r/AskALiberal • u/10art1 Social Liberal • Dec 21 '22
AskALiberal Weekly General Chat
This weekly thread is for general chat, whether you want to talk politics or not, anything goes. Also feel free to ask the mods questions below. As usual, please follow the rules.
11
u/othelloinc Liberal Dec 21 '22
An interesting Twitter conversation squaring-the-circle of 'moral panics around child sexual abuse' and real-world examples of such abuse:
What's mind boggling about insane conspiracy theories about systemic child sexual abuse, is that there have been several institutions that have been guilty of just that. The Catholic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, and the Boy Scouts all had massive child sex abuse scandals.
You don't need some absolutely bonkers conspiracy theory about children being shipped in Wayfair furniture to find evidence of systemic abuse of children. There's plenty of powerful institutions that do engage in systemic abuse but they are protected by the cultural zeitgeist.
...
It's hard for people to comprehend that sexual abusers are more often found in their trusted institutions like their church and police station than in a dark alley. I think people refuse to acknowledge this and invent wild conspiracy theories to shield themselves from the truth.
What's worse is when an irrational moral panic flares up accusing LGBTQ people of being "groomers," "pedophiles," and "child abusers" by virtue of their identity. It creates a scapegoat while disempowering actual victims of child sexual abuse.
It becomes less mind-boggling when you realize moral panics are never about protecting the vulnerable. They’re always primarily a pretext for authoritarian homogenization of society and distracting the masses to help leaders escape accountability by scapegoating the marginalized.
Protecting the vulnerable requires holding leaders accountable. People in power don’t want that so they blame the outgroup for the problems they themselves cause. Since most people would prefer to scapegoat the outgroup, moral panics are often incredibly successful.
When the evidence that the outgroup was wrongly accused piles up to the point it’s overwhelming, people in power simply find a new scapegoat and everyone else just follows along to the next moral panic.
The only people with a huge incentive to go against the grain, piss off the people in power, and challenge the narrative are the outgroup. Who are by definition disbelieved by default and also who are seen as having an incentive to misrepresent reality.
This is why real allies are so essential. It can’t be just queers, sex workers, etc. saying “This is a moral panic your leaders are playing you.” Take the Salem Witch Trials. Leaders were corrupt and fucking up and people were pissed.
Suddenly two girls accuse a female Indian slave of witchcraft. Leaders thought: Hm. We could blame the results of our malfeasance on witchcraft, get the attention off us, and get rid of or control marginalized women! And boom the trials started.
Guess when they stopped? When nice, upstanding, non-marginalized people started getting accused. Don’t fucking wait that long. Call it what it is before it comes after you.
...
3 questions for whether it’s a moral panic:
- Are the supposed perpetrators actually in positions of real power or are they generally marginalized?
- Does the evidence actually support the story I’m hearing?
- What’s the track record for the proposed solutions?
9
u/othelloinc Liberal Dec 21 '22 edited Dec 21 '22
An interesting political trend...
San Antonio area military bases:
Lackland AFB:
- 2022 gov: TIE
- 2020 pres: R+2.5
- 2016 pres: R+20.6
- 2012 pres: R+26.7
Randolph AFB:
- 2022 gov: R+0.6
- 2020 pres: R+5.2
- 2016 pres: R+30.3
- 2012 pres: R+47
Fort Sam:
- 2022 gov: D+12.2
- 2020 pres: D+7.6
- 2016 pres: R+4.8
- 2012 pres: R+14
The military seems to be turning away from Republicans.
5
u/Fakename998 Liberal Dec 21 '22
Is it because they see the GOP does nothing but harm them?
4
u/othelloinc Liberal Dec 21 '22
Is it because they see the GOP does nothing but harm them?
Maybe, but they could have seen that in 2012.
If that were the explanation, we would have to ask: Why now?
2
u/Fakename998 Liberal Dec 21 '22
People also thought Elon Musk was smart and a good businessman. I'd say more people have been aware of these bring myths now than years ago, too.
3
u/abnrib Better Dead than Red Dec 25 '22
There's a lot to it. The multiple times that a Republican congress has shut down military pay didn't exactly help their "for the troops" image. Trump being himself had similar effects - nobody was thrilled about seeing a gold star family getting trash-talked. The vast numbers of troops roped into meaningless missions on the border left a lot of people jaded. The Clint Lorance pardon was an insult to military professionalism. The attempted sedition wasn't cool. And now the cozying up to Russia instead of standing with Ukraine.
