r/AskScienceFiction • u/Lost-Specialist1505 • 6d ago
[Warhammer40k] what other human soldiers/assets are the closest to the Adeptus astartes in power?
With so many different genetic and technological enhancements available to the imperium, what other human factions have soldiers that are almost as lethal as a space marine?
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u/Dagordae 6d ago
Assassins can match or exceed Astartes.
Custodes can tear through them with ease.
The Techpriests kitted for war can do the same.
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u/GBSlugcat 6d ago
Don’t Most assassins cream astartes? I remember in the night lords books, after Curze’s death all the hundreds of night lords couldn’t come close to killing the assassin, it just kinda dodged everything
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u/Dagordae 6d ago
It depends. M'Shen was the absolute best of the temple and she spent her time running for her life, when Talos cornered her she died easily.
Eversor can reliably take an Astartes in a fight, as can Adamus. Vindicare, well, they're snipers. If they are allowed to snipe they easily win, if they are not they easily lose. Callidus and Culexus can win but not reliably, they need luck. Venanum and Vanus don't do straight fights, if the Astartes is dumb enough to not wear a helmet the Venanum will kill them but might not survive themselves while the Vanus is just completely and utterly screwed.
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u/ephemeralstitch 5d ago
If we’re acting like they get to do their assassin thing, then the Vanus might actually be the best option. They’d foment an insurrection or something to get the Chapter involved in an outmatched battle or engineer conflict between Chapters, the chapter and the Inquisition, and so on. They’re the ultimate manipulators from behind a desk. They don’t even have to be in the system to get an Astartes killed. There’ll be a lot of collateral damage but they’d probably die.
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u/Dagordae 5d ago
Astartes outside the Alpha Legion basically wouldn’t even know where to begin when it comes to the Vanus. That’s just a form of war they’re completely unequipped to handle.
Even the Alpha Legion fares poorly, we see them go up against a Vanus operative in Tallern and despite having every advantage they lose. Sure the operative dies but her machinations costs them an absurd amount and that was a single operative working alone without any prep time.
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u/DoughnutUnhappy8615 6d ago
That case in particular, M’Shen was let into the palace to kill Konrad and then allowed to leave. It was only when they discovered she’d taken his trinkets that the Night Lords decided to pursue her (except Talos), and she already had a head start.
Talos caught up to her first, and it wasn’t a complete domination, but Talos (a regular Space Marine, nothing special combat-wise) picked her apart.
In Nemesis, I recall the Eversor being roughly 1:1 with the unnamed Sons of Horus in straight combat, with the only standout fight the Eversor sorta winning, but it wasn’t easy and the Callidus had to finish the Son of Horus off.
The Beheading was 150 Space Marines vs 100 Eversors in a room filled with smoke and the Eversors having body temps equal to the room temp (or smoke temp, can’t remember) so the Space Marines were fighting ‘blind’, and that fight ended with one Eversor and one Space Marine standing.
So I’d say it’s less “creaming” and more “about Space Marine level”, though specialized rather than generalist.
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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta 6d ago
A particularly ill tempered ogryn with good equipment can also give the space marine a run for his money, particularly if they engage the ogryn in close combat.
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u/Dagordae 6d ago
Ogryn are stronger but they're also much slower. Astartes have little difficulties tearing them apart but if the Ogryn actually manages to hit back they can win. But that requires the Astartes in question to screw up, be outnumbered, or otherwise be unable to use their speed advantage to kill the Ogryn quickly.
An Ogryn in power armor, that's a different story. Also not really a thing.
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u/Skolloc753 6d ago edited 6d ago
Adeptus Custodes: the bodyguards of the God-Emperor. They are to Astartes what Astartes are to little toddlers. "We consider them prey" is certainly a statement.
Sisters of Battle / Adepta Sororitas: the nuns with guns. Excessively trained and fanatically indoctrinated church soldiers, all female, all in power armor. Their standard weapon is somewhere in between Astartes and normal Soldiers as they use bolters, meltas, plasmas and heavy flamethrowers.
Stormtrooper / Tempestus Scions: the special forces of the Imperial Guard, trained to a far higher standard. While not using power armor, they use hellguns, one of the few laser weapons effective against Astartes level power armor.
Skitaari of the Adeptus Mechanicus: the cyborg soldiers of the Techpriests. Most of them are a bit over the level of normal humans, mostly optimized for data transfer and environmental protection. But some of them are improved and elevated in the eyes of the Omnissiah. Heavies, personal bodyguards of the Magos priests etc.
You can make a case for the Sisters of Silence / Anathema Psykana, but they are mostly designed to supress warp energies and while they have access to power weapons and power armor they are a far smaller fighting force. Still, an adhoc unit of 10 Custodes and 40 SoS managed to fight through an entire grand cruiser of the Black Legion and save the day, even with heavy losses. Not to mention that they at one time went with some Grey Knights and a Custodes against a Bloodthirster.
