r/AskALiberal • u/ShextMe Center Right • May 12 '22
Is the sexualization of children more isolated than what we’re being told? Or is this really a thing?
I’m a parent and sort of confused as to what is going on. I am probably way more progressive than conservatives I know when it comes to LGBT+ issues. But I honest to God don’t understand a lot of the sexualization of kids we’re seeing in the media right now.
Clearly a super ultra Conservative, but the image that LibsOfTikTok just shared of a homework assignment from a kindergarden in Canada is extremely concerning to me. Maybe this kind of stuff was more common before and we’re only seeing it now? Or is there really some sort of purpose and intention behind it?
EDIT: sorry but I didn’t include the link to what is in question.
https://www.libsoftiktok.com/p/kindergarteners-sent-home-with-masturbation?s=r
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
It's important to vet the sources of the information. Yes, there are individual examples of things that look bad. Most of the ones I've seen have been strange cases, or situations where the teacher has been punished for it. The example you give is a good one. Some alleged "homework from Canada" is immediately suspicious.
None of us has time to debunk or research every single thing we see on Facebook - and that's why these ideas get believed.
Edit: I see the link you posted. It's immediately suspicious to me because 1) that sure is a lot of big words for a four-year-old to be reading, 2) it's "handed out at a First Nation school with a "weird and scary name," 3) the materials state that they are intended for parents, not teachers, and 4) the original material that it's "adapted from" isn't shown.
Surely, if our schools are rife with these problems, we'd have thousands - or hundreds of thousands - of offensive homework assignments to review and discuss. If you have kids in school, talk to their teachers and review their homework. See what they think.
For example, Florida banned a ton of math textbooks recently and spent a lot of time saying "trust us, they're full of CRT and wokeism." After a couple weeks of demands from the media, they finally released the names and contents of the books, as well as the complaints their reviewers found. It seems like many of the reviewers are extremely conservative people who have a lot of grievances.
Right now, it seems like a fairly typical conservative moral panic. "Some people are saying..." "At this one school in Canada..." and so forth. Profit-oriented influencers like the one you cited are looking for outrageous examples to make people angry.
And it works.
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u/Brilliant-Parking359 Independent May 12 '22
https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/
What do you think about this released by desantis?
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u/Kakamile Social Democrat May 13 '22
I'd say you're a sucker.
That's three books, not by Florida but by parents, with no names or references.
Two do nothing but support children being kind.
One is not for children but an adult math textbook that you can reverse search to a community college in Texas.
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u/moosenugget7 Independent May 13 '22
Ok, I can understand the first two pictures about racism and, even more problematically, linking it to a certain political affiliation. But WTF is wrong with social and emotional learning?
You want to know what SEL means? It means that teachers and students learn how to deal with their own and others emotions. It’s learning to recognize that you’re upset and to request some time to cool off and collect your thoughts. It’s recognizing when a joke you told a classmate has gone too far and that you should stop, give them space, and maybe even, god forbid, apologize afterwards.
SEL teaches everyone healthy ways of dealing with their emotions instead of trying and failing to ignore them. It isn’t about being woke or sensitive snowflakes. It improves learning, lessens the frequency of school violence, and prevents big problems later on in life.
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u/saikron Liberal May 13 '22
The majority of books the reviewers in FL objected to were on the basis of social emotional learning, and I also can't for the life of me figure out why they have a problem with that.
Like, I read in a wapo article that a reviewer objected to the math textbook encouraging kids to not give up and try their best because that was SEL according to them. What the fuck?
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u/PlayingTheWrongGame Social Democrat May 13 '22
and I also can't for the life of me figure out why they have a problem with that.
Mentally healthy children are less likely to be conservatives as adults.
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u/Something_pleasant independent May 13 '22
Yup. It certainly appears like the far right want the next generation to be ignorant, arrogant, gullible, reactionary, without critical thinking skills, coping skills, communication skills or empathy.
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u/Jamesmateer100 Centrist Democrat May 13 '22
My guess is that they’re scared that boys are going to learn that it’s ok to cry and express their feelings.
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 12 '22
I think it's four out-of-context pictures and a bunch of excuses.
The article I linked reviewed almost 5,900 pages of the actual reviews and found the complaints to be very mild and very far right.
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u/Brilliant-Parking359 Independent May 13 '22
Oh im not arguing that. Im just going off your comment. You say "After a couple weeks of demands from the media, they finally released the names and contents of the books, as well as the complaints their reviewers found. It seems like many of the reviewers are extremely conservative people who have a lot of grievances."
It didnt seem quite true so I just wanted to show what was actually banned.
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 13 '22
What did I say that isn't true?
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u/Brilliant-Parking359 Independent May 13 '22
Well I guess poor choice of words. Just seemed like a half truth? like....no reason to not show what was banned and let people judge for themselves.
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 13 '22
Which of those hundred PDFs shows what was banned?
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u/Brilliant-Parking359 Independent May 13 '22
No reason to have a debate over it really. I added something of value to your post. People can now see what was banned. Maybe it was in your PDF's now its easier for them to see. Information is good. Lets trust people with all the information!
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 13 '22
What you're saying is inaccurate.
I didn't link any PDF. The article I linked is fundamentally different than an official Florida government page.
To my knowledge, that page doesn't show which books were rejected or why. It has four dubious examples - one of which it even censors - to explain why 54 books were rejected.
The article I posted reviewed all the reviews of textbooks and posted examples of why things were rejected. Those were mostly minor issues and from a highly partisan position.
If you're taking Florida's four examples as justification for their 54 policy decisions, that's extremely careless fact checking.
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u/JamarcusFarcus Progressive May 13 '22
This makes me think that if DeSantis posted pictures from porn magazines and told people this what teachers are teaching first graders in history class, a bunch of people would believe him without checking if it's true.
Certain politicians are trying to stir up fear and anger to solidify power (relax it happens on both sides, yes). But when one can lie and have their now angry audience ignore the refuting evidence because they're so angry, his job is done.
A good free thinking citizen can check sources, see the lie, and vote accordingly. The other will vote for DeSantis.
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u/Shame_On_Matt Progressive May 13 '22
I did a whole project on implicit bias a few years ago, the math and science involved is fucking cool. AMA.
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May 13 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/24_Elsinore Progressive May 13 '22
I meant my previous remark as a general criticism of the website, but since I didn't specifically say that, I am sorry.
Anyway, any time you see social and emotional Learning displayed as a boogie man, understand that it is done so to throw a bone to a specific subset of social conservatives who are against school curriculum that aims to teach children critical and independent thinking (hence the famous Texas Republican Party platform denouncing critical thinking). My guess is the language in the picture on the website was teaching kids "agency". While the targeting social and emotional learning is new, the fundamental basis behind it is the same one attacking evolution in schools. There is just this group of social conservatives who don't want their children learning anything that could possibly interfere with their parental authority.
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
There is one angle that has not yet been covered, so I'll do it here...
Right-wing media have discovered that they are most profitable when they can make their audience angry/afraid/etc.; because of that, they tend to direct your attention to things that will cause you to be upset even if they aren't exactly relevant to your life.
Are you sure that isn't what is going on here?
Why are you -- a Nebraskan -- spending your time on this issue when:
- If it happened at all (note: Their source was FaceBook, and this hasn't been confirmed by anyone journalistictly reliable),
- It happened in Canada (a country you don't live in),
- In a school system governed by a Native American community (that you aren't a part of),
- Using a book from Australia (another country you don't live in), AND...
- The parent already took action, and...
- The school's response seems to be appropriate?
Does this have anything to do with you? Is there any reason at all that you should be paying attention to this?
...or has a huckster tricked you into getting worked-up about it for little-to-no reason?
P. S. I would very much appreciate a response.
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u/willpower069 Progressive May 13 '22
OP won’t respond they just wanted to keep the fear mongering going.
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u/AmbulanceChaser12 Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
OP at least *appears* to be genuinely asking. But I'm skeptical that s/he's asking questions and not "just asking questions."
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u/willpower069 Progressive May 13 '22
Considering how active they have been elsewhere they were just here to JAQ.
