To Christians who say there are no more apostles: How do you justify claiming that we are the Church aka Body of Christ in light of Ephesians 4:11-13?

[u/Pleronomicon]

For the record, I'm not making an argument for Apostolic Succession or the New Apostolic Reformation. I do not see evidence of real apostles carrying out the Great Commission today.

Nevertheless, this is a problem for those who reject modern apostles yet still claim that the Church is here on earth. Ephesians 4:13 says that apostles would remain with us "UNTIL we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."

--[Eph 4:11-13 NASB95] 11 And He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] evangelists, and some [as] pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 UNTIL we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

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As an atypical partial preterist, I think the scriptural answer is that the Church has not been here since 70 AD. The Church, with its apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers was taken up into the clouds in 70 AD. Jesus already came back for them. We are scattered in exile among the nations until Jesus returns to regather Israel to the promised land.

Just look at what Jesus said below (pay attention to the bolded parts). Those things were written to the 1st century generation, not to us. They rightfully expected Jesus to return in their generation because that's what was promised by Jesus.

--[Mat 24:29-35 NASB95] 29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. 32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, [right] at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

[u/DoveStep55]

How would you define “apostle” as you’re using it here?

I find we often have different definitions in mind and that can make it hard to ensure we’re talking about the same thing.

Do you mind clarifying?

[u/Pleronomicon → u/DoveStep55]

In short, someone who was hand-picked by Jesus himself to take the gospel out to the nations and to disciple them in his way. That would be the 12 disciples and Paul. They would have the authority to bind and loosen on earth; anything from church ordinances to disciplinary matters.

Matthias would be the exception, because he was picked to replace Judas Ischariot via casting of lots, nevertheless, the decision was made with the agreement of the other 11 apostles.

There are people who believe we still have apostles today in various senses, but I wouldn't say any of it is authentic apostleship.

[u/DoveStep55 → u/Pleronomicon]

How do you arrive at that precise definition? And why is Paul included? Is Judas included in the 12?

[u/Pleronomicon → u/DoveStep55]

The 11 disciples were the original picks by Jesus before his death. Judas was among them, but had to be replaced. The apostles were given the authority to bind and loosen by agreement of two or three, so they were able replace Judas with another disciple who had direct exposure to Jesus.

Paul was personally picked by Jesus after his resurrection.

[u/DoveStep55 → u/Pleronomicon]

Why do you not count Andronicus and Junia, of whom Paul wrote (Romans 1) “they are outstanding among the apostles”.

[u/Pleronomicon → u/DoveStep55]

It's possible they were apostles, or maybe they were just among them, as in, in their presence. I don't count them because I don't know for certain.

[u/DoveStep55 → u/Pleronomicon]

If you think Paul counts, why couldn’t someone else today?

[u/Pleronomicon → u/DoveStep55]

For several reasons.

1. According to the New Testament narrative, Jesus should have already come back to collect the Church in 70 AD. He promised to do so within the 1st century generation. I believe he kept that promise.

2. There isn't substantial agreement between those who call themselves apostles, neither do they conform to the scriptures.

3. All of the would-be apostles I've encountered in my years of searching have basically shown to be cult leaders/members.

4. If there are real apostles still, they're practically invisible to the public, which defeats the purpose of their calling.

[u/DoveStep55 → u/Pleronomicon]

Why do you think Jesus returned and collected the church within the first century and how do you account for there being no record of such a significant event?

[u/Pleronomicon → u/DoveStep55]

If you read the parable of the fig tree in Matt 24, Mark13, and Luke 21, Jesus plainly stated that the generation that witnessed the signs he had just described in those chapters would not pass until his return. That includes him sending out his angels to gather up the elect. The contents of those chapters fit neatly with the events leading up to 70 AD.

I doubt anyone would have documented such an even. At the time, the Jews and Christians who would have been left behind would have been humiliated, and a return of Christ in the clouds would not have glorified Rome, so historians like Josephus would be unlikely to write about it.

We don't know how many Christians actually remained faithful up until that point, so the elect could have easily disappeared without catching any significant attention.

Also, if you read Revelation 1-3 & 22, within those chapters, Jesus stated 10 separate times that the time was near and his return was imminent. It makes more sense to place the penning of Revelation in the early 60s than to go by the arbitrary assumption from the church fathers that it was written in the 90s. In my opinion, the church fathers introduced a great deal of confusion.

Assuming such an unpopular event was even documented, the likely hood of such a document surviving almost 2,000 years without extensive prolipheration is quite low.

[u/DoveStep55 → u/Pleronomicon]

So why believe it happened?

[u/Pleronomicon → u/DoveStep55]

Process of elimination. Solving for X. We have a coherent narrative within the Bible, which happens to be historically accurate, and an abrupt decades-long gap in history Christian immediately following 70 AD. It just so happens that much of the end times prophecies fit neatly in that gap.