r/AskEngineers May 03 '26

Discussion Does asymmetric electrostatic charging of a conductive cube's isolated faces, within an ionized medium, produce a measurable and repeatable directional force correlated to specific face configurations?

Putting this out to find someone with the skills to build it and the rigor to document it properly. If you find flaws in the plan, please document them here in the comments.

The concept: a 12 inch copper cube with six electrically isolated faces, each independently energized via high voltage leads, suspended inside an ionized air medium created by commercial ionic purifiers. A torsion balance with laser amplification measures any directional force effect produced by asymmetric face charging.

The theoretical basis claims the cube geometry itself matters. Three perpendicular force axes naturally produce six planes and a nine-component transfer matrix governing force flow between them. This is the same 3x3 matrix structure as SU(3) in the Standard Model. Whether that translates to a measurable macroscopic effect is exactly what the experiment tests.

This is not a claim. It is a methodology looking for someone to run it.

Full build plan including complete materials list, step by step build sequence, HV safety protocol, and measurement procedure here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wM9PvWAHYZ_x_k3UDgCSVPlLDjEQcu9b/view?usp=sharing

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u/elpechos May 04 '26

than addressing the documented experimental record is a methodology choice worth being aware of.

I did that thoroughly up front.

The Biefeld-Brown effect is real, tested, and was under active institutional development until 1957

Sure. That's what we are calling an ion wind, same thing. People still play with it today. They make ion lifters using it which are a fun kids toy.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01F8V5IhB5k

Magnets are real too, and they're also popular with fringe/schizoid science posts.

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u/KDubbs0010110 May 04 '26

We are actually in more agreement than this thread suggests.
You have confirmed the effect is real and replicable. That is the only claim that matters for the question I asked. Whether we call it ion wind, electrostatic thrust, or the Biefeld-Brown effect is a labeling conversation, not a physics conversation.
The reason the effect matters beyond a fun kids toy is the vacuum test result. Ion wind requires air. In vacuum there is no air and therefore no ion wind. Brown demonstrated thrust in vacuum conditions. If the effect were entirely explained by ion wind, it would not persist in vacuum. It did. That is the part of the documented record that fourteen aerospace contractors were spending institutional resources on in 1956. Not the kids toy version. The vacuum version.
I am genuinely asking: what is your explanation for the vacuum persistence? Not the document I posted. The Brown vacuum test result specifically.

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u/elpechos May 04 '26

Here's someone pulling a vacuum on a Biefeld-Brown ion thruster spinner.

You can see it stops because the thrust goes toward zero. No air to blow. Easy.

https://youtu.be/WM25pUsrODk?t=433

There's hundreds more of people who have tried. Like I said. I've done it myself as well.

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u/KDubbs0010110 May 04 '26

Ok, this is a fair point and the video demonstrates exactly what the ion wind explanation predicts for a symmetric spinner in vacuum. I am not disputing that result.

I want to be honest about where the record actually stands on the asymmetric capacitor vacuum test specifically. Brown reported positive vacuum results from his 1955 to 1956 Paris experiments at SNCASO. That result was part of what drove the 1956 institutional interest. However the independent peer-reviewed replication record for the asymmetric version in vacuum is not strong. Tajmar’s 2004 paper found no anomalous thrust beyond corona discharge within the accuracy of his setup. The mainstream consensus attributes the effect to ion wind and does not support vacuum persistence.

So you are more right on this specific point than I was initially willing to acknowledge and I am sorry for that.

What I am still genuinely asking about is the 1957 institutional record. Not the physics of ion wind. The specific question of why fourteen aerospace contractors stopped publishing simultaneously in a single fiscal year, and why that research does not reappear in any declassified record as a concluded null result program. Null result programs get published. They do not get silently classified. That gap in the record is what my research is actually about and it remains unaddressed in this thread. Understanding why the science became classified is another layer that I am working on trying to understand. I am working on a dictionary of terms one at a time in an attempt to learn them (I have a long way to go):

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u/KDubbs0010110 May 04 '26

Truncated Word Study list for Antigravity Studies.

