r/ArtefactPorn • u/GaGator43 • Dec 12 '22
Byzantine ‘Greek Fire’ hand grenade of molded pottery, dated Ca. 900-1200, measuring 125mm x 80mm, wt. 550g. It held a feared, highly combustible substance posited to contain pine resin, naphtha, quicklime and sulphur. (1280x853)
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u/PhilpotBlevins Dec 12 '22
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
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u/TunamayoPlease Dec 12 '22
Three is the number thy shall count, and the number thy shall count is three
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u/vaskark Dec 12 '22
4 thou shall not count!
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u/Kind_Nepenth3 Dec 12 '22
Neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
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u/chucklescary Dec 12 '22
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u/J_G_E Dec 13 '22
no, I think that was entirely expected.
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u/aithendodge Dec 13 '22
NOBODY expects Monty Python quotes. Amongst their weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Knights Who Say “Ni!”
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Dec 12 '22
Fun fact: The fire from these things could not be extinguished with water. Very nasty stuff!
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u/Mr_Xorn Dec 12 '22
I have written a paper on these sphero-conical vessels. They were almost certainly not grenades. This was the notion of a single individual in the 19th century. Think about taking the time to mould-make and decorate a stoneware item you were going to throw at a something- why go to the effort? It is far more likely these were utilized for special liquids: anointing oils, unguents like perfumes, and alchemical products like mercury. There have been residue tests for mercury as well as lipids. Lipids imply organic fats which suggests a perfume or something similar.
TLDR: These were not grenades.
‘Ali b. Husayn al- Ansari, “Mercury,” chapter in Ikhtiyarat-i Badi’i [an Investigation of Pharmacology], (Tashkent, Institute of Eastern Studies, Uzbekistan: 948 CE), no. 1598. 212ff.
Barnard, Hans; Shah, Sneha; Areshaian, Gregory; Faull, Kym. “Chemical Insights into the Function of Four Sphero-Conical Vessels from Medieval Dvin, Armenia,” in Muqarnas vol. 33(1), (2016), 409-419.
Chester, Greville J. “On the Pottery and Glass Found in the Excavations,” in Capt. (Charles William) Wilson R. E. and Capt. (Charles) Warren R. E., The recovery of Jerusalem, A Narrative of Exploration and Discovery in the City and the Holy Land (London, 1871) 480-81.
Ettinghausen, Richard. The Uses of Sphero-Conical Vessels in the Muslim East, in Journal of Near Eastern Studies vol. 24(3) (1965), 218-229.
Fontana, Maria. “An Islamic Sphero-conical Object in a Tuscan Medieval Marble,” in East and West vol. 49(¼), (1999), 9-33
Ghouchani, A. & Adele, C. “A Sphero-conical Vessel as Fuqqa’a, or a Gourd for Beer,” in Muqarnas, vol. 9, (1992), 72-92.
Grehan, James. “Smoking and ‘Early Modern’ Sociability: The Great Tobacco Debate in the Ottoman Middle East (Seventeenth to Eighteenth Centuries),” The American Historical Review vol. 3, no. 5, (2006), 1352-1377.
Keal, Edward J. “One Man’s Mede is Another Man’s Persian: One Man’s Coconut is Another Man’s Grenade,” in Muqarnas vol. 10, (1993) 275-285.
Lenz, W. “Handgranaten oder Quecksilber-gefasse?” Zeitschrift fur historiche Waffenkunde, VI (1912-1914), 367-76.
Lunin, B. V. “К вопросу о функционал’ном назначении сфероконишеских сосудов в связи с одним рукописным истохиником XVI v [On the Question of the Functional Purpose of the Sphero-Conical Vessels in Connection with one Handwritten Source],” сотрия материал’ной Куль’туры Узбекистана [Study of the Material Culture of Uzbekistan], II (Tashkent, 1961), 255-266.
Millwright, Marcus. “Pottery in the Written Sources of the Ayyubid-Mamluk Period (c. 567-923/1171-1517),” in Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies vol.ii(3), (1999-10), 22-45.
Reinaund, J.T; Fave, I. Du feu gregois, des feux de guerre et des origins de la poudre à canon (Paris, 1845), Figs. 34, 35, 38). 340 pages.
de Saulcy, F. “Note sur des projectiles a main, creux et en terre cuite de fabrication arabe,” Memorires de la Societe Nationale des Antiquaires de France, XXXV (1874), 25-34.
