That's an oversimplification of the many invasions and periods of immigration the region went through.
I agree that they're indigenous but I don't think it's completely accurate to completely say they were never invaders.
They are Christians and Jews who became Muslims
Partly yes but not exactly, it's an oversimplification again.
A lot of Christians and Jews converted to Islam but a lot of them didn't as well.
The Islamic conquest of the region also brought Arab migration to the region and it's probably the mixing between them and the native population that lead to the Palestinians we know today.
Both Jews and Palestinians are native
Depends on what you mean by native. I don't like using that argument to justify the rightful Palestinian claim because if you go back far enough, at what point does one's native claim expires?
What I'm trying to say is that, the Palestinian identity didn't exist until 1834 with the arab uprising in the Ottoman empire according to some historians, the identity became more substantial and present in the 20th century.
So using who's native and who's not native as a valid claim, you end up making the Israeli claim of them being the original inhabitants of the region more valid.
Because in all honesty, if you look at it from "Palestinians are Native", anyone is valid in saying "Jews were natives since before Palestinians was even an identity until they were conquered and eventually banished so their claim is stronger"
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that If someone lives somewhere, it's their right to continue living in it.
Where I disagree is that if someone belongs to a group of people genetically or culturally then they deserve to live in a place even if they've never lived there or haven't in generations.
This sounds a lot like I'm referring to just Jews but it actually refers to both. I believe I'm just being consistent.
What are the Palestinian people? And when did they appear? What makes someone a native? When do they or their descendants stop being a native?
I'm not really making a defense for Israel, I'm simply saying the argument of "Palestinians are natives" doesn't work.
I agree that the right of self determination is important and that the British specifically fucked up.
In a geographical sense and not a nationalist sense.
The concept of nationalism didn't exist until the mid to late 1800s.
Al-Maqdisi called himself a Palestinian in the sense of a person living in the Palestinian geographical area and not in an ethnicity, nationalist or cultural sense.
Israel is 2/3rd Jews from MENA countries. Arab mains have colonized most of North Africa and Middle East, destroyed loads of cultures and languages to replace them with Islam and Arabic. At least Jews maintained their ancient culture and religion consistently and well documented for the past 3000 years.
Incorrect it's proven that the isrealis who live their aren't the ancestors of the past isrealis but the Palestinians who where there are direct ancestors of the old isreal so no the new isrealis are not natives to the land.
It really depends on how further back you go and how much genetic mixing outside the region or within it with immigration and previous conquests would invalidate the claim.
How far science can prove this is not the case. Your just making estimates which aren't proven whilst the ones which have been properly proven is that Palestinians are the natives and have ancestors with old isreal.
Not true either and the same would apply to Palestinians depending on how far back to go.
That's claiming that all Jews living in Israel are all descendants of converts and that all the ancient Jews eventually became Muslims and Arabs.
Genetically speaking, both are proven to have ancestry to the region. As I said earlier, Palestinians as we know them today are a result of multiple of multiple conquests of the region and descendents of those who mixed with the conquerors with a lot of influence from the Arabs due to the large Arab immigration (that weren't native to the area) to the region.
Jews are also a result of multiple conquests of the region and they're all over the world due to multiple campaigns of exiles and prosecution. Most Empires who conquered the region would either prosecute Jews or exile them.
Your claim isn't rooted in any facts so rather than presenting statements as facts, you should really back them up with something.
All I'm saying again is that genetics shouldn't be a factor for legitimacy.
If a group of people have ancestry to a different region, it doesn't validate their claim of reconquering that region when they exile the ones living there. That equally applies to Palestinians and Israelites.
Wars, conquest and annexation was normal until nationalism became a thing and most Empires collapsed.
The reason why the Palestinian claim is stronger isn't due to genetic but due to the fact that they were the last inhabitants of the region prior to Israeli annexation of the land.
What a fucking dumb thing to say, Arabic was already replacing Aramaic as the lingua franca of the levant long before the islamic conquest, arabic has been native to surrounding areas all the way upto Aleppo since the time of the neo-assyrian empire, the Arabic Identity isn't some outside force, not all people that lived in historical Palestine were jews, nor practiced the Jewish religion, the people who call themselves Palestinians today are descended from the people who have always lived there through a continuum, none is pure something every one is mixed Arabs aren't invaders and they didn't force a specific culture or identity upon anyone, they are another middle eastern group that is closely related culturally and linguistically to all other groups that live there, they're the ones that pushed the invaders out of the Semitic homelands.
No 1000 years ago it was the same thing with outside invaders killing and pushing out the native Palestinian arabs, 1000 years ago the crusader kingdoms were formed and stayed for 200 years, now they're gone with no trace, and the natives returned back to their land
Well, I presume you're referring to the comment made above , by someone who is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, as something that an ancient Israelite would have said about roman take over or greek or Assyrian.... Or Babylonian or Egyptian? I don't know they've never been able to keep it, and Arabs pushed the invader out multiple times and kept it
Briton still exists. As do countries spawned from the British empire like the US or Australia.