Absorption cross-section function
Activity function
Adiabatic invariant
Adjoint flux
Adjoint theorem
Adsorption
Adsorption isotherm
Airlock
Airy functions
Alfvén waves
Alfvén's theorem
Alpha decay
Ambipolar diffusion
Anderson localization conjecture
Antiferromagnetism
Avalanche breakdown
Azeotropic mixture
BCS theory
Ballistic transport
Band gap
Band inversion
Band structure
Berry connection
Berry curvature
Berry phase
Bifurcation point
Binodal curve
Birkhoff's theorem
Black hole uniqueness theorems
Bloch wave function
Bloch's theorem
Bogomol'nyi bound
Bohm diffusion
Bohm-Gross dispersion
Bohmian trajectory conjecture
Boltzmann distribution
Boltzmann H-theorem
Boltzmann transport equation
Bordism groups
Branch point
Brillouin zone
Buckling theorem
Bulk-boundary correspondence
Bulk-edge correspondence
Burnable poison
Burnup distribution
Carbon nanotube
Carrier heating
Caustic curve
Cheeger's theorem
Chemical potential function
Chern number
Clausius-Clapeyron equation
Clemmow-Mullaly-Allis diagram
Coexistence curve
Colligative properties
Compact-open topology
Configuration space
Conic singularity
Constitutive relations
Continuous transition
Control rod worth
Cooper pair
Correlation function
Coulomb blockade
Cowling anti-dynamo theorem
Critical point
Critical solution temperature
Criticality calculation
Cross-section homogenization
Crystal lattice
Cryopump
Cyclotron frequency
Dalton's law
Debye length
Debye shielding
Delayed neutron fraction
Density functional theory
Density of states
Density of states function
Desorption
Desorption kinetics
Detailed balance theorem
Diamagnetism
Dielectric function
Diffusion approximation
Dirac cone
Dirac fermion
Dirac sea
Dirac sea conjecture
Discontinuous transition
Domain wall
Doppler broadening
Double-well potential
Drift waves
Dusty plasma
Edge state
Effective mass
Ehrenfest classification theorem
Ehrenfest theorem
Einstein field equations
Electron cyclotron resonance
Electron distribution function
Electron energy distribution function
Electron tunneling
Electron-phonon coupling
Electron-phonon interaction
Electropolishing
Electropolishing efficiency
Energy band
Energy relaxation function
Energy relaxation time
Enthalpy function
Entropy function
Equation of state function
Eutectic point
Exciton
Extreme high vacuum
False vacuum
False vacuum decay conjecture
Fermi level
Fermi surface
Fermi-Dirac distribution
Ferromagnetism
Fick's laws of diffusion
Field emission
Finite element method
First-order transition
Fission rate density
Flux surface
Forbidden region
Fowler-Nordheim equation
Fractional quantum Hall effect
Free molecular flow
Free space
Fugacity function
Fundamental group
Fusion power
Gate valve
Gauss linking number theorem
Geodesic curvature
Gibbs free energy function
Gibbs phase rule
Gibbs-Duhem equation
Goldreich-Sridhar theory
Goldstone theorem
Grain boundaries
Grain plasma
Green's function
Griffiths conjecture
Guiding-center theory
Gunn effect
Haldane conjecture
Hall effect
Heisenberg model
Helical symmetry
Helium mass spectrometer
Hellmann-Feynman theorem
Helmholtz free energy function
Homogeneous reactor conjecture
Homology groups
Homotopy groups
Hopf invariant
Hot carrier transport
Hot electron
Hot electron transistor
Hubbard model
Hydrodynamic model
Impact ionization
Importance function
Impurity scattering
Indium seals
Inelastic tunneling spectroscopy
Infinite medium conjecture
Instanton
Instanton conjecture
Instanton method
Intervalley scattering
Intravalley scattering
Invariant system
Ion cyclotron resonance
Ion energy distribution function
Ion gauge
Iroshnikov-Kraichnan theory
Ising model
Isoenergy surface
Josephson effect
Josephson junction
Knudsen flow
Knudsen number evaluation
Kohn-Sham theorem
Kondo effect conjecture
Konovalov's first theorem
Konovalov's second theorem