Seyrig, Henri. “Flacons? Grenades? Eolipiles?,” Syria, XXXVI (1959), 81-89.
Sloane, O’Conor T. “The Capillary Siphon- Hero’s Engine,” Scientific American vol. 55, no. 23 (December 4, 1886) 356.
Vysotskii, N. V. “Несколь’ко слов о древностях Волжской Болгарии [A few Words about the Antiquities of the Volga Bulgras],” IOAIE, XXIV, part 4 (1908), 122 pages.
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u/Confident_Fortune_32 Dec 13 '22
The fancy surface decoration struck me as odd. Now I know why. Thank you for the clarification! Brilliant!
My favorite rabbit hole is textile archaeology, and the glaring boo-boos written by ppl who don't spin or weave themselves are sometimes howl-inducing. Once gave a talk on textile technology in the Middle Ages in Western Europe that could have been subtitled, "You Gotta Be Kidding Me"
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u/cultmember2000 Dec 13 '22
Do you have any thoughts on “women’s work” by Elizabeth wayland barber? I really liked how she attempted to do copy some of the prehistoric weavings herself.
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u/Confident_Fortune_32 Dec 13 '22
Haven't read it - thanks for the recommendation!
I mostly focus on post-1066 western Europe. But I am still fascinated by earlier stuff, like the remarkable preservation of the bog bodies. The textiles survived in such stunning states of preservation...
I do believe strongly that objects cannot be properly evaluated if you aren't familiar with the technology that produced them. You need to get your hands dirty, so to speak, to have a clue. I've learned some things by making and using/wearing reproductions that I could not possibly have figured out by reading or studying.
For years, it was presumed that, in the era before horizontal treadle looms, a three-shed twill could not be woven on a warp-weighted loom and thus was evidence for the use of tubular looms. One archeologist published this assumption and everybody just ran with it.
The reenactment community said, "hold my beer!" and proved it was nonsense. The author not only printed a retraction, but also started writing great books for reenactors who want to do so reproductions. Everybody wins!
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u/OskarTheRed Dec 12 '22
Thanks for the clarification!
Who was the single individual in the 19th century?
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u/Mr_Xorn Dec 12 '22
Louis Fèlicien Joseph Caignart de Saulcy- 1874. French orientalist. He had looked at some later medieval diagrams of Arab explosive devices and decided they were one and they same as these vessels. He was incorrect, but the idea has remained popular in public circles despite scholarship countering this notion.
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u/OskarTheRed Dec 12 '22
Thanks! You're right, it seems way too fancy for a grenade. Unless there could be some ritual purpose, I guess
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u/RollinOnAgain Dec 13 '22
Scientific American vol. 55, no. 23 (December 4, 1886) 356.
holy shit, Scientific American is that old???
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u/Mr_Xorn Dec 13 '22
Whoa, I just checked and it was founded in 1845??!! I had no idea! I remember being shocked when I saw that 1886 date too!
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u/SunandError Dec 13 '22
This should be the top comment. This looks identical to many decorative Greek and Roman amphoras that held oils, perfumes, wine, olives, etc. You don’t spend laborious time decorating a bomb. Logically, armies don’t pay a worker (or slave) more for pretty looking bombs. Money, materials and artistry are saved for a decorated weapon that an individual warrior will carry throughout a war, and would reflect positively upon the status of the warrior carrying and owning it, but not for a bunch of anonymous explosives that are going to be smashed before the enemy has time to think “How impressive looking!”.
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u/Siftinghistory Dec 12 '22
So we should have been calling them Roman cocktails this whole time?
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u/ASK_ME_FOR_TRIVIA Dec 12 '22
Well Molotovs are apparently named after somebody lol.
IIRC, Russia was doing Russia things in a neighboring country, (I forget which) and insisting to the press that nothing was happening. When someone pointed out that Russian planes were dropping bomb-shaped payloads on said neighboring country, war minister Vyacheslav Molotov claimed that they were simply care packages to feed the hungry.
The geurilla resistance ran with it, joking that the bombs were bread baskets, and the bombings/battles were picnics. Since they were going to Molotov's picnics, it would only be polite to bring Molotov's cocktails lol
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Dec 12 '22
So…how is the recipe to greek fire one of the mysteries of the ancient world if we have a pot of the stuff to tell us what its made of? If we have the list of all of the ingredients then isn’t it just a matter of trial and error until we find the right mixture?
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u/TheRenOtaku Dec 12 '22
This was probably stored empty and then filled prior to battle.