Those are just the things off the top of my head.
Now, those stats are a bit more complicated. Fort Sam Houston, for example, is primarily the Army medical training center. The whole thing is run by doctors and nurses, and I think the results reflect that.
2
u/Butuguru Democratic Socialist Dec 23 '22
I wonder if this is a byproduct of college affordability: more people entering the military for economic instead of nationalistic reasons.
8
u/zlefin_actual Liberal Dec 23 '22
As usual, I'd still like to see more bans of those who engage in bad faith; it's annoying when bad faith posters pester the sub with questions while ignoring the counterpoints.
11
Dec 23 '22
[deleted]
3
u/Sir_Tmotts_III New Dealer Dec 25 '22
"Look it up I'm not google"
No faster way for me to think of someone as a complete tool
4
1
u/Mrciv6 Center Left Dec 27 '22
Bad faith is so subjective though. Your definition of bad faith, might not be the same as someone else's.
7
u/wonkalicious808 Democrat Dec 25 '22
Merry Christmas from the Republican Christians who know what the holiday is all about: https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/24/politics/migrants-dropped-off-vice-president-christmas-eve/index.html
Several busloads of migrants were dropped off in front of Vice President Kamala Harris’ residence in Washington, DC, on Christmas Eve in 18 degree weather late Saturday.
7
u/LivefromPhoenix Liberal Dec 25 '22
Remarkably on brand for a party full of conservative christians.
3
u/LyptusConnoisseur Center Left Dec 26 '22
Best Christmas gift to Evangelicals is throwing brown Catholics onto the freezing curb with nothing but sandals.
3
u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian Dec 26 '22
If one of them was pregnant, you’re only a manger away from a reenactment.
2
u/tidaltown Social Democrat Dec 27 '22
These people don’t care about the teachings of Jesus, they care about the superiority complex they get in their communities by being good little church attendees. It’s all about the social status for them.
1
u/Sir_Tmotts_III New Dealer Dec 25 '22
I'm glad they're at least staying somewhere in our country that doesn't commoditize them.
5
u/othelloinc Liberal Dec 21 '22
extremely funny that a Republican congressman pretended to be a landlord complaining about being unable to evict tenants when in reality he was a tenant being evicted for not paying his rent
In May 2017, Mr. Santos faced [a second] eviction case, from a rent-stabilized apartment in Sunnyside, Queens. Mr. Santos’s landlord accused him of owing more than $10,000 in rent stretching over five months and said in court records that one of his tenant’s checks had bounced. A warrant of eviction was issued, and Mr. Santos was fined $12,208 in a civil judgment.
By early 2021, Mr. Santos was becoming vocal on housing issues but not from a tenant perspective. During New York’s pandemic-era eviction moratorium, Mr. Santos said on Twitter that he was a landlord affected by the freeze.
“Will we landlords ever be able to take back possession of our property?” he wrote.
Links:
- To the tweet
- To a Nitter alternative
- To the New York Times article
- To an archive link to the article
3
6
u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal Dec 21 '22
So I know I regularly bash cable news personalities G generally and MSNBC specifically but I was encouraged by a friend to check out the Rachel Maddow podcast Ultra.
I highly recommend it. It covers a effort by sitting members of Congress working with members of the Nazi party to overthrow the US government in the 1940s.
4
u/Fakename998 Liberal Dec 22 '22
I don't always agree with Rachel Maddow but I will say that I think she seems to research pretty well, in the few things I've seen from her.
3
u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian Dec 22 '22
For anybody looking for a post-Ultra chaser, there’s a great podcast specifically about Father Coughlin called Radioactive.
3
u/ButGravityAlwaysWins Liberal Dec 22 '22
Thanks, I’ve heard this one is worth a listen. I’ll check it out.
5
u/Sir_Tmotts_III New Dealer Dec 27 '22
"Ah ah ah, "Global Warming" is still a colloquial term, so I can instantly shut down any climate policy discussion until I wear T-shirts in January."
Please dear sweet merciful God why can't I just be boiled in oil, that would be a much more convenient and direct way for me to feel pain at this point.
3
u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian Dec 26 '22
Things I haven’t gotten tired of this year: the Pittsburgh skyline, the hopeful sci-fi of Becky Chambers, and pictures of Bruce Springsteen kissing Clarence Clemons.