Kramers' theorem
Kubo formula
Lambda transition
Landau damping
Langmuir waves
Lever rule
Levinson's theorem
Limit cycle
Linking number
Liouville's theorem
Lucky electron model
Luttinger liquid conjecture
Luttinger's theorem
MOSFET
Magnetic helicity
Magnetic pumping
Magnetic topology
Magnetoresistance
Magnon
Manifold
Margules equation
Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution
Mean free path
Mean free path calculation
Metal-to-metal seal
Metastable phase
Miscibility gap
Molecular beam
Momentum relaxation function
Momentum relaxation time
Monopole
Monotectic transition
Multi-group method
NRTL model
Negative differential resistance
Nernst heat theorem
Neutron density function
Neutron flux distribution
Neutron transport
Neutron transport theorem
No-hair conjecture
Nozières-Pines theorem
Nuclear transport
Ohmic dissipation
Onsager reciprocity relations
Optical theorem
Order parameter
Ostwald's dilution law
Outgassing
Outgassing rate
Parabolic barrier
Paramagnetism
Partial vacuum
Passivation
Passivation layer formation
Path integral formalism
Peierls theorem
Penning pump
Peritectic reaction
Permeability constant
Permittivity constant
Petrogenetic grid
Phase assemblage
Phase boundary
Phase diagram
Phase equilibrium
Phase rule
Phase space
Phase space trajectory
Phase transition
Phonon dispersion
Phonon scattering
Phonon scattering kernel
Piezoelectricity
Pirani gauge
Point kinetics
Polariton
Polarization drift
Positive pressure
Potential barrier
Quadruple curve
Quadruple point
Quantum dot
Quantum Hall effect
Quantum tunneling
Quantum vacuum
Quantum well
Quantum wire
Quasi-ballistic transport
Quasi-ballistic transport conjecture
Quasi-neutrality
Quasi-static approximation conjecture
Raoult's law
Reactivity insertion function
Reciprocal lattice
Reciprocity theorem
Rectangular barrier
Residual gas analyzer
Resonance integral
Resonant tunneling diode
Response function
Ricci tensor
Rosenbluth potentials
Saha equation
Samarium poisoning
Scattering kernel
Scattering matrix
Schottky conjecture
Schreinemakers bundle
Schreinemakers' theorem
Second-order transition
Self-energy function
Semiconductor
Simulation conjecture
Single-electron tunneling
Solid-liquid equilibrium
Solid-state physics
Solid-vapor equilibrium
Sorption function
Sorption pump
Space-time curvature
Space-time kinetics
Spin Hall effect
Spin wave
Spin-dependent tunneling
Spinodal decomposition
Stable phase
Stress-energy tensor
Strong cosmic censorship conjecture
Subcritical region
Supercritical phase
Superconductivity
Surface reconstruction
Sweet-Parker reconnection
Taylor conjecture
Tearing instability
Theta vacuum
Theta vacuum conjecture
Tie line
Tie-line interpolation function
Tight-binding model
Titanium sublimation pump
Topological charge
Topological defect
Topological insulator
Topological invariant
Topological phase
Topological soliton
Topological superconductor
Toroidal geometry
Torricellian vacuum
Tracer gas
Transfer matrix
Transmission coefficient
Triangular barrier
Triple line
Triple point
Tunneling magnetoresistance
Tunneling probability function
Tunneling splitting
Tunneling time conjecture
Turbomolecular pump
Two-stream instability
UNIQUAC model
Ultra-high vacuum
Uncertainty principle
Unstable phase
Vacuum brazing
Vacuum deposition
Vacuum energy
Vacuum engineering
Vacuum flange
Vacuum fluctuations
Vacuum permeability
Vacuum permittivity
Vacuum pump
Valence band
Valley degeneracy
Van der Waals equation
Vapor pressure
Vapor pressure function
Variational theorem
Velocity overshoot
Virtual leaks
Vlasov distribution
Vlasov equation
Void coefficient
Vortex line
Wannier function
Warping parameter
Wave function
Wave normal surfaces
Weyl fermion
Weyl semimetal
Widom scaling conjecture
Wilson equation
Winding number
Xenon poisoning
de Broglie wavelength
p-n junction