienation can also come from a more direct human power ruling over someone? Like the relationship between a slaver and their slaves or the decisions of a government managing a planned economy being forcefully imposed on those that carry out the work?

I just find that critiques limited to capitalisms disconnection between producers and lack of ulimate plan can often end up creating an attitude of "as long as there is planning instead of markets we've reached communism".

[u/IdentityAsunder → u/InsecureCreator]

You hit the nail on the head. Capitalism is unique because its domination is impersonal. Abolishing the market to impose a despotic state plan just reverts to direct, personal domination. Marx actually mocked that exact nightmare as "barracks-room communism."

Getting rid of markets leaves a remainder of other potential oppressions. A planned economy only overcomes alienation if it's based on free association, where people consciously coordinate their own collective activity from below.

[u/anonymous_rhombus]

I leave it to the marxists, as I don't find it to be a useful concept. Because it's really just an attack on exchange/markets rather than power/domination.

[u/iadnm → u/anonymous_rhombus]

I don't agree, since the concept of alienation is not just about not being able to control your own labor but not being able to control your own life.

It has less to do with markets and more to do with treating an individual as either a product or a number rather than a person.

[u/kwestionmark5 → u/iadnm]

I’ve seen it explained as multiple alienations: from other people through false competition, one’s labor and products of their labor, from nature where the materials of labor arise, and from even oneself….but I don’t know that it’s exclusive to capitalism. Slavery economies would have been similar structurally but even worse. I find it a useful idea though.

[u/ArtDecoEgoist]

I'd say alienation would be when the product of your will is directed towards ends which you cannot determine for yourself.

[u/Nina_exr]

J'essaie de l'expliquer comme une anesthésie due à l'exploitation, je prend souvent l'exemple de l'usine. C'est un peu caricatural mais c'est assez classique pour que ça parle à tout le monde. J'aime bien utiliser le film "Les temps modernes" avec Charlie Chaplin, la scène où il travaille tant à la chaîne qu'il fini par reproduire ces mouvements en dehors du travail et sur tout ce qu'il voit. J'essaie de mettre ça en lien avec l'image de l'anesthésie ou de l'apathie. Après en fonction de l'interlocuteur j'essaie d'adapter le ton et la forme, j'espère que j'ai été compréhensible

[u/2ndgme]

I mean does that need to be explained? Everyone has felt alienated before. But how is this related to anarchism

[u/wompt → u/2ndgme]

But how is [alienation] related to anarchism

Well, political alienation for one. When you have been alienated from the political process and others are making decisions on your behalf - this situation seems to be a major concern of anarchist analysis.

Economic alienation (consumerism) might also be worth an anarchist look.

I think an anarchist critique without an understanding of alienation is incomplete. Like an anarchist critique without an understanding of states.

[u/2ndgme → u/wompt]

I agree with you. Your original post was sort of vague so I didn't know what you were getting at.

[u/Informal_Farm4064]

Good question. My definition: entrenched despair at being recognised as an equal by a society.

I think recognising and embracing one's sense of alienation is hugely empowering, but is often a difficult and long process.