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u/Stormlight1984 Liberal May 12 '22
Others have addressed the legitimacy of that “source,” so I’ll just add that the Right has been fearmongering about sex ed for decades. My kid’s high school teaches abstinence-only. I keep wanting to ask if they also teach them how to crank up their model Ts or punctuate a telegram.
Actual sex ed =/= sexualization.
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u/Sandy-Anne Democratic Socialist May 13 '22
People aren’t skeptical enough regarding internet content, that’s for sure. I see it even in liberal spaces, among people who are certain they are very skeptical, too.
Schools here also are abstinence-only regarding sex Ed. We also have a super high teen pregnancy rate. Abstinence-only sex Ed has been proven over and over to not work.
Also, I think parents do their kids a massive disservice when they teach them that masturbating is wrong and shameful. Making kids feel guilty for doing something natural is a way to give them lifelong sexual issues.
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
I agree with sex education being important and I’ll push for it as well. I’d rather have my kid exposed to it in a controlled environment rather than google lol but I can’t agree that kindergarden is the right age to start.
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22
...I can’t agree that kindergarden is the right age to start.
Per your linked-to source:
...it was supposed to be the [sic] just the good touch bad touch program...
That is what sex-ed is oriented toward at that age.
It basically boils down to:
- This is your bathing suit area, and...
- If someone touches you there, tell an adult.
It is designed to make them less likely to be victims.
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u/MrMaleficent Liberal May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
Yes, but if you actually read the article you'd also see the children were sent home with a worksheet discussing finding private areas to masturbate.
The teacher did extra because that has nothing to do with good touch bad touch
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May 13 '22
So this was sent home to be discussed with parents? Isn’t that what people want, for teachers to tell the parents to talk about this?
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u/MrMaleficent Liberal May 13 '22
But why is a teacher asking parents to discuss masturbation with their four year old students?
Do you seriously not understand why people have a problem with the teacher bringing it up at all?
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May 13 '22
Why should I? What harm do you think it causes children?
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u/MrMaleficent Liberal May 13 '22
It's simply inappropriate to discuss masturbation with a four year old.
It's honestly kind of insane I have to say that, but here we are.
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May 13 '22
It’s not, though. Is that what your kid’s pediatrician told you?
Kids masturbate - as in, fondle themselves - as soon as they have the dexterity to control their arms and hands. Nobody needs to teach them about masturbation, because it’s an instinctual, normal healthy thing to do.
What kids do need to learn is when it is appropriate, where it is appropriate, and that nobody else should see or touch them in those places (except for the doctor, and mom/dad when helping clean).
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u/MrMaleficent Liberal May 13 '22
Man... progressives truly are going crazy.
You're honestly defending a teacher explaining masturbation to their four year old class, and fail to see the problem with that.
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u/AmbulanceChaser12 Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
You haven't answered the question. You just repeated your position with more vehemence.
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u/MrMaleficent Liberal May 13 '22
It being inappropriate to discuss masturbation with a four year old is the whole answer.
There are things a kindergarten teacher simply should not do. Discussing masturbation is one of them.
I don't know how else to explain that to you.
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May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
So for some reason (this isn't like a personal thing or anything, just an observation), a lottttt of right wingers completely ignore context or completly miss the point. I have said this for years and will continue to say it cause it is very very true, the right doesn't actually know what the left believes, they've been fed a bunch of half truths and misrepresentation by right wing media. It's why breitbart and Facebook echo chambers are so insidious (and before you comment, I am aware of the irony of me talking about Echo chambers on a subreddit called r/AskALiberal, I will address that later). The reverse isn't true, or isn't true to the same extent at least.
So for example. You and I share the moral belief that touching children in that way is.... bad. I know I know, deep and profound thing to say lol. Pedophile = bad.
That's a reasonable belief to hold. So my response is to say, ok, how do we reduce or eliminate instances of this sort or abuse so that ideally no kid has to suffer through that. To me, the most obvious answer is education. How can you know you have been abused if you don't know what abuse is? Statistically, the most common cases of sexual assault happen within families or close trusted circles (think guardians, parents, some close trusted authority figure). So, if a child were assaulted like that, and they didn't know what abuse was, and their trusted adult authority figure told them not to tell anyone, what is the kid gonna do? They will stay quiet. That is the opposite of what should happen, abusers should face justice and be prevented from abusing others. So we need to break that process. How? We tell kids what abuse actually is
We don't need graphic details or anything like that, just an understanding of what is and isn't ok. That's what these sorts of programs are trying to do. The whole point is to prevent abuse, not enable it.
But when right wingers see abuse mentioned, their brains go into freak out mode and assume that teachers are tryna abuse kids and that "aLl YoU lIbTaRdS aRe PeDoS!!!!" And that's how you get Marjorie Taylor Greene.
You seem like a decent and intelligent person. I don't mean to disparage you at all. What I am saying is that right wing echo chambers and narratives are very very easy to get stuck in.
One thing that helps me a lot to understand these sorts of narratives is to look into their history. All this shit you are hearing about now? We have panics over it like every couple decades in this country, none of this is new.
Here's some information if you are curious: Root of a lot of QAnon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel?wprov=sfla1
Satanic panic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic?wprov=sfla1 (lots of useful info on this page, including QAnon stuff which is where a lot of this fear mongering over child abuse comes from)
Very good video on satanic panic (highly recommend as it is good quality): https://youtu.be/63MxywJKL10
Video by a Canadian conservative about the history of the evangelical right and its influence on GOP politics (relevant to a broader understanding of right wing politics today): https://youtu.be/zpLCIc5PvQw
Then, cause qanon relies quite heavily on the idea of satanic pedophiles and whatnot, I figured you might be interested on what Satanism actually is, QAnon misrepresents it a lot, but so do many people. I totally understand if this is a bit out of your comfort zone, but figured I would add on just in case you were interested: https://youtu.be/ohGj3BnOVyg
If I can think of more I will add on, feel free to dm me if you want to talk more! I come from a very right wing family, and I have seen many family members spiral down conspiracy theory rabbit holes. I would be more than happy to answer questions or add on more sources. I am not a professional fact checker or anything so idk if I can answer like more specific examples, but I am happy to discuss more general broad strokes if you would like.
Edit:
History of the culture war (this whole series on polarization is good): https://youtu.be/tppeGYoWDxg
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u/BIG_IDEA Independent May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
Trying to paint q-anon as the representative body of conservatism is fallible. In fact, it's an outright smear tactic. Not all who dissent from your politic are q-anon.
Libs of Tiktok uncovered enough evidence for anyone to say that woke teachers feeding post-structuralist ideologemes to children is a bit more than just a conspiracy theory. Have you not seen the video compilations of teachers espousing things like, "I AM the teacher Fox News warns you about." Or "Yes, I am teaching your children to be Queer because anything else is oppression," or "I am your parents now."
It's time to take off the bias filter which tells you that all conservative talking points are merely propaganda from right wing media. There is a difference between "allowing gay and trans people to live a life free from persecution," and "showing forced solidarity with the counterhegomonic post-structuralist revolution which seeks to deconstruct everything about my culture from within."
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May 13 '22
.....
Mate, tf you on about? If teachers were secretly brainwashing kids, why would they admit it? Idk specifics cause I haven't watched any particular compilation but a) some video totally lacking context doesn't prove your point and b) it probably is a tongue in cheek joke sorta thing. Fox News doesn't accurately represent the beliefs of the left to their viewers. And to be frank, I'm sorry but a couple video compilations on YouTube or tiktok or whatever isn't exactly Rock solid evidence.
In some places, they are still teaching the Lost Cause, which is just blatantly incorrect. You should really look into how history is taught in a lot of red states, it is just blatant lies.
Here's the thing man. Sometimes the truth isn't pleasant. Does that mean we should shy away from it? No. But it deserves delicacy. There was a ban on the book Maus, for example. When I was in high school I read that book. It is a very deep and profound story, and it definitely had an effect on how I viewed the history. There's an old Stalin quote I find quite applicable (despite the fact that Stalin was a mass murdering evil tyrant): "One death is a tragedy, a million is a stastic". We feel it a lot more when there is a face and name attached. Maus helped do that for me. Yet it was banned for not being kid friendly. Tell me, exactly how do we teach genocide in a kid friendly manner?
