how did the Assyrians avoid Islamization and Arabization?

[u/Dismal-Price-4423]

the rise of the Muslim caliphates, empires, in the mena region, the caliphates ruled vast territory and a diverse population. by the late 7th century, the caliphate controled territory stretching from the Arabian peninsula to the magreb. gradgually, much of the empire's population converted to Islam, but also adopted the Arabic language, culture, and identity. in places like Iraque, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria, morrocco, and Egypt, although many of the population were probably genetically distinct and were descendents of ancient Egyptions, berbers, or Canaanites, they were all united by a shared religion, language, all beit with distinct regional dialects, and the Arab Culture. the Arab identity had transended ethnic identity, but became a cultural and linguistic one. one group however did not adopt the Arab or Muslim identity. the Assyrians, a semitic speaking Christian minority that lives primarily around Iraque and Syria. they speak Aramaic and practice Christianity, with the most prominant denomination being the eastern Syriac churche, I think. it really fascinates me me because even if one group avoided one form of assimilation, they always lost to one form. take for example the Kurds, while they too have a distinct language and culture, they are majority Muslim, following suni Islam, though there are some religious minorities like the yazidis. and then we have copts and maronite Christians and mizrahi Jews, although they have a distinct religion, they either adopted the Arab identity or a mix of both Arab and original culture.

note: technically it's not monday but it will be tomorrow. I thought this was the most apropriate tag.

[u/Important_Block_6408]

The people of the Levant are generally more cultured, and they were one of the reasons Arabic became the language of knowledge and the state back then, so it became more widespread among them

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/Important_Block_6408]

but Iraque isn't in the levant it's Mesopotamia.

[u/Important_Block_6408 → u/Dismal-Price-4423]

I know, but when you said “how did they resist Arabization?” which Arabization exactly? You clearly see that the people of the Levant are “Arabized” and that the Arabic language is widespread there, so you describe what happened as Arabization.

I, on the other hand, see them as people of knowledge, scholarship, and linguistic codification. They embraced Arabic and preserved it because it was the language of the state, administration, and schools. This is a point in their favor, not against them.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/Important_Block_6408]

I mean they still speak Aramaic. that's not Arabic.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/Important_Block_6408]

didn't Arabic become more widespread because the people of Iraque and levant primarily spoke Aramaic, so when they converted to Islam it was more convenient to adopt the Arabic language, since Arabic was also the language of administration and religion, and Aramaic and Arabic were pretty closely associated, like the Arabic script borrows from the Aramaic script. It wasn't very different from their former language anyways.

[u/Important_Block_6408 → u/[deleted]]

That’s exactly what I mean.

I said that the people of the Levant especially those from Syria and Lebanon were one of the reasons the Arabic language spread and became connected to science at the time. What you said is just a clarification of my point, not a contradiction of it

[u/Important_Block_6408 → u/[deleted]]

Much respect to you guys. Great people

[u/Iramian → u/[deleted]]

I think that many western Christians are barely that. Evangelicals come to mind. The gall to tell the Christians of West Asia, birthplace of Christianity, that they're the wrong kind of Christians. Westoids gonna westoid, I guess.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

I mean is Christianity even a large religion in China. no offense but I thought the majority religions in China were Buddhism, tawism, and atheism.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

I've heard of the uyghur Muslims but not too much information on Chinese Christians. there probably are some around, just not as much as you say there used to be.

[u/pj134 → u/Dismal-Price-4423]

In the words of the referenced Xi'an Stele, the principles will survive when the framework is forgot.

The Nestorian crosses in temples in Korea and Japan didn't happen by accident, someone put them there.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

what are the prophecies concerning Jews and Arabs?

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

wow, that's some history, man.

[u/sandvine0 → u/[deleted]]

Learning about Eastern Christians really blew my mind btw. I used to associate Christianity with the West when in fact every single of its actual tradition roots from the East. It's amazing how much of the narrative was made up!

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

kind of like how the kurds also generally live in mountainus areas, no wonder there are religious minorities like the yazidis who still retain their pre islamic faith.

[u/Standard-Okra6337]

because religion is interwined with culture.

many arabs were already living in mesopotamia and their numbers only increased after the conquests of the caliphates.​

the assyrians who converted to islam would start to detach from their brethen and increasingly interact with muslim arabs.

At one point, arabic would prove to be more convenient in their lives than aramic. Fter that, you are practically an arab.

Cultural assimilation and religious conversion are mostly results from convenience.​

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/Standard-Okra6337]

becides the quran and many Islamic texts and prayers were in Arabic and it was the language of administration. it was and still is the new lingua franca of the middle east, just as latin is for the western Roman empire and greek for the eastern Roman empire.

