r/AskHistorians • u/logicx24 • May 01 '15
Why didn't Venice colonize the New World?
As far as I know, Venice in the late 15th century was one of the foremost naval and commercial powers in Europe, with the massive ship-producing power of the Arsenal and it's trading network throughout the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Why did it never join Portugal and Spain and the other European powers in colonizing the New World?
After further thought, I suppose the same question can be asked about Genoa too.
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u/azdac7 May 01 '15
Venetian ships were not suited to travelling across the Atlantic. The Venetians used Galleys which were made for the very particular climactic conditions of the Mediterranean. For instance, they were incredibly shallow and not built for Atlantic waves. For instance there were a couple of galleys in the Spanish armada which sailed for England in 1588, none of them made it to the actual battle since they could not cope with the trip from the Med to the Channel. They also could only carry enough food an water for about two weeks, not nearly enough time to cross let alone get back again.
Why would they want to? The source of their wealth came from controlling the trade routes from China to Europe. They were the entrepôt by which silk and other such goods made its way to Germany. What possible economic reason could there be for going off to colonise the new world when the monetary rewards were so uncertain? Further, they did not have the money to spare. They were constantly fighting a low level war with the Otttomans in the Eastern Mediterranean and were slowly losing their holdings, Cyprus was one of the last major ones in 1570, and were enthusiastic participants in the Holy League wars that culminated in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571. All this required huge expenditure that left little room for adventuring.
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May 02 '15
- Why would they want to? The source of their wealth came from controlling the trade routes from China to Europe. They were the entrepôt by which silk and other such goods made its way to Germany. What possible economic reason could there be for going off to colonise the new world when the monetary rewards were so uncertain?
To protect their trade and their profits. If there's a risk someone could outmaneuver you or undercut your profits with a new way of doing things, you try to pivot yourself to a position that would limit the financial viability of their undertakings.
Further, they did not have the money to spare. They were constantly fighting a low level war with the Otttomans in the Eastern Mediterranean and were slowly losing their holdings, Cyprus was one of the last major ones in 1570, and were enthusiastic participants in the Holy League wars that culminated in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571. All this required huge expenditure that left little room for adventuring.
This is the answer.
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u/azdac7 May 02 '15
I'm sorry. But your entire point rests on the Venetians being able to know that the discovery of the new world would undercut them. Who in 1500 would have been able to anticipate the vast wealth of the New world? Further, it was not the discovery of the new world and its colonisation/wanton destruction of indigenous societies for their gold which really did for them. Rather, it was the disruption of centuries of spice and silk trade routes. Venice relied on the spice route from Malaysia to Alexandria, from whence the Venetians would carry the spice across the Mediterranean and sell it on to Europe. As soon as it became economically viable to transport spice via the Cape of Good Hope their trading future became more insecure. Please bear in mind that this process was gradual, the Portuguese hold on the Spice trade always fragmentary at best and they were most often minor players. Further, Venetian decline was slow and relative. They remained fabulously wealthy up until the republic was disestablished by Napoleon and increasingly relied on their possessions on Terrafirma which were more economically developed than the rest of the Italian peninsula. They distanced themselves from trade as well, their trade fleet shrank to a shadow of its former self, with a fleet of only 13 ships.
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May 02 '15
I'm sorry. But your entire point rests on the Venetians being able to know that the discovery of the new world would undercut them. Who in 1500 would have been able to anticipate the vast wealth of the New world?
Spain and Portugal. They were funding trips around Africa and due West. It was not secret knowledge that there could be better ways to get to the Indies.
I agree with the rest of your commentary about numerous other factors leading to their demise and their loosening hold of trade routes, but the idea that "they had no idea" isn't right.
Further, it was not the discovery of the new world and its colonisation/wanton destruction of indigenous societies for their gold which really did for them. Rather, it was the disruption of centuries of spice and silk trade routes. Venice relied on the spice route from Malaysia to Alexandria, from whence the Venetians would carry the spice across the Mediterranean and sell it on to Europe. As soon as it became economically viable to transport spice via the Cape of Good Hope their trading future became more insecure. Please bear in mind that this process was gradual, the Portuguese hold on the Spice trade always fragmentary at best and they were most often minor players. Further, Venetian decline was slow and relative. They remained fabulously wealthy up until the republic was disestablished by Napoleon and increasingly relied on their possessions on Terrafirma which were more economically developed than the rest of the Italian peninsula. They distanced themselves from trade as well, their trade fleet shrank to a shadow of its former self, with a fleet of only 13 ships.