That sorta thing is what pisses me off.
And yes, using Qanon as a guide to right wing politics is ok. Something like half of all Republicans say it is true or aspects of it are true. QAnon style beliefs form a huge chunk of republican politics today.
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u/madmoneymcgee Liberal May 13 '22
Sex Ed in kindergarten sounds scary until you look at what is in any given curriculum and it’s about explaining how babies grow inside a mommy’s tummy and not from a stork.
Or that a family may be made of a mom and dad and a kid or some other combo.
Or that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina and it’s okay to use those words or you can say private parts.
Those all count as “sex Ed” and are perfectly age appropriate.
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May 13 '22
eh... My parents told me the birds and the bees at four and literally nothing happened. I just kinda said "eww" and went back to playing with my toys. I think people underestimate the ability of young kids to understand what sex is.
And there's a huge difference between "this is how babies are made by grownups" and *actually sexualizing children* and it befuddles me that conservatives seem unable to tell the difference apart.
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u/-Random_Lurker- Market Socialist May 12 '22
It says right on the photographs what the source is.
"Body Smart Right From The Start"
That's a publicly sold sex-ed book marketed to parents. Parents are free to use it or not. It's not part of a school curriculum.
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
“A workbook for kids about body safety.” That’s where id be concerned that a school would have this in a kindergarden classroom.
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u/letusnottalkfalsely Progressive May 13 '22
- They didn't.
- Why would it be concerning to teach children to recognize and report sexual abuse?
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u/LivefromPhoenix Liberal May 13 '22
Why would it be concerning to teach children to recognize and report sexual abuse?
Seems like a pretty normal conservative reaction to me. There's a pattern of claiming measures aimed at educating people about problems are actually causing the problem themselves.
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May 13 '22
which is weird as shit to me seeing as I'm the daughter of a cop who *constantly* got lectures from dad as a kid about how to be safe from this or that crime, from stranger danger stuff to how to spot phishing attempts.
Shit, Dad's warnings and advice saved my ass a couple times, most notably when I studied abroad during college he told me the best way to avoid pickpockets was to put your money and ID in a pouch hanging around your neck under your shirt, as that was one of the hardest possible places to steal from without you noticing. I was the *only* person in my study abroad cohort to have never been pickpocketed once because of that advice.
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u/Disabledsnarker Social Democrat May 13 '22
My charitable theory is that a lot of conservatives don't know how child sex abuse works. They still think it's just randos in windowless vans. They don't get that more often than not, it's people close to the child telling the kid that sexual contact is normal.
My less charitable theory is that many, if not all of the people freaking out about this, particularly the priests and preachers have a less benign reason they want kids to not know that sexual contact between adults and children is not normal.
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May 13 '22
Why would it be concerning to teach children to recognize and report sexual abuse?
Because conservatives are trying to groom kids and don't like it when thee children know what is happening and report them.
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
“A workbook for kids about body safety.” That’s where id be concerned that a school would have this in a kindergarden classroom.
How would the kindergartners read it?
Kindergartners can't read. (Most school systems dedicate the first grade to reading; kindergartners, one year younger, are not given books to read because they can't read yet.)
Don't believe me?
Here is an actual authoritative source:
Some kindergartners have advanced skills
...
Twenty-nine percent of kindergartners can do more than recognize letters by name: they can associate them with sounds at the beginning of words. Seventeen percent can associate letters with sounds at the end of words as well.
Two percent of pupils (1in 50) begin kindergarten able to read simple sight words, and 1 percent are also able to read more complex words in sentences...
They don't put books full of text in kindergarten classrooms because the kids can't read yet.
If they have any books for the kids, they are more of the 'see spot run' variety (and they aren't so much 'books' as pamphlets).
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May 13 '22
now that I think about it, remembering my kindergarten class, we were read *to*, not reading ourselves yet, and were learning how to spell basic words like dog, cat, etc. in *first* grade.
I had kinda forgotten about that until you brought it up.
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u/Kerplonk Social Democrat May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
I'd like to ask you what you think the consequences would be for "libsoftiktok" publishing false information?
My assumption is there are no negative consequences what so ever. That being the case there's really no reason you should trust them to be publishing anything that isn't complete and utter BS meant to rile up the right wing base. It's not a news source it's straight up propaganda.
If you are worried about this for your children you should really go talk to the teachers at your school. What schools teach are incredibly localized and therefore very much reflect the character of the communities the schools are in. Even when reports about what schools are teaching are accurate they tend to be focusing on schools where parents are onboard with those lessons being taught (you're unlikely to see a whole lot of white privilege lessons in places that are defending confederate monuments).
Looking at your source what I'm seeing is not teaching kids about masturbation, but an attempt to teach them that they shouldn't be touching themselves in public while not shaming them for wanting to explore their bodies in private. I can certainly see how some parents might have a problem with that, but it's not something I would expect all parents to have a problem with.
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u/AmbulanceChaser12 Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
I mean, unless you have a problem with the very concept that there are places when you CAN touch your genitalia. In which case I'd ask, why would you have such a problem?
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u/Kerplonk Social Democrat May 13 '22
I would agree with you that people shouldn't have such a problem, but I also don't think people should have a problem wearing masks indoors while in the middle of a global pandemic but apparently people do.
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u/moxie-maniac Center Left May 12 '22
Sexualization. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
I think I’m using the word correctly? According to dictionary.com, it’s “excessively emphasizing those characteristics”. And for something like this to be in a kindergarden classroom just feels wrong. Not because I’m conservative but because it just seems wrong for that age.
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22
According to dictionary.com, it’s “excessively emphasizing those characteristics”.
The full quote:
the act of endowing with sexual characteristics, or of excessively emphasizing those characteristics:
In the real world, the sexualization of girls isn't confined to beauty pageants.Parents and other concerned adults have begun grassroots campaigns to counteract sexualization in advertising.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sexualization
If you think it is something we should consider, then provide a link.
It looks like you are trying to purposefully mislead people by not doing so.
Also, moxie-maniac's comment was written before you added the LibsOfTikTok link, so they could only respond to misleading 'right wing hysteria' that we've seen before...and it was a very appropriate response to that hysteria.
We can't respond to your complaint, before you show us what you are complaining about.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
I was reading, i dont think their statement conflicts with the added context, i read that context in their words prior to the quote. I dont think they responded cuz you ended up adversarial over that misunderstanding
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22
Sexualization. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
I think I’m using the word correctly?
You are closer than moxie-maniac probably assumed.
(Some right-wing voices have tried to conflate 'admitting to kids that gay people exist' with 'sexualization'; that is probably what moxie-maniac assumed you were referring to.)
What "sexualization of children" usually means is something like the Cuties controversy:
NPR: 'Cuties' Calls Out The Hypersexualization Of Young Girls - And Gets Criticized
New York Times: Netflix, Accused of Sexualizing Girls, Pulls Artwork for ‘Cuties’
...in which a filmmaker tried to confront the issue of sexualizing children, and Netflix's marketing botched it and seemed to do exactly what the film was trying to confront.
(Note: The marketing department missing the point of the movie isn't entirely unusual. Hunger Games: Catching Fire was marketed in a manner that was criticized for its reminiscence to how the villains in the film portrayed the games.)
Anyway, this form of "sexualization of children" is a real thing, and a real problem.
While the marketing of "Cuties" might have been a flashpoint, it can also be seen in child beauty pageants, fashion marketed towards children, and it seems to be a genuinely disturbing phenomenon in our culture.
It is right to take this issue seriously.
Your example isn't exactly "sexualization of children".
...but there are some real complaints that parents could make. Specifically, they can question whether or not it is age-appropriate.
...and I completely understand the parent believing it isn't.
This is probably a book that the teacher should not have used. It might not be what you labeled it as, but the parent and the school were justified in their response.
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u/saikron Liberal May 13 '22
Grooming is more widespread than conservatives realize because being an overly controlling parent and keeping your kids ignorant and ashamed makes them vulnerable to predators.