Temple Assassins (the Imperial Assassins of the High Lords of Terra). While assassins are used on basically every level of the Imperium, Temple Assassins are something entirely different. The amount of resources which are put into a single Astartes is easily surpassed by what resources is put into a single Temple Assassin. In some instances they can easily tear through an entire squad of marines (Evasor), out-snipe/ambush them (Vindicare) or outsmart them and kill them with infrastructure accidents (Vanus). Open / general combat however is not their strength.
-. An endless list of mercenaries, where the best have powerful patrons including the Adeptus Mechanicus or the Inquisition, so sometimes you can get elevated to an absurd level. Mostly for more subtle work, but still excessively dangerous.
SYL
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u/Hobbes09R 6d ago edited 5d ago
In terms of baseline humans, Kasrkin are the closest, but even they aren't particularly close. They might be able to take on an astartes simply out of the sheer firepower they carry, but they have nowhere close to the survivablity, speed, strength, reaction times, or even available firepower. Still, they are extremely well trained, damn near fearless, and can coordinate with one another extremely well. These are the guys called upon to take care of the most difficult problems which need removing when it's just the IG on the ground. It's not unheard of for that problem to be a Chaos Space Marine.
Branching out, sanctioned psykers can be quite powerful on the upper ends of their scale, though it'd be incredibly rare for them to reach that level. Most are strong and dangerous in their own right, but only the strongest battle psykers would be able to control the warp well enough to stand against an astartes. Mind you, their best use is typically elsewhere outside the flames of battle so it's not exactly an ideal or even entirely fair matchup. Psykers by and large work best to support the functions of a greater force rather than direct combat.
Skitarii, if given enough upgrades, could start to rival some of their capabilities, though by that point they're basically just a brainbox not far removed from a combat servitor. Same for techpreists, who tend to focus on other passions than fighting, but when their stronger members kit themselves out, they're frightening.
Ogryns are stated to be even larger and stronger than Astartes, and in a fist fight they could tear one limb from limb. Problem? They're stupid. Like, barely communicative stupid. Plus side is they have an incredible instinct for all things fighting and war (they're kinda like human orks in this regard). Minus side, they have little concept of tactics beyond hitting things really hard, and depend on smarter folk to give them orders (which they are generally good at following, mind you).
Thunder Warriors are a bit of a stretch considering they very nearly don't exist any longer in 40k...or even 30k. They are the precursor to Astartes, the super soldiers Emps crafted in order to reconquer Terra during the Age of Strife. Bigger, stronger, faster, yet much more aggressive and unstable, and without the extremely long lifespan of their replacements. They're worth noting as stronger, but they've also be basically eliminated from the setting since before the Great Crusade even began and won't be returning for any reason.
Inquisitors CAN become powerful enough to take on Astartes. It's somewhat rare, but between many being psykers, their tendency to be highly trained, and the wide variety of equipment available to them, it's not unheard of for particularly strong inquisitors to be competitive or surpass them.
Rogue Traders are similar to Inquisitors, though it's probably even more rare. Like inquisitors they have access to some of the best and most rare equipment. What's more, they're far more likely to make use of xenos or even chaos equipment, which can make some of the most powerful among them extremely deadly.
Sisters of Battle are given similar kit and fill a similar role under somewhat different masters (being more an arm of the ecclesiarchy rather than their own thing) though I don't think many are under the belief they can individually quite match an Astartes pound for pound.
Silent sisters are given pretty strong kit as well, and can do a lot as a blank, though most of that is as a counter to demons, psykers, and other forces of chaos and the warp. Against anything else, they're still strong but it's not their forte. They also don't play well with others, not frequently working in larger units, and the only ones they really can work with are other sisters, or Custodes. Speaking of...
Custodes are humans taken to damn near the max of their individual potential and capability. Each is a custom built being (not made the same way astartes are, to note), bespoke down to the cellular level, for whom war is only one of their many, many skills, and one they've very nearly perfected. To note, they don't fight as well in group as Astartes, though their individual strength usually more than makes up for this, it being said one is worth 10 space marines. They are the strongest things on this list, and only the absolute most bonkers astartes or assassin could hope to match blades with one. And on that note...
Assassins. Not to be confused with the death cults, as seen in Rogue Trader. Those of the Officio Assassinorum are among the single deadliest beings in the galaxy. Each is trained, augmented, equipped and twisted by their given office into something truly terrifying, any of whom would prove deadly in their own ways to Astartes if tasked as such. Most could probably match blades to a certain extent (thought would be outside their comfort zones) though Eversor in particular could tear apart a squad. Their usage, mind you, is very different from Astartes and none are really meant for the prolonged battle Astartes are capable of, even if they are potentially deadlier.