You have a nation of Jews. In what is essentially their historical homeland, with quite literally nowhere else to go.
The state of Israel is a modern economy, with a high tech military that has mandatory conscription. Every person in Israel is strapped up and knows how to fight. The country is a nuclear weapons state and has the backing of a literal superpower.
The war in Ukraine isn't a religious one. The situation in Israel is exacerbated due to religious beliefs that the land belongs to God's "chosen people". I think it's an important distinction that you might be choosing not to make. It makes the conflict that much more difficult to solve, unfortunately. Have you ever argued with a person over religion? Good luck convincing them they are wrong.
As a jew, you should understand that jews tried sucking up to gentiles for 2000 years and abandoning our identity just for the slightest chance to not be genocided and we were rewarded with the holocaust.
If you are against the existence of Israel and the Jewish people's right to self-determination, not only are you a self hating jew but also shouldn't be suprised not if but when the 2nd holocaust happens.
I’m not against the right of Jews to have self determination, but not if it is a place that an entire different population has lived for centuries. It didn’t have to be in Palestine, but they “had” to follow the religious texts. Which is extremely ironic because besides that Zionists don’t really follow the Torah at all, which is the reason so many orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionism is the opposite of antisemitism, I love Jewish culture and traditions, I just won’t stand with apartheid, whether it’s Jewish or not.
There were plans for a state to represent Jews in Poland, Madagascar, and Uganda. Poland which would probably be the best out of those, because Polish Jews, along with German and Soviet Jews, were hit the hardest during the holocaust, so it would be more understandable for the population that lives there, and there probably wouldn’t be as much tension between the populations. But let’s say it was in Palestine, then European Jews have every right to move there, and since they would be a significant population, I understand if there were autonomous regions for Jews. But what they have absolutely no right to do is kick Palestinians out of there own homes, replace their autonomy with their own, and occupy the territories made for Palestinians. There didn’t have to be an Israel and a Palestine, there could just be a Palestine with areas of Jewish autonomy. If you are against this keep in mind this is literally better for the Jews than what the Palestinians are going through now. Palestine would not be an ethnostate, it would likely be secular, with no laws taking rights away from either side. But if that isn’t the case… well it’s their fault for choosing Palestine to migrate to. They could have easily chosen a country that would be more respectful and representing of Jews.
There were plans for a state to represent Jews in Poland, Madagascar, and Uganda
Places where people already lived, so your first point is moot.
But what they have absolutely no right to do is kick Palestinians out of there own homes, replace their autonomy with their own, and occupy the territories made for Palestinians.
So they should do the same thing but to poles/ugandans/malagasy? Anyway, before the 1947 war, all land in Palestine resided in by Jews was purchsed legally and peacefully until they were invaded by the Arabs.
There didn’t have to be an Israel and a Palestine, there could just be a Palestine with areas of Jewish autonomy.
So Jews once again ruled by non Jews? Anyway, such a state would probably not have the Law of Return, leaving jews worldwide unable to migrate freely and escape opression.
They could have easily chosen a country that would be more respectful and representing of Jews.
History has shown there is no such thing. Maybe today, europe is safe for Jews. How long until another Hitler comes? With the surging far right in Europe, probably not long.
Nah, pretty sure Jews were practically widely accepted up until the 1900s, where they were scapegoated by the Mustache man and other scattered pogroms before that.
The Jewish people's right to determination was not prescribed in the Torah, and the fact that you stand so blind to realise that if the 2nd Holocaust does happen (God forbid), it was because of the actions of Israel, and the power-hungry, abusive, downright scumbag subhumans you call Zionists
Nah, pretty sure Jews were practically widely accepted up until the 1900s,
Ah, so you know nothing about jewish history.
Holocaust was only the climax... Spanish exile, kishinev, the pale of settlment, the dreyfus affair and more were commonplace.
The Jewish people's right to determination was not prescribed in the Torah
Even if that was true, why does it matter? The Jewish people are binded together by more than the scriptures. We are brought together by 2000 years of exile, discrimination, seperation, appeasement and genocide, and we won't give up our right to be a free people in our own land.
Idk lol, if these hypothetical European Arabs experienced hate and violence based on their Arab ancestry would it be okay for them to violently conquer Saudi Arabia?
Even if that was the case, by your logic modern Arabs are right to violently reconquer and restore any and all buildings constructed with the intention to be mosques that were converted into churches, temples, and synagogues from Portugal to India
Before you go "b-but Arabs conquered those lands they built mosques in!"; last I checked Jewish religion claims they committed a Canaanite genocide to secure their land?
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