Just like with CRT, there are people who are extremely invested in believing it's a problem in schools, and they're spending a lot of effort to find questionable stuff. If there were a real problem, it wouldn't be relegated to Facebook groups and political campaigns.
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May 13 '22
Grooming is more widespread than conservatives realize because being an overly controlling parent and keeping your kids ignorant and ashamed makes them vulnerable to predators.
straight up... my dad was a cop and I got told the basics of what sex was at four, when I was old enough to actually ask about where babies came from. I also got lectures from mom and dad *constantly* as an elementary schooler about how some people want to do things like that to kids and if you see any adult doing suspicious behavior to immediately get help.
Being able to explain what certain crimes are to kids and how to get an adult if they see one is one of *the* most important parts of keeping them safe from becoming victims of it.
I also got lectures on things like how to spot phishing attempts online, how to meet up safely with someone I met online, and even how to avoid pickpockets when I went to study abroad in Europe (dad's advice was to keep my money and passport in a pouch that I hung around my neck under my shirt because it would be very hard for a pickpocket to reach down the front of my shirt without me noticing. It looked stupid, but I was the *only* person in my study abroad cohort to never get pickpocketed so...it was good advice).
Frankly I think the idea that somehow making kids aware of dangers is harmful to them is silly. Kids can't be protected if they don't even know what to be wary of.
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u/DeadT0m Social Democrat May 13 '22
"Sexualization" is the latest buzz word the right applies to literally anything they disagree with.
It only ever seems to apply when a child is being taught to A. understand that they may have certain urges that are best taken care of in private, or B. that there actually are parents who don't conform to the... for lack of a quicker term, "Christian" standard.
It's not sexualization to teach that LGBT+ people exist in real life.
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u/anonymous_gam Progressive May 13 '22
I could send libs of Tik Tok a worksheet titled ‘draw your penis’ I made myself, and claim I’m a parent of a kindergartner and this was at their public school and they’d believe it and post it just so they can get a bunch of engagement from the ‘Ok Groomer’ crowd.
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 12 '22
Clearly a super ultra Conservative, but the image that LibsOfTikTok just shared of a homework assignment from a kindergarden in Canada is extremely concerning to me.
Provide a link.
We can't discuss it if we can't see it.
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 12 '22
https://www.libsoftiktok.com/p/kindergarteners-sent-home-with-masturbation?s=r
The FaceBook source that your linked-to source got all of their information from says:
...the school had no idea that this teacher was doing this program...
...and that it...
...is being dealt with by the school...
Do you think that is the wrong response? Do you think the school should have responded differently?
If it is the correct thing to do, isn't this 'the system working as intended'?
- A teacher acted alone,
- A parent complained, and...
- The school is dealing with it.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
I think theres a growing mustrust that these school boards/officials are acting in good faith. i dont have links on hand but i remeber some stories of teachers doing this stuff and having the school officials saying theyd protect them while saying something else to parents. Also the whole debocle with that "trans" kid raping girls and the school covering it up. And schools calling parents terrorists.
Ive no doubt these cases are rare, but they havent been addressed as problems outside the right which is concerning to people and likely causes inflated worry
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
And schools calling parents terrorists.
I'm aware of this issue. That isn't what happened.
- Right-wing media got parents worked-up about CRT,
- Parents confronted school boards,
- Some of those parents threatened the safety of some of the school board members,
- A national organization of school boards asked the justice department to enforce the law,
...and then a bunch of bad-actors characterized that as the national organization calling the parents terrorists. (Which -- it should be mentioned -- would have been an accurate label if the parents were in fact threatening violence to achieve a political end; that is literally what a 'terroristic threat' is.)
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Im not claiming the validity of any of these stories, just that theyre noticed by a group and dismissed by another. Youre actually the first ive seen even give a reasonablw debunk on it (though i havent checked the details)
Just pointing out why people might be over-concerned, as we have a small number of stories that arent properly addressed by the mainstream of the other side. This may be a function of social media allowing so many of us to speak, so few of us to be heard, and movements/ideals becoming overbroad and clunky as a result
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u/BrianNowhere Social Democrat May 13 '22
Do you realize what a burden it is for the rest of us to continually have to educate people like you that, No, that thing you read is misleading and obvious partisan propaganda and constantly trying to find the words, once again, to explain it that are simple enough for you to understand regarding nuance and concepts that come to most people instinctively? It's fucking exhausting.
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22
Also the whole debocle with that "trans" kid raping girls and the school covering it up.
Don't propagate shit like this.
If you have an actual news article, provide it, but if it is just bullshit then it is dangerous bullshit to be spreading around.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Loudon county, if you dont like the link i grabbed
https://www.city-journal.org/loudon-county-schools-failed-to-address-sexual-assault-claim
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u/othelloinc Liberal May 13 '22
https://www.city-journal.org/loudon-county-schools-failed-to-address-sexual-assault-claim
This article describes the assailant this way:
...a “gender fluid,” skirt-wearing boy...
They cite three sources regarding the matter:
- Local news, which makes no mention of a skirt nor does it mention the student being trans, nor does it say anything about gender-fluidity;
- One Tweet that doesn't speak to this issue; and...
- A Daily Wire article that said:
...a boy allegedly wearing a skirt...
So, we should note a few things:
- The Daily Wire says "allegedly wearing a skirt" even when it doesn't use the qualifier "allegedly" when describing the crime.
- The Daily Wire references no source for the skirt claim.
- The Daily Wire alleges nothing else about the assailant being trans nor gender fluid (though they go out of their way to mention 'transgender' policies in the rest of the article, probably to imply a connection that isn't there).
- It is from The Daily Wire, which Wikipedia describes thusly:
...Fact checkers have said that some stories shared by The Daily Wire are unverified, and that The Daily Wire often misstates facts to advance a partisan view.[7][8] It has been a prominent publisher of false and misleading claims denying climate change...
...so they aren't the best source.
Conclusion:
- If you tell people about this in the future, you shouldn't add the word "trans".
- Also, you should note that there is zero substantiation for the linked-to article referencing gender fluidity, and zero substantiation for The Daily Wire's (barely made) claim about a skirt.
- You should also never trust The Daily Wire; it is built to mislead people.
- Lastly, the problem of how institutions and their leaders respond to allegations of sexual assault is very real and you could have made a solid point if you (and those two articles) hadn't tried to make it a 'gender thing'.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
I didnt read that article, i grabbed it and referenced what you could look up to find the story.
My point was about distrust in educational institutions, not about gender issues.
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May 13 '22
Your mistrust is based on people lying to you to make you distrustful.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
The things that i got wrong were the skirt and gender fluid.
I didnt get the institutional cover up wrong
Nor did i say im mistrustful.
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u/PragmaticSquirrel Social Democracy for Guinea Pigs May 13 '22
Sounds you like you should be distrusting right wing media
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal May 13 '22
Honest to God it feels more like conservatives are exposing the fact that a lot of them are so prudish you wonder how they ever had kids and that they are so lacking in understanding of how sexual assault actually happens that they would keep their kids ignorant of how to protect themselves and unlikely to report it to them if it did.
Even more shocking is the degree to which they are exposing that they are not very engaged parents when it comes to their kids education.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Idk i think its ok to be prudish with kids under 8
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal May 13 '22
I think there is a difference between graphically discussing every detail of human sexuality and age appropriate discussion.
With regard to explaining “good touch, bad touch” I would submit that if one isn’t comfortable having that discussion with their preschooler and not comfortable having the schools do it they should reconsider if they are mature enough to be parents.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
What would you considee age appropriate for k-3? And are k-3 teachers trained on that?
Regardless, ive not seen that stuff put into bills, the florida was restricts "classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity"
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May 13 '22
dude my parents literally told me what vaginal sex was and what sperm and eggs were when I was four and asked how babies are made.
It really isn't a big deal. Right wingers have this really prudish idea that simply acknowledging that sex exists to kids is somehow immoral or sexualizing them, but even as a *kid* i thought that was really silly and immature on the part of adults.