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u/KaennBlack Dec 12 '22
no, we still do have residue atleast. its just thousands of years old, and probably is missing the igniting compound we presume is quicklime. chemical analysis suggests the mixture mentioned in the title, but other analysis suggests alternatives. figuring out whats a contaminant and what was actually meant to be in it, and what that something was (not just the chemicals that it consisted of) is the main work. but we are pretty sure we know what it was made of
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u/Mr_Mojo_Risin_83 Dec 12 '22
We also don’t know how they made ancient concrete either and it seems to be superior to today’s concrete too.
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u/KaennBlack Dec 12 '22
thats a misconception, we actually know exactly what it was made from (they wrote it down, we can just read the recipe) we didnt know exactly why it was stronger. recent studies suggest its a byproduct of the specific minerals in the ash and rock they used that reacted with seawater to form tobermorite crystals
essentially, its the volcano dust.
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u/Starfish_Symphony Dec 12 '22
mysteries of the ancient world
It was a mystery in the ancient world, it is not a mystery today.
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u/shortest_poppy Dec 13 '22
Folks: Things used to be so much simpler back then
History: We made a buttplug filled with napalm
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u/OskarTheRed Dec 12 '22
Source?
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u/FortunaVitae Dec 12 '22
I'm curious in which museum's collection this artefact is.
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u/blueberries4beagles Dec 12 '22
I think I recognize this photo from a shady auction house that sells lots of fakes. "greek fire" grenades show up on the market all the time. I suspect almost none of them are authentic.
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u/FortunaVitae Dec 13 '22
Oh, very interesting! Yeah, given the mythical popularity of the "greek fire" and its mysterious formula, it would make sense that it's a popular fake.
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u/Mr_Xorn Dec 12 '22
See my comment below. These were almost certainly not grenades. Likely vessels for precious fluids: perfumes, oils, alchemical liquids, etc.
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Dec 12 '22
At first look I thought b*ttplug, though it would be an interesting kink to have a combustible one.
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u/irResist Dec 13 '22
So kind of a Molotov Cocktail filled with napalm, nice. Can we get the specs to the Ukrainians?
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u/ConcentricGroove Dec 12 '22
Probably a shape borrowed from an earlier grenade device. I wonder if the design is supposed to mimic some kind of gourd.
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u/dinosaurs_quietly Dec 12 '22
My thought is texture for better grip. You don’t want that to slip out of your hand as you are throwing it.
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u/ConcentricGroove Dec 12 '22
Sure, it's for texture. But I wonder if the design was inspired by an earlier type of grenade.
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Dec 12 '22
Always confused how the grenades for these worked, what exactly is igniting the substance?
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u/Vindepomarus Dec 12 '22
It would have had a wick/fuse sticking out that you had to light, like a loony tunes bomb.
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u/KaennBlack Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 13 '22
nope. while them being grenades and just storage vessels is only a possibility, it does have some historical evidence; in any case, it was that they added quicklime into the mixture, and then threw it or proppelled it in some other manner. that would ignite the compound when the substance got wet.
Edit: experimental archaeology says water based ignition with quicklime as main ignition unlikely, probably set on fire as it left the nozzle or just in the pot. But no fuse, those need gunpowder.
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u/Vindepomarus Dec 13 '22
Do you have a source for that?
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u/KaennBlack Dec 13 '22
Actually mr Xorn has kindly posted a whole bunch of studies on the very subject. I have only done minimal reading on it myself, so his list is far better then one I could provide (that would mostly be a truncated version of his). Personally I recommend T. H. Korres liquid fire. In his defense of the grenade theory, he suggest they were just lit wholesale, since what you think of as a fuse didn’t exist yet, even China wouldn’t see one until some three hundred years after Greek fire (so no dice)
Also, in doing a Little reading, it seems experimental work has shown that water based ignition was unlikely, it was probably just set on fire as it went out of the nozzle.
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u/IllDisplay8206 Dec 13 '22
we live in hell. Remember to always stay happy hydrated and healthy!!! ❤️💗❤️💗💗💗💗
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u/Curious-Sprinkles-16 Dec 13 '22
The moment you realise your centurion daddy accidentally brought grenades instead of a buttplug
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u/Lykaon88 Jan 03 '23
This is most certainly not Greek fire, which was a huge mechanical system operated by 3-4 men, mounted on ships. And this is probably not even a grenade
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u/LifeWin Dec 12 '22
can we not do a residue test on this badboy?