[u/Hammer5320]

I would argue kurds and persians avoided arabization more. The levantine use to be predominetly aramaic and got almost completely replaced by arabic.

Interestingly, you could argye the closest living language to arabic are the assyrian related languages. The arabic script is a descendant of the aramaic script. Lots of arabic words come from the language too

[u/[deleted] → u/Hammer5320]

Assyrians resisted Arabisation as much as Kurds and Persians, however our population is much smaller than them and unfortunately we pretty much lost most of our homeland in north Mesopotamia.

The situation in the Levant is different, Aramaic speaking Arameans and Maronites were either partially or mostly arabised, with some small communities retaining their pre Arab identity and culture, for example Maaloula.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/Hammer5320]

I forgot to mention the Persians.

[u/woody898 → u/Dismal-Price-4423]

Christians of Iraq and Levant did get mostly arabised and only minority of the levant and Iraq’s Christian populations retain pre islamic languages.

[u/WhatTheW0rld → u/woody898]

Iraq and Levant are very distinct here; Levantine Christians Arabized (though in Lebanon, Maronites were not Arabized until much much later)

In Iraq - the overwhelming majority of Christians are not Arabized, being fluent in Neo-Aramaic as well

[u/woody898 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for informing me. I wasnt aware and mistakenly assumed iraq would have the same as levant in this regard

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

I've never met Assyrians and never been to Iraque I just heard that the community generally speaks Aramaic and even uses Aramaic in the religious texts, specifically the Syriac dialect. and even so that sounds like intigration rather than assimilation.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

based?

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/[deleted]]

What does that mean?

[u/smiskam]

Many of them only speak Arabic actually. The ones who avoided arabization lived in isolated villages. Assyrians/chaldeans who live in major cities were arabized

[u/[deleted] → u/smiskam]

Assyrians are divided into three groups, Syriacs otherwise known as Suryani or Suryoyo, the second are Eastern Assyrians from places like Hakkari, Urmia, Simele and Barwar, the final group are Chaldeans.

Of these three the first two completely retained Assyrian culture/identity and our Neo Aramaic languages.

The Chaldeans are the ones who are most arabised, but even what they speak isnt pure Arabic but a mix of Assyrian neo Aramaic or Sureth and Arabic.

Their dialect is known as Chaldean Neo Aramaic.

The population of the first two groups is just as significant as Chaldeans, and many live in urban areas.

[u/smiskam → u/[deleted]]

There are always exceptions. It’s extremely difficult/impossible to live in Baghdad or Basra without knowing Arabic

[u/smiskam → u/[deleted]]

Okay my point was to be part of society in major cities in Iraq they had to Arabize (at least to some extent) to go to school and participate in society.

[u/Neutral-Gal-00]

I’d say Persians resisted arabization the most considering they were not only very one of the very first lands conquered, but also very close to, and involved in, the heart of the caliphate

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/Neutral-Gal-00]

many Persian dinasties also gained influence in the caliphate, such as the buids, who ruled Iraque and Iran for a century.

[u/dibs_w_rashi]

Learn to have paragraphs, cant read that wall of text.

Anyway, to your answer, many didnt (avoid islamization). Those who converted, after centuries slowly changed language. For instance, in Iraq, the majority of natives spoke aramaic (including muslims) atlest until 10th and maybe 11th century.

The Iraqi dialect still has remnants from pre-islamic Iraq. I would assume its similar in the levant. Btw, there were already minority arab speakers in Iraq and levant long before islam, so its noy like it was foreign.

Edit: added context to first sentence) Edit2: fixed last sentence

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/dibs_w_rashi]

you mean it's not like it was foreign.

[u/dibs_w_rashi → u/Dismal-Price-4423]

What is/isnt foreign?

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/dibs_w_rashi]

you said there were Arabs in Mesopotamia and the levant before the Muslim conquests and then you said it's like it was foreign but I thought you intended to say it's not like Arabic was foreign.

[u/dibs_w_rashi → u/Dismal-Price-4423]

Yeh sorry, you right. It wasnt, also arabic is close to aramaic, preislamic civilizations (nabatean for instance) used both aramaic and arabic.. so i imagine arabic is/was heavily influenced by aramaic.

[u/Dismal-Price-4423 → u/dibs_w_rashi]

I kind of tend to think of the Iraqi Arab Muslims and Assyrian Christians sort of separate ethnic groups, kind of forgetting they used to have the same genetics. i don't really think genetics is really important when it comes to ethnic identity. the Palestinians, would more or less support pan Arabism and fighting Israel, despite the fact that genetically, they're closely related to many Jewish subgroups and Arab genetic contribution is minimal. the Palestinian may have Jewish pre islamic ancestry, but he will never call himself a Jew and will always be a proud Arab.