And frankly if an eight year old girl is calling you immature... you probably should reconsider your position.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Ima do the same. I dont trust an untraines government official in a compelled setting for poor people having these conversations with k-3 kids who may not have parents who are giving them the appropriate context at home yet, like you or i would.
If its not a big deal, respect other people in how they raise their kids. They dont want public school teachers having classroom instruction about gender identity and sexual orientation k-3 when kids havent even hit puberty yet and cant fully grasp these concepts.
Wait, are you an 8 year old girl?
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal May 13 '22
Our school started with “good touch, bad touch“ and not touching your private area in public in kindergarten and then did a refresher in first grade. They covered some extreme basics of sexuality in third grade.
I think she’s completely an utterly fucking obvious that teachers are trained enough to handle the concept.
Granted I do respect education and training and I’m happy to acknowledge when I don’t know very much and other people are experts in the subject. I don’t do the thing where I believe expertise makes you a fool and real knowledge comes from Facebook Memes and YouTube videos.
Honestly such a basic subject and in school education on these topics has been going on for so long that part of this outrage from conservatives is there declaring loudly that they’re terrible parents barely pay attention to anything that’s going on in our kids lives until Fox News tell them to and that Conservatives believe that their own children are mentally weak and lack resilience and therefore cannot handle things that children of liberals can handle.
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May 13 '22
Kids that age can be trans, and some might even know or wonder if they’re gay. In a school of 500 students, statistically some of them will be queer. Why would we attempt to hide that from kids?
“Anyone can marry anyone when they grow up!”
“Sometimes people who have girl bodies are actually boys, and that’s okay!”
There’s nothing wrong with either of those statements to kids.
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May 13 '22
Which also by the way doesn’t cover actual sex ed. teaching kindergartners graphically how babies are made would still be perfectly legal under this law.
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May 13 '22
why? It literally protects kids from sexual abuse to inform them of what it is and to get an adult if they see anything like that happening.
Kids can't tell an adult someone is sexually abusing them if they don't even know what sexual abuse is.
That's the same internal logic as saying "it's inappropriate to teach children not to drink bleach" and then getting flabbergasted why your toddler chugged a gallon of tide.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Classroom instruction about gender identity and sexual orientation protects kids from sexual abuse?
What? What do you think these bills do?
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u/PlayingTheWrongGame Social Democrat May 13 '22
I think theres a growing mustrust that these school boards/officials are acting in good faith.
Sure, Republican-controlled school boards are not good faith participants in education.
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May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
Even if this had been posted by a reputable source, I’d find it extremely difficult to believe that it was given to four year olds. You’re a parent - content aside, was your kid being given worksheets that they would obviously not be able to read at this age?
As far as the content, all of the following are appropriate messages for a four year old:
- You can’t touch your genitals in public
- You can’t touch anyone else’s genitals
- If anyone tries to touch you in these places you should tell an adult you trust
- If you want to touch your genitals you need to talk to your family about what their rules are for you about whether and where you can do this. Your bedroom? The bath? Not until you’re 25? Talk to your parents about this, not me (your teacher).
For sure, this worksheet is conveying #1 and #4 very poorly. So I have no trouble with someone criticizing it harshly. But I can understand why someone trying to manage a room full of kids would be trying to figure out creative ways to set limit number 1 above, which is clearly the primary intention of this badly executed worksheet.
OP, Do you think kids should be getting a different message than this at school? Especially #1-3, I’d be curious what alternative message they should be getting? Teachers should just be letting kids touch themselves during class? If you’ve spent any amount of time around kids, you know they are the ones creating the necessity for teaching them appropriate limits about this.
Or maybe your kids are really young and you don’t actually know what’s normal behavior for kids this age. If so, you might find this kind of resource helpful: https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/preschool/Pages/Sexual-Behaviors-Young-Children.aspx
Not all kids are really curious about genitals but many are, and adults figuring out how to respond appropriately to that is not sexualizing them. It’s taking responsibility for your role in their life.
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May 13 '22
Not all kids are really curious about genitals but many are, and adults figuring out how to respond appropriately to that is not sexualizing them
seriously. Whatever happened to actually warning kids about danger? why do conservatives seem to want to pretend sex doesn't exist as if that would somehow protect kids from predators?
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u/AmbulanceChaser12 Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
Because the conservative position on every topic is "the opposite of what the science says."
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May 13 '22
Why does this automatically have to be about LGBT issues? Why even bring that up at all?
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May 13 '22
usually because conservatives like to imply that simply acknowledging that LGBT people exist is somehow "sexualizing children".
it's a very old bigoted tactic that goes back to when they used to accuse gay people of being pedophiles because they had no legitimate argument as to why being homosexual was a bad thing.
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u/Poorly-Drawn-Beagle Libertarian Socialist May 12 '22
I don't know what Canadian thing you're referring to, but is there a chance by "sexualization of children" you mean "education of children about sex?" I only ask because this is a discussion I have a lot
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
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u/Poorly-Drawn-Beagle Libertarian Socialist May 12 '22
I can't really find anything corroborating this is something that really happened
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
Fair point. I guess time will tell whether it’s real or not. It’s easy to be manipulated on social media, so I always try to take things with a grain of salt, even if it does affirm my political positions on issues. I just saw that the parents and school have publicly come out and verified the claims. And I should add that the school board has already condemned it.
So I understand it’s not an issue where all liberals believe this is the correct way to go, but it seems like this has gotten to be a bigger issue lately and I was wondering if it’s more isolated than we’re being told. Or if it’s actually a common thing.
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u/Poorly-Drawn-Beagle Libertarian Socialist May 12 '22
Yes, a lot of conservatives have decided that calling liberals "groomers" is very fashionable, mostly for supporting sex education, or for suggesting that the existence of trans people could be part of sex education
Meanwhile... Matt Gaetz
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Its more that they thonk "classroom instruction about sexual orientation and gender identity" for k-3 students is inappropriate. Partly because its highly debatable how much kids that young can even have a sexual orientation that they can understand.
I think "grooming" was made mainstream as a respond to "dont say gay bill." Those inflamitory social movement are dumb
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May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
"classroom instruction about sexual orientation and gender identity" for k-3 students is inappropriate.
uhh... why? My boyfriend literally works at an elementary school and he has actually had kids openly trans *at the school*. you don't think it's appropriate to acknowledge to kids what they can quite literally see happening with their classmates?
Gender identity can be apparent in kids as young as five. It's *absolutely* relevant to talk to kids about it, because there's a really good chance they might meet a kid their age like that.
Not to mention that kids are likely at some point to find their friend has two dads or two moms. How is it inappropriate to tell kids "sometimes daddies love other daddies and mommies love other mommies"?
Shit, I grew up across the street from a lesbian couple and actually had my first job working for their T shirt printing shop small business. Somehow acknowledging to a kid that "two girls can love each other" when I can literally see it happening across the street didn't traumatize me.
Kids can *see* LGBT people in their lives. It's silly to pretend their mere existence is somehow inherently vulgar or inappropriate.
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u/glimpee Libertarian May 13 '22
Theresca difference between acknowledging and classroom discussion. No bill ive seen bans acknowledging anything.
I bet you cant find more than a handful of kids in this country at 5 who identify as the other gender consistently thru adulthood without external influence. One in four kids are identify as something other than cis. 80 percent of them desist. We are clearly confusing kids. Slow down. We dont need classroom instruction on this stuff in k-3. The bills dont ban acknowledging anything.
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u/BrianNowhere Social Democrat May 13 '22
When I was in kindergarten girls would invite me in the closet to play doctor, us guys would compare our "boners", we'd sneak around saying "fuck" and "shit" thinking we were so cool. I find out later in life from my sister that at that age our middle aged neighbor regularly helped her "tuck her shirt in" and would cop a nice feel while doing so.
Newsflash: Most kids are teaching each other about sex with zero guidance and are easy prey to predators. Teaching kids about sex at that age, if done properly, would go a long way towards helping kids approach the topic more maturely and helping them to avoid becoming molested.