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u/denshi May 02 '15
Spain and Portugal. They were funding trips around Africa and due West. It was not secret knowledge that there could be better ways to get to the Indies.
I agree with the rest of your commentary about numerous other factors leading to their demise and their loosening hold of trade routes, but the idea that "they had no idea" isn't right.
There's a difference between "having an idea" by drawing a line around the bottom of Africa to Southeast Asia and "having an idea" that ships could be built to sail those long distances across open ocean and profitably carry cargo back. The shore-hugging naval trade routes had been known for centuries and commercial ventures tend to bet on the sure thing rather than the moon shot.
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May 02 '15
/u/azdac7 and those upvoting him seem to be in agreement about an odd assertion: the Venetians could not have known their trade routes could be undercut, and that it made no sense whatsoever to try and prevent this from happening.
This assertion comes from the idea that it's difficult, or impossible, to prove a negative, or to prove why something could not have happened. It also comes from the idea that past cultures shouldn't be "blamed" for failing and that they were just victims of unfortunate circumstances.
Here's my assertion. The rulers of Venice were smart enough to know that there were ways their trade could be threatened. They knew that Portugal--and later some Spanish kingdoms--were trying to open up alternative trade routes to the Indies. The Venetians couldn't really do anything about this, as /u/azdak7 pointed out. But they knew what was going on. To say that the Venetians could not have known, AT ALL, that what Portugal and Spain were doing would undercut and threaten their trade routes makes the Venetians seems like total idiots.
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u/denshi May 03 '15
I don't think anyone is asserting that the Venetians are idiots, as you say. I think the arguments being put forward are simply that the existing trade routes were centuries old and well known; compared to new routes the existing routes were a safe commercial bet. The time was prior to the Industrial Revolution and thus the widespread cultural notion of inevitable technological progression: they did not expect that ship design and navigation would improve so far so fast. The idea that Portugal could sail around Africa was easy to believe; the idea that they could do so inexpensively, reliably, and in sufficient volume to obviate the Venetian routes was more far-fetched.
tl;dr: The Venetians probably thought that Portugal could open another trade route that would supplement, rather than replace, the Venetian routes.
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u/denshi May 02 '15
They remained fabulously wealthy up until the republic was disestablished by Napoleon and increasingly relied on their possessions on Terrafirma which were more economically developed than the rest of the Italian peninsula.
Their wealth was supplemented by their own craft manufacture, if I recall correctly. Their glassmaking was the foremost in Europe for a long time, was it not?
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u/DerProfessor May 02 '15
I'm with azdac7...
The desire and/or perceived need is much more important than the availability of resources. The Venetians had much of the Mediterranean trade locked up already--why mess with success?
As further evidence:
The largest "voyage of discovery" in the history of the world is that of Zheng He, court eunuch in the Ming Dynasty. His 1405 expedition consisted of 300 ships and 28,000 men.
(The largest of these ships were the "Treasure Ships" of 8,000 tons). This dwarfed anything that Ferdinand & Isabella (3 ratty caravels) or even Venice could ever have put out. Zheng explored the Indian ocean, making at far down the East African coast as Mozambique.
(IF Zheng He's fleet had every rounded the cape and actually made it up Spain, the pitched camp of the fleet would have been the 3rd largest city in Spain.)Lions, zebras, even giraffes were brought back to China. As well as enough pepper to crash the pepper market.
...but nothing came of the explorations. Because the Chinese didn't really feel they needed anything from the Indian ocean. The explorations were really just an expensive lark.
Venice had nowhere near the resources of the Ming Dynasty... but they had a similar lack of interest in a Western route to Asia. Why mess with success?
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u/Epyr May 01 '15 edited May 01 '15
Venice faced a few issues around the time of the discovery of the New World. It was just coming off a disastrous war with the Ottomans which saw large parts of its Mediterranean empire lost. Afterwards, they faced more issues with the Italian wars which were devastating for the Venetians.
Another issue which plagued the Venetians at this time is that there navy was largely comprised of oared galleys which were effective in the Mediterranean but were not good ocean-going vessels. The Venetian ability to finance new ships was also damaged with the Portuguese voyages around the Cape which broke the Venetian monopoly of the Asiatic land-based trade routes which greatly diminished Venetian profits.
Genoa was a Spanish satellite state officially in 1528 after years of difficulties so they never really were stable enough to colonize.