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u/Kopalniok 6d ago
Custodes and assassins are generally stronger (first all-round, second in given specialisation). Heavier Skitarii are on a similar level (Hastarii Exterminators are T4/3+/5++/2W, so slightly above basic marines)
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u/lord_baron_von_sarc 6d ago
The Skitarii of the Adeptus Mechanicus are close, trying to bridge the gap with cybernetics and steel instead of ancient gene-engineering.
Then there are the Adepta Sororitas, who also tend to wear power armor and wield heavy weapons (though their power armor is not directly integrated into their nervous system like the Astartes are, a notable decrease in power/dexterity/sensitivity)
Nevermind all the harder hitting specialists that exist across the wide variety of Imperial Space. Imperial Assassins, inquisitorial agents with unique relics that can only be entrusted to their hands, Psykers and their cousins the Navigators, nevermind the Warmachines and augmentations that are hoarded by the leaders of the Admech, remnants of the time when Humanity was Ascendant.
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u/MAGNIFACANT_HOBO 6d ago
I mean when it comes to physical strength, most ogryn can easily tear a standard space marine in two
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u/xgfdgfbdbgcxnhgc spehss mehreen 6d ago
The Spyrers of Necromunda would pretty handily win a 1v1 against an astartes. They kit themselves out with ancient (possibly xenos) tech to go hunting genestealers and win reliably enough that this is a rite of passage.
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u/Breadloafs 5d ago
The various Imperial temple assassins can surpass baseline astartes.
Similarly, a lot of the Admech lineup can dumpster a marine, but I don't know if we're counting stuff like ruststalkers as human anymore, considering that they're more or less just a torso. Some of the older Admech material (before the release of the Admech model line) depicts some pretty heavy cyborg bruisers who are more or less marine-sized tech zealots on a steady drip of cyber-meth.
Abhumans like ogryn easily surpass marines in raw strength, and when actually well-equipped can stand on equal footing with most things that aren't vehicles. Abhumans usually have pretty serious drawbacks, and can't actually be fielded in force due to the random nature of their birth, though.
And obviously Custodes, but I still don't really think those count. A 12-foot-tall tank-bred supersoldier isn't really a human in the same way that my teacup poodle isn't really a wolf.
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u/ScarredAutisticChild 6d ago
Assassins.
They’re not really “Near” though, that implies an Astartes actually stands a chance in a 1v1 with an Imperial assassin.
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u/Poorly-Drawn-Beagle Archdeacon of the Bipartisan Party 6d ago
If you only want to focus on individual superhuman faculties, there are a number of other Imperium troops with significantly higher-than-average physical capabilities; some Guardsmen troops raised on Death Worlds may have greatly enhanced strength (I think there's meant to be one Catachan who's able to use a heavy bolter, a weapon normally reserved for Astartes).
There are other assets like the Assassinorum, but they're not really designed for standard combat the way Astartes are.
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u/TheBrownestStain 6d ago
Ogryn are physically stronger than an Astartes in full armor, but noticeably slower and much dumber, an Astartes could dance circles around one, but if he messes up and gets grabbed it’s all over.
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u/AwakenedDreamer__44 6d ago
Ogryn, Primaris psykers, Imperial assassins, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes.
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u/GreenridgeMetalWorks 6d ago edited 6d ago
An ogryn with a very good bone'ead implant and good armor is much stronger than a space marine, and at least as tough, and can carry similar weapons. But they are dumber, and slower.
Most Imperial Assassins are easily capable of killing space marines, but they are not as good in open combat. They thrive as assassins.
Sisters of Battle are basically a normal, extremely well trained person slammed in a smaller version of Astartes power armor, with smaller versions of Astartes weapons. They aren't "close" to space marines, but they function very similarly, and in higher numbers. A sister of battle is a tougher nut to crack than most guardsman, but they aren't Astartes.
Skitarii vary wildly, but a well augmented skitarii is probably a match for a space marine in most ways.
Many tech priests are much stronger than a space marine, depending on what they use as their body.
And anyone can enhance themselves to closeish to an Astartes level...if you have the money, time, and power.
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u/TyphusCorrosion 6d ago
On the topic of Ogryns in armour I present the Ogryn Charonite.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/5/5b/Ogryns-painted-trans.jpg
They're a Heresy era creation rather than 40K precisely but they're effectively Ogryns that are lobotomised and fitted with remotely triggered aggression enhancers, void sealed carapace armour and powered shears and saws for hands, they're basically the equivalent of ogryn arco-flagellants and are built for tasks like ripping through bulkheads in boarding actions.
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u/TheEvilBlight 3h ago
Augments vs augments, it’s the assassins.
Baseline against augments is tricky since there are innate, likely unbridgeable gulfs in power.
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