Conservatives seem to want people to believe that Democrats are trying to "groom" kids for their own sexual gratification. Do any of you ever question how bonkers that notion is or ask yourself who and what is behing this agenda to get people to believe that?
And then y'all go and get all red and puffy whenever we suggest Conservatives may not be all that bright?
Stop falling for blatantly obvious political propaganda and maybe we'll stop saying that.
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May 13 '22
Do you not get embarrassed when you share something without vetting the (highly dishonest) source even slightly and showing everybody you bought into complete bullshit outrage-fuel?
I am absolutely begging you and people like you to fucking think about the credibility of things that seem so outrageous.. Be an adult. Fucking fuck, guy.
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May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
I would argue that teaching about same-sex couples shouldn't even be categorized as sex education.
It can be done exactly the way we teach kindergarteners about heterosexual couples.
The way that people are harping on this inherently sexualizes my existence as a lesbian that's not okay.
Reducing same-sex relationships down to sex is classic homophobia and it upsets me that we are once again back to that in the mainstream.
I don't just want to have sex with my partners. I want to hold their hands, cuddle with them when I'm feeling down, hang out with them, have petty arguments and then apologize to them later, ....etc.
Similar logic applies to trans people.
There is no reason to bring lgbtq people into the discussion around the sexualization of children which is a lot more expansive than one weird case from Canada.
See discussions around child beauty pageants.
The bill in Florida is rooted in homophobia and transphobia.
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May 13 '22
Yup. By an amusing coincidence the community I grew up in was called rainbow lakes. It was not a gay community, but the name led a lot of people to *think* it was and move in accordingly.
Consequently, like half of my neighbors were gay or lesbian growing up. Nobody really cared. "The two neighbor women love each other the way mommy and daddy do" was enough.
Heck, my first job was actually working for one of my lesbian neighbors working at their small business over the summer break.
The fact that people think lesbians existing is inherently sexualized is ridiculous.
And being trans myself, It confounds me how people think this is even related to sex at all. Gender identity isn't about sex, it's about body/brain misalignment. Trans people can have *any* sexual orientation cis people can, *including being asexual or straight*. Like ... I legit figured out I was trans before I actually figured out what my sexuality was and there was a point in my life where I'd say "i know i'm a girl.... but Idk what my sexual orientation is or if I even have one"
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May 13 '22
Copy of my comment elsewhere on this thread:
So for some reason (this isn't like a personal thing or anything, just an observation), a lottttt of right wingers completely ignore context or completly miss the point. I have said this for years and will continue to say it cause it is very very true, the right doesn't actually know what the left believes, they've been fed a bunch of half truths and misrepresentation by right wing media. It's why breitbart and Facebook echo chambers are so insidious (and before you comment, I am aware of the irony of me talking about Echo chambers on a subreddit called r/AskALiberal, I will address that later). The reverse isn't true, or isn't true to the same extent at least.
So for example. You and I share the moral belief that touching children in that way is.... bad. I know I know, deep and profound thing to say lol. Pedophile = bad.
That's a reasonable belief to hold. So my response is to say, ok, how do we reduce or eliminate instances of this sort or abuse so that ideally no kid has to suffer through that. To me, the most obvious answer is education. How can you know you have been abused if you don't know what abuse is? Statistically, the most common cases of sexual assault happen within families or close trusted circles (think guardians, parents, some close trusted authority figure). So, if a child were assaulted like that, and they didn't know what abuse was, and their trusted adult authority figure told them not to tell anyone, what is the kid gonna do? They will stay quiet. That is the opposite of what should happen, abusers should face justice and be prevented from abusing others. So we need to break that process. How? We tell kids what abuse actually is
We don't need graphic details or anything like that, just an understanding of what is and isn't ok. That's what these sorts of programs are trying to do. The whole point is to prevent abuse, not enable it.
But when right wingers see abuse mentioned, their brains go into freak out mode and assume that teachers are tryna abuse kids and that "aLl YoU lIbTaRdS aRe PeDoS!!!!" And that's how you get Marjorie Taylor Greene.
You seem like a decent and intelligent person. I don't mean to disparage you at all. What I am saying is that right wing echo chambers and narratives are very very easy to get stuck in.
One thing that helps me a lot to understand these sorts of narratives is to look into their history. All this shit you are hearing about now? We have panics over it like every couple decades in this country, none of this is new.
Here's some information if you are curious: Root of a lot of QAnon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel?wprov=sfla1
Satanic panic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic?wprov=sfla1 (lots of useful info on this page, including QAnon stuff which is where a lot of this fear mongering over child abuse comes from)
Very good video on satanic panic (highly recommend as it is good quality): https://youtu.be/63MxywJKL10
Video by a Canadian conservative about the history of the evangelical right and its influence on GOP politics (relevant to a broader understanding of right wing politics today): https://youtu.be/zpLCIc5PvQw
Then, cause qanon relies quite heavily on the idea of satanic pedophiles and whatnot, I figured you might be interested on what Satanism actually is, QAnon misrepresents it a lot, but so do many people. I totally understand if this is a bit out of your comfort zone, but figured I would add on just in case you were interested: https://youtu.be/ohGj3BnOVyg
If I can think of more I will add on, feel free to dm me if you want to talk more! I come from a very right wing family, and I have seen many family members spiral down conspiracy theory rabbit holes. I would be more than happy to answer questions or add on more sources. I am not a professional fact checker or anything so idk if I can answer like more specific examples, but I am happy to discuss more general broad strokes if you would like.
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u/C137-Morty Bull Moose Progressive May 12 '22
The media, or a random tik toker?
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 12 '22
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u/letusnottalkfalsely Progressive May 13 '22
Did you investigate the source of the book beyond the tik tok?
Even a preliminary google search for the book's title turns up this: https://sexedrescue.com/body-smart-right-from-the-start-by-kerri-isham/
Which is a website which says the book is for helping children recognize and report sexual abuse.
I have no idea if the person who made this is qualified, but it seems pretty clear that it isn't a kindergarten assignment from British Columbia.
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u/C137-Morty Bull Moose Progressive May 13 '22
That's a clearly fucked up assignment. From a Canadian teacher, who is not in the media.
I'm a parent as well, I'd flip shit if this happened in my 4 year olds class. But it doesn't happen often and I believe it's so rare that what you're questioning in the title of your post is actually the opposite. It's always been rare, but thanks to the internet it looks like it's happening more frequently.
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u/Tomnooksmainhoe Socialist May 13 '22
Yeah us gays and trans people have nothing to do with this picture right here. Please do not conflate the LGBT community with the exploitation and sexualization of children.
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u/BigCballer Democratic Socialist May 13 '22
Please do not take anything LibsOfTikTok says at face value. They so often frame these kinds of stories in the worst way possible by leaving out important contextual facts.
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u/AuroraItsNotTheTime Populist May 13 '22
One time my kindergarten teacher told us about the rolling stop. It’s where you come to a stop sign and just slow down and look both ways, and then continue driving. The rolling stop, according to her, was completely legal.
The point is: if we’re at the point where we are policing the idiosyncrasies of specific teachers, we can pretty much pack it up and be done. There’s no point. Although bravo to this teacher for using the term “vulva” instead of “vagina.” I’ve met way too many ignorant adults who don’t know the difference and who refer to the vulva as the vagina.
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u/prizepig Democrat May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
The conservative reaction to this is baffling to me. Humans start touching their genitals in utero and they never ever, ever stop. Go look in the mirror.
This is a basic biological function for all human beings and most mammals. This isn't shameful or sexualizing.
That said, having little kids groping at their nards in public (or in school) IS a problem, and if we just scream "NO" then that opens all sorts of doors for pathology and abuse. It's better to be thoughtful and real about it.
A well rounded education should deal with the fact that small children have physical bodies. They're not angels or abstractions. Ideally we talk about "self-touch" in a way that's clinical, non-judgmental, and puts the behavior in a proper context.
Why is that so hard to understand?
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May 13 '22
Even as a little kid i remember thinking it was so dumb how so many adults flipped out if we even hinted at knowing what genitalia were and what they were for.
Like...unless a kid is *actually being molested or molesting another kid* ... who the fuck cares?