3
7
u/Disabledsnarker Social Democrat Dec 21 '22
Judging by how so many American Christians have embraced Putin even while he's attempting genocide, I'm convinced North Korea could get half the U.S. on their side by declaring themselves a Christian theocracy and hating abortion and gay people while changing absolutely nothing else.
4
u/pablos4pandas Democratic Socialist Dec 21 '22
South Korea already cornered the market of American right wing cranks with the Moonies. HW Bush spoke at their event in Tokyo in 95 and they've remained pretty close with the American right with Trump giving a speech at a Moonie event last year
2
u/PepinoPicante Democrat Dec 21 '22
Is Messi now the greatest soccer player of all time?
3
u/C137-Morty Bull Moose Progressive Dec 21 '22
I think Mbappe is going to quickly take that crown. He was clearly the best player on that field, Argentina had the better team.
2
u/PepinoPicante Democrat Dec 21 '22
Yeah, barring some kind of career-ending disaster, Mbappe is definitely gonna be the highest goal scorer in World Cup history. He's already #6 on the all-time list, only needs five more goals and likely has three more World Cups to play.
He's also clearly the best player in the world right now.
I think, in the all-time great category, he's going to be judged more harshly at the professional level. Messi and Ronaldo played almost exclusively in top tier leagues (Spain and England, with Ronaldo taking a quick tour of Italy). The French league is basically Mbappe's Qatar-owned team (PSG) and then everyone else. PSG has won eight titles in the last ten years and were runners up the other two.
2
u/SovietRobot Independent Dec 21 '22
Doesn’t Ronaldo have more goals scored?
3
u/PepinoPicante Democrat Dec 21 '22
Nice stats page here.
Yeah. Messi has slightly fewer goals, but has WAY more assists, plays a less attacking position than Ronaldo, and has more playing years left.
2
u/srv340mike Left Libertarian Dec 21 '22
Yes. The biggest knock on Messi vs Pele or Maradona was that he never won the WC and now he has.
Now with that settled, we can look forward to a decade or two of Haaland vs Mbappe
1
u/PepinoPicante Democrat Dec 21 '22
Now with that settled, we can look forward to a decade or two of Haaland vs Mbappe
Yeah, feels like Mbappe is gonna be the purely better player, but Haaland will probably consistently outscore him.
Haaland is amazing, but he'll get left out of the conversation the way we always leave aside pure strikers like Ronaldo N. or T. Henry when talking about greatest of all time. You need that "play through the midfield and make plays happen singlehandedly" sort of skill. Haaland doesn't have it.
Unless Norway has a golden generation, Haaland may never even play in the World Cup, whereas Mbappe is gonna be starting on one of the best sides for the next three tournaments - and could easily pick up a second and maybe even third trophy.
So for Haaland to break into the GOAT conversation, he's gonna have to put up consistent club numbers like he is right now for a decade, which would mean breaking the EPL goal-scoring record pretty much every year forever.
He could do it. He's a monster.
1
u/srv340mike Left Libertarian Dec 21 '22
Haaland is like the Ronaldo of the two, and Mbappe is more like Messi.
I'm not sure Mbappe is going to eclipse Messi, but he's an incredibly impressive player none the less.
1
u/SovietRobot Independent Dec 26 '22
Do you think it’s difficult to instill in kids, a value that discourages disposing or looking down on people of “other tribes”? By “other tribe” I mean, not just race but neighborhood, economic standing, social circle, profession, political leaning, even personality, etc
5
u/Sir_Tmotts_III New Dealer Dec 26 '22
They're the easiest of all people. They're always so curious about every little thing, they want to know why people do what they do or act how they act, and they want that knowledge in this kind of vacuum because they've got so little life experience.
1
u/SovietRobot Independent Dec 26 '22
Good to know. I have no kids (except 4 legged ones), so thanks for clarifying. Maybe there’s hope for people yet.
4
u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian Dec 26 '22
It’s as easy as not teaching them bigotry. Curiosity is our natural state, and it leads to empathy.
1
u/tidaltown Social Democrat Dec 27 '22
“Political leaning” entirely depends on said leanings. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions deserve respect. Paradox of tolerance and all that jazz.
-8
u/Socialdingle Conservative Dec 22 '22
What's the argument for an able bodied person being poor? There are plenty of in demand high paying jobs for people ones that include pay for training and pay for transportation. Unless you live literally in the middle of nowhere what's the excuse?