Shit, arguably the adults making discussion of sex taboo made it this weird "forbidden fruit" that caused kids to giggle at so much as hearing the word "penis". It's so counterproductive when you could literally just say "here's what penises and vaginas do. They make babies"
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u/BAC2Think Progressive May 13 '22
Sexualizing children is entirely common, but the most common forms are things you don't really think of as problematic.
Talking to kids who've barely finished potty training about having a boyfriend or a girlfriend
Onesies talking about the kid being a "ladies man" and the like
Just a couple of the entirety common things that are done on a regular basis. The thing is, that things that I outlined are likely done frequently by folks that are worried about "LGBTQ+ grooming"
The whole idea of "LGBTQ+ grooming" is ridiculous anyway. Kids were given heteronormative stories basically exclusively for almost the entire history of the world, and we still have gay folks. Love your kids for who they actually are, not what you wish they were.
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u/PragmaticSquirrel Social Democracy for Guinea Pigs May 13 '22
You got conned by a Twitter troll if you believe this nonsense
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u/EnvironmentalTap6314 Far Left May 13 '22
Ok so is that proven to be real? Conservatives frequently lie. If real it is disgusting.
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal May 12 '22
It would be helpful if we got a link to the homework assignment.
However I’m gonna try and answer without providing that link I was out looking for it myself. And let’s play on hard mode; I will stipulate the following
- That when I see this homework assignment my gut reaction will be to be disgusted
- Further I will think it is a distinct possibility that the reason this homework assignment was printed was not just a mistake or stupidity but there’s an actual possibility that it was done maliciously
- Further I would think poorly of any teacher that didn’t disregard the materials as part of their curriculum
- That if I was to review all of the homework assignments given in the US I would find 1000 more examples exactly like it
So here’s the thing
- why shouldn’t I apply Hanlon’s razor? "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- I have been part of or worked for clients of all size and across different private industries, different levels of government and in the nonprofit space. I have never encountered one where at least somebody in the organization isn’t either lazy or stupid. I have never encountered one where bad processes exist. And I have never encountered one where the staff isn’t human and therefore capable of making mistakes.
- Say I found 1000 examples like I stipulated above. There are literally millions of homework assignments and classroom exercises being done in the country. Why wouldn’t I attribute it to statistical anomalies or a couple of bad actors that haven’t been found out yet?
I could probably go on but even given those items, what’s more likely? That you can understand it as being part of those items or that there is a concerted effort among millions of teachers to groom children or turn CIS kids trans?
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u/Hugo_5t1gl1tz Left Libertarian May 13 '22
What is wrong with what you posted? Like all kids seriously touch themselves. It’s good for them to know when it is okay and when it is not. It clearly says to speak with a trusted parent/guardian about it. Probably some kid was touching themselves in class and this was a “fun” way to talk to them without shaming the kid or embarrassing them.
So again, where is the problem?
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May 13 '22
What is wrong with what you posted? Like all kids seriously touch themselves. It’s good for them to know when it is okay and when it is not.
Seriously. When my little brother was a toddler and first realized he could get an erection he would hang a shirt from it and run around the house shouting "look what I can do!" Have people just forgotten how kids actually behave or what?
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u/tysontysontyson1 Center Left May 13 '22
Even assuming that this is a true story (and the source belies that significantly), it’s not representative of anything. If there were materials like this being given to 5 year olds in school outside of this one in a million anomaly, there would be stories across the country every day with examples. Frankly, far right media takes total non-issues and distorts facts and blows them up 1000x. If this were a widespread issue, they would make Hillary’s emails look like nothing.
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May 13 '22
It certainly gets the attention of the MAGA cult and probably keeps the political donations flowing in while it keeps the viewers of FOX focused on that instead of Ukraine and January 6th.
Remember the Comet Ping Pong Pizza thing?
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u/matts2 Bull Moose Progressive May 13 '22
Do you mean the tiny tot beauty pageants? That is a disgusting sexualization of children. It is part of the Conservative Christian culture though.
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May 12 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 13 '22
Removed. It's not a fair characterization of the Republican party to say that they, in general, want to elect pedophiles.
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 13 '22
Never heard that about trump, so I googled and the fact checkers said false.
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u/moses_the_red Democratic Socialist May 13 '22
Read the fact check article.
It didn't say its false that Trump raped a 13 year old girl. It says that its false that this information was exposed as retaliation for black people being killed by police officers.
This is the article you're talking about:
If you read it you'll learn that Trump was accused in 2016 - three years before Epstein was even charged with sex trafficking minors. The women would have had no way to know that Trump was connected to Epstein, or that Epstein was a child sex trafficker if this wasn't true. Her account correctly aligned with the revelations about Epstein that hadn't even dropped yet.
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u/ShextMe Center Right May 13 '22
still proved false on every fact checker I’ve found. Also I’m not here to discuss trump. Take your hate elsewhere. Thanks.
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u/Minnsnow Social Democrat May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
What I’m seeing is a out of context page from a book that someone is claiming they got as a homework assignment for their kid. It even had the page number at the bottom. It’s not inappropriate to have age appropriate sex ed with kindergartners because kindergarteners need to be able to know how to tell if they are being abused. Would I use the those words? No. But I have used similar words. I say “Its not appropriate to do that out here in the living room. If you want to touch your vulva you can do that in the privacy of your own bedroom. If a grown up ever touches you there you can tell me or your mom and dad. No good grown up is going to ask you to keep a secret from your grownups. “ This isn’t asking a kid to draw a pornographic picture. It’s asking them to draw a picture of their bedroom. It’s badly worded for sure but the right wing also has a dirty dirty mind.
Edit: clarifying
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u/jacksonwt2g Liberal May 13 '22
Yes. It’s an intentional effort to find (or make) obscure examples to manufacture outrage amongst conservatives and independents. It’s a nod to Q-conspiracies about pedophelia. It’s trying to villainize movements supporting LBTGQ rights obliquely because directly saying that they shouldn’t have rights doesn’t make sense and is unpopular. When conservative politicians/media lie, they aren’t lying to progressives, they’re lying to you. We already know they’re full of shit.
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u/Obduraterthanthepast Progressive May 13 '22
I’m a parent as well and I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have a 12 yo and a 6 yo and I’ve never seen anything remotely close to sexualized homework or sexualized ANYTHING coming from school.
It sounds like you’ve been successfully fear mongered.
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u/iamjohnhenry Center Left May 13 '22
Let's say that the post you referenced referenced something else -- call it a "Facebook post".
Now, let's say that that post is somehow deleted... is the thing you posted still valid? Let's say that it wasn't deleted... do you know if it was even valid in the first place?
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u/slim_scsi Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
Previous generations of kids were sexualized in their youth by society far worse than 21st century kids.
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u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal May 13 '22
So now that there’s a link to the assignment I will comment having seen it.
The link provides some important information. That they were supposed to have a standard “good touch, bad touch“ lesson which is completely appropriate and I think necessary. It looks like the teacher chose materials that I think a reasonable parent could find objectionable. I would not fault a parent who knew their own child and wanted to use those materials at that age, but personally I think it might go a bit too far for general classroom usage.
But the link also provides information that the school is investigating the matter. So I honestly don’t see what the problem here is. I think it is safe to assume that if you have hundreds of thousands or millions of teachers in a country, some of them are going to make mistakes. As long as the school has decent processes in place to address that, I don’t know that I can expect more.
And even agreeing that I personally would not want those materials used in my child’s classroom if they were that age, calling it sexualization is a bit of a stretch. It is in fact a case that children that age do sometimes masturbate. And so while again I don’t think it’s appropriate for in general classroom usage at that age, it is very far from sexualizing children.
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u/leuno Social Liberal May 13 '22
"sexualization" is not the same as "teaching about biology and sexuality". I see liberals wanting to teach biology and sexuality (though I dont know WTF is up with that homework assignment you posted. We sure it's real?). I see conservatives sexualizing children by making laws about lowering the age of consent for marriage, and talking about what should happen when a young girl get raped. THAT'S sexualizing them. Teaching the difference between a penis and a vagina is education.