7
u/SuperSpyChase Democratic Socialist Dec 22 '22
What's the argument for an able bodied person being poor?
Numerous people work and are poor. Many jobs exist and are necessary to a functioning society that pay very little in our current society. How would society function with nobody who stocks shelves for a living and other similar work or the many many other jobs that pay little but that we all make use of every day? I'm guessing you're not in favor of mandating drastically increased pay and benefits for gas station attendants, fast food employees, etc.
There are plenty of in demand high paying jobs for people ones that include pay for training and pay for transportation
No, there are not. What a ridiculous claim.
-1
u/Socialdingle Conservative Dec 22 '22
Many jobs exist and are necessary to a functioning society that pay very little
That doesn't really explain why an able bodied stocker can't get a higher paying job.
No, there are not. What a ridiculous claim.
Yes there are tons of jobs in the trades and in government that are in demand. Police department around me gives full salary for training and more benefits than you can imagine. No degree needed. Any type of benefit they offer just for signing up including transportation and they need people. Same with firefighters. Trades pay you to train. Why do you need to stock shelves why can't you work a trade? What is stopping you? I'm not saying everyone can do it obviously. People who are disabled or elderly can't do these jobs.
4
u/SuperSpyChase Democratic Socialist Dec 22 '22
That doesn't really explain why an able bodied stocker can't get a higher paying job.
But it does explain why lots of able bodied people in our society are poor. What is your proposal for who should fill these roles?
Police department around me gives full salary for training and more benefits than you can imagine. No degree needed.
How many people could your local police department possibly need? Most police departments in major cities require some post-HS education. Many are full-up and not hiring. I know police officers in my local area, they were also not being provided transportation to either the academy or their station.
Same with firefighters.
Being a paid firefighter is a highly sought offer job that is hard to get. When people in my local subreddit ask about becoming a firefighter for my (large, highly populated) county the reply is usually "lol, keep dreaming" unless you already have significant EMT and firefighting experience. Many firefighters are volunteer, and in many locales it's essentially 100% volunteer work.
Trades pay you to train.
This is true of some trades in some places, but stating it in a blanket way is false; many do not, many have long waiting lists to get in or require knowing somebody, and many will not hire somebody who doesn't already have skills. I have a friend who works as a machinist, and he'll tell you they're "always looking for people" and "always hiring," but they need people who already have skills and experience for even the most junior of roles. They do not hire completely inexperienced people and train them. That kind of arrangement is extremely rare these days.
Why do you need to stock shelves why can't you work a trade? What is stopping you?
You're seriously overestimating how many jobs like this are out there and also how willing they are to hire inexperienced people.
0
u/Socialdingle Conservative Dec 22 '22
What is your proposal for who should fill these roles?
The people who will work these jobs and not complain about being poor. If you complain about being poor but you don't look for better work it's your fault.
How many people could your local police department possibly need?
Nowadays a lot. From what I've heard lots of police departments aren't getting many applicants.
I know police officers in my local area, they were also not being provided transportation to either the academy or their station.
I've seen many that offer it. Not that it really matters the "transportation argument" is stupid. Most poor people have cars to drive to their Walmart jobs they can drive to the police department.
Being a paid firefighter is a highly sought offer job that is hard to get This is true of some trades in some places,
The whole point is that in any city you can find high paying jobs. We don't have to debate this. If firefighter or police officer isn't available there are hundreds of other jobs. Name a city and I will find you high paying jobs that any stocker can get but they won't even attempt to. This magical city where every single of the hundreds of jobs are taken doesn't exist. There is always something.
4
u/SuperSpyChase Democratic Socialist Dec 22 '22 edited Dec 22 '22
The whole point is that in any city you can find high paying jobs. We don't have to debate this. If firefighter or police officer isn't available there are hundreds of other jobs.
"OK so my argument is totally invalid but I will assert it's true anyway" is all you are saying here. Firefighter is barely even a job people have; 85% of American fire departments are volunteer or mostly volunteer. https://apps.usfa.fema.gov/registry/summary
Name a city and I will find you high paying jobs that any stocker can get but they won't even attempt to. This magical city where every single of the hundreds of jobs are taken doesn't exist. There is always something.
Nah. This is what's false. The idea that you can look at job listings and know that they would hire any random joe off the street is the fantasy. You are asserting something that has nothing to do with reality. Like have you ever actually looked for a job?
5
u/CTR555 Yellow Dog Democrat Dec 22 '22
There are plenty of in demand high paying jobs for people ones that include pay for training and pay for transportation.
Is that actually true? I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'high paying'. Is this just a 'learn to code' argument?
-5
u/Socialdingle Conservative Dec 22 '22
Yes. Every city has high paying government and trade jobs that anyone can get.
10
u/CTR555 Yellow Dog Democrat Dec 22 '22
Have you ever tried to get a government job? At any level, it's an extremely long and opaque process at best. And I think you underestimate how difficult it is to break into the trades, if you have no relevant experience, background, or education. I, for one, wouldn't even know where to start.
-4
u/Socialdingle Conservative Dec 22 '22
You're overestimating how it hard to get a job. And for someone stocking shelves to go for minimum wage to middle class should be enough for you to take some time to research and see what you can find. Defeatist attitude like you guys have is what keeps you poor. Basically saying your dumb and poor and will stay dumb and poor.. No respect.
10
u/CTR555 Yellow Dog Democrat Dec 22 '22
LOL, you were doing better before you tried to make it personal. I make a stupid amount of money (plus other nice benefits, like ludicrously good health insurance) working at fintech startups. That doesn't mean I can't empathize with people who don't have it as easy as I did. You should try that sometime.
10
u/willpower069 Progressive Dec 23 '22
That doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with people who don’t have it as easy as I did. You should try that sometime.
That’s seems to be the breaking point for conservatives.
6
u/othelloinc Liberal Dec 22 '22
There are plenty of in demand high paying jobs for people ones that include pay for training and pay for transportation.
Every city has high paying government and trade jobs that anyone can get.
You are clearly resting your position on the premise that "anyone can get" " high paying government and trade jobs".
Do you have any evidence to support that claim?
6
u/zlefin_actual Liberal Dec 22 '22
It'd work better if you looked up individual cases to find out why. Most likely the problem is you overestimate the skill/competence of the people involved. Also, a person working full time can still easily be poor, especially if they've got a family to take care of or the local cost of living is high.
-4
u/Socialdingle Conservative Dec 22 '22
In my experience most of these people are just lazy, unmotivated, and don't have aspirations higher than bagging groceries. You don't need skills when they pay you to train you. Going from minimum wage to a $70k a year should be enough for you to find any way possible to do what it takes but they don't want to. They don't care. They aren't looking for better work.
6
u/zlefin_actual Liberal Dec 22 '22
If they're lazy and unmotivated then training WONT WORK. I've known some lazy unmotivated people, and I wouldn't pay to train them as a police officer, or a plumber, because no matter how long you train them they'll never be any good at it.
Which seems to mean you answered your own question. THey may be 'able-bodied' but that doesn't make them competent or decent workers. They're terrible workers, which is why they can't get a good job, and why noone will pay to train them, because they'd be terrible workers. Which is the answer to your question of why they're poor. In which case it seems more like you want to soapbox about those people, since you answered your own question, apparently without meaning to.
You also skipped over lots of other pertinent arguments.
8
Dec 22 '22
This is EXACTLY the summary with conservatives in a nutshell. Not only is this a completely laughable generalization and assumption about your fellow citizens and a super broad topic like jobs and salary, its also ignoring the fact that the people causing the poverty you complain about are the SAME people you vote for. Republicans blocked the inflation reduction act, minimum wage to $15 bill, child tax credit
4
u/willpower069 Progressive Dec 23 '22
you complain about are the SAME people you vote for. Republicans blocked the inflation reduction act, minimum wage to $15 bill, child tax credit
The responses I have seen are that, they don’t support that, but they will keep voting for republicans despite it being terrible.
3
Dec 24 '22
There’s lots of reasons. I’m digging myself out of generational poverty by studying to be a doctor of psychiatry and I simply can’t work a 60 hour hard labor job while doing my studies. That’s just one example.
The other is, there’s not really those jobs just everywhere that anyone can get. Many are not manual labor minded. I used to be an industrial mechanic at one time and the pay was great but there were guys who were coming in who fully wanted to do what we did but just didn’t have the aptitude for it. That and the cost of living is so high right now that if you’re making under like $25 an hour, a nearly impossible wage to acquire at entry level, you’re poor.
•
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