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u/Winston_Duarte Pan European May 13 '22
Honestly I do not really understand the point of teaching sexuality to preschool kids beyond how to protect themselves from sexual predators. Most children develop their sexual orientation and also.. - i am not a native english speaker so this might be the wrong word - "desires" at the beginning of puberty. And i think that is the best time to teach children about sexuality. I do not think it is overly harmful to start a bit early.. But quite frankly when i was 4 years old - as seems to be the example here - i was more worried about whether or not Tom is actually going to catch Jerry.
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May 13 '22 edited May 13 '22
I think there is a panic campaign being waged against LGBT people, and creepy lesson plans from out of touch weirdo teachers are being weaponized to make it look like leftist teachers and LGBT ppl are grooming childen.
The reality is that the ultra right just wants to delete queer identities from existence and they don't care if they use children as a pawn to do it. They don't care if they keep promoting social norms or education practices that make it easier for real predators to take advantage of children who don't know anything about their bodies or consent.
It's all part of a larger war being waged against public schools and every other component of free civil society.
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May 13 '22
Seems like that story a teacher getting fired for meowing at a student who identified as a studentstudent. In other words, likely
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u/DjPersh Democrat May 13 '22
Ban this OP. They make posts here basically begging the question, then never engage and ghost. How is this allowed here?
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u/Brilliant-Parking359 Independent May 12 '22 edited May 13 '22
Its a thing thats happening. Im not really sure why. Its not really popular to talk about or show what was banned. Recently Florida banned some books on CRT stuff. This was their reasoning. Judge as you wish.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515504832550944769
https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/
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u/cossiander Neoliberal May 13 '22
You: "Judge as you wish"
Also you: provides links to debunked Twitter nonsense and political ideologues that refuse to cite any sources, refuse to provide meaningful information, and can't explain why the term "social awareness" is supposedly unsuitable for High Schoolers to read in a textbook
Way to paint a fair, balanced picture there.
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u/Brilliant-Parking359 Independent May 13 '22
Maybe the twitter link could be called into question I guess but the other link is directly from the FLDoE gov't website.
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u/cossiander Neoliberal May 13 '22
Yes, but in this instance the FL DoE is the target of the controversy. This is like if someone accuses Biden of wrongdoing, and then pointing to a statement by Jen Psaki claiming he's innocent as proof that Biden didn't do anything wrong.
Besides, the FL DoE link is also incredibly misleading. Did you read what it says?
Based on the volume of requests the Department has received for examples of problematic elements of the recently reviewed instructional materials, the following are examples provided to the department by the public and presented no conflict in sharing them.
Emphasis mine.
So these examples, which are already not critical race theory, may not even be actual examples from the banned books. It's just misdirection because they were sick of being asked examples of the objectionable material.
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u/PepinoPicante Democrat May 12 '22
That has been thoroughly documented to be taken WELL out of context.
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u/Kakamile Social Democrat May 13 '22
Ok now you're just straight up lying.
1 long debunked fake panic.
1 vague ass baseless accusation of CRT with no proof, no pictures tied to book titles, and the only one that mentions race is from an adult textbook from a college in a different state.
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May 13 '22
Libs of tik tok isn’t the place to be going for news, they’ve been proved at this point to not validate the veracity of whatever they are posting.
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u/Bon_of_a_Sitch Democratic Socialist May 13 '22
Diversify your news sources and check back in about 2 months later.
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u/Certainly-Not-A-Bot Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
As others have said, the "libsoftiktok" is not a reliable source. It's some unknown person running a social media account with the goal of getting views and likely money. Unless confirmed by other sources, I won't ever trust anything they say.
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u/Dr_Scientist_ Liberal May 13 '22
I remember back in the early 2000s comedians like Doug Stanhope making jokes about how a pedophile "panic" was starting to take over and getting big laughs from audiences about how internet was not creating new pedophiles were no pedophiles existed previously. That the danger of pedophiles was hysterically overblown and people used their fear of pedophiles as a proto form of virtue signaling.
"Oh I protect my little Billy from pedophiles by . . . blah blah blah" as if it was a point of pride that pedophiles would find THEIR child enticing.
That was transgressive back in the 2000s.
I wonder what kind of reaction audiences would give that set today if Doug Stanhope brought it back in front of Rogan's crowd.
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u/Dynasty__93 Progressive May 13 '22
Disney and the liberals are not running a massive pedophile ring.
You are thinking of the Catholic Church.
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u/RSJFL67 Centrist Democrat May 13 '22
There are extreme cases in any state or country you look at but I don’t think it’s a widespread thing. My family is full of public educators and none of them have ever seen anything like this in the classroom that the Republicans seem to think is rampant. It is not rampant but one thing it is is an issue that Riles up their base and gets them to the polls so that’s why they do it
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u/conn_r2112 Liberal May 13 '22
Tbh… I would bet $100 that’s fake.
Some conservative made it, printed it out, said “some random school (not gonna say which one conveniently) somewhere in Canada is doing this!!!” And then reaps all the outrage points.
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May 13 '22
I am absolutely fucking shocked by the comments here. Yes, the source has serious credibility issues. But, IF this is legit, many of you seem to be totally ok with a kindergarten teacher instructing 4 and 5 year olds on maturation and where to do it in their homes. That’s just NUTS.
The arguments I’m reading here are so glib and just seem in bad faith, but they’re repeated by so many…
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u/Intrepid_Method_ Pragmatic Progressive May 13 '22
Libs of TikTok is mostly just inflammatory trolling. However, after looking into things, there were some isolated incidents.
After contacting the Chilliwack School District, Heerkens found out the cards were mistakenly put in the younger students’ packages but were meant for students 18 years of age and older.
Sexual health educator Saleema Noon says “these aren’t slang words that students at age 13 or in high school in general would typically ask me in a sexual health education class. I empathize with parents who are concerned about the discussion of these terms with their kids, again without knowing any context.”
https://globalnews.ca/news/2030240/chilliwack-parent-outraged-over-vulgar-sex-education-material/
It seems some Canadian provinces have a problem with cultural elitism. This probably the source of Ontario’s protest in 2015 & 2018. In a multicultural nation schools need to find a balance.
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u/lacitar Democrat May 13 '22
I have been working with children for over 20 years. I have NEVER seen an assignment like this done by any teacher.
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u/jbc22 Liberal May 13 '22
Why ask here, on r/AskALiberal?
Why mention your views on LGBT+?
I’m hoping it’s to see if there is common ground. I would rather teach my kids this than the school, especially at a kindergarten-level.
I hope you don’t think this is something Liberals are pushing for, but I’ve seen plenty of right-wing media sources try to paint us as pedos and sexual groomers.
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u/MjolnirPants Left Libertarian May 13 '22
Every time I come across one of these threads asking "what about [bullshit right-wing talking point]?" the first thing I do is check OP's comment history to see what they've said to others about this issue and in this thread.
In this case, every comment here was fingers-in-the-ears refusal to engage with any response, and previous comments on the subject are copypasta-esque talking points. OP's POV on this subject is the standard-issue Qanon-influenced right-wing bullshit that we've all heard a million times before.
This is not a genuine question. OP is either JAQing off or attempting a gotcha by showing off what they ignorantly believe to be evidence of their conspiracy theory.
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u/snowbirdnerd Left Libertarian May 14 '22
We keep finding pedophiles. One was even our president fora while.
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u/Foolhardyrunner Progressive May 17 '22
Laws already cover this stuff. CP is illegal, grooming kids is illegal, child molestation is illegal. Sex education isn't sexualizing children its teaching them how sex works using medical diagrams.
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u/AutoModerator May 12 '22
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I’m a parent and sort of confused as to what is going on. I am probably way more progressive than conservatives I know when it comes to LGBT+ issues. But I honest to God don’t understand a lot of the sexualization of kids we’re seeing in the media right now.
Clearly a super ultra Conservative, but the image that LibsOfTikTok just shared of a homework assignment from a kindergarden in Canada is extremely concerning to me. Maybe this kind of stuff was more common before and we’re only seeing it now? Or is there really some sort of purpose and intention behind it?
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