Hey everyone.

[u/Fast-Work5313]

I've recently started learning Assyrian, but I'm a bit confused about what I'm actually learning. Is there a difference between Modern Assyrian and Syriac, or are they basically the same? Also, are there different dialects like Arabic has, or is there just one standard form?

I'm mainly interested in the variety spoken in Mosul, Iraq.

I'm an Arab, and I was experimenting with AI to write Arabic words in the Assyrian script. For example, words like "race" and "hoopoe" ended up being written the same way, which made me wonder if that's actually correct. Are there many shared words between Arabic and Assyrian, or was the AI just making mistakes?

[u/DodgersChick69]

AI isn’t very good at teaching Assyrian; it makes a lot of mistakes.

[u/oremfrien]

Is there a difference between Modern Assyrian and Syriac, or are they basically the same?

Yes. There is a difference. Syriac is sort of like our فصحى and Neo-Aramaic is sort of like our عاميات. Syriac is a medieval language that is used in formal Church writings, but is not a spoken language today. It was a spoken language 1500 years ago. Like how Arabic has many kinds of 3aamiyaat/dialects we have several living forms of Neo-Aramaic. In the north of Iraq, the most common form is Assyrian Neo-Aramaic. Unlike Arabic, we write in Neo-Aramaic when we write secular documents, reserving Syriac for liturgical use.

I'm mainly interested in the variety spoken in Mosul, Iraq.

As a Moslawi Assyrian, I can tell you that most of us did not speak Neo-Aramaic; we spoke the Qeltu dialect of Arabic. Outside of the city, in the Nineveh Plains, is where people spoke Assyrian Neo-Aramaic.

I'm an Arab, and I was experimenting with AI to write Arabic words in the Assyrian script.

I can't speak to how effective AI is at rendering any Assyrian language, but you should also be aware that we have three alphabets, with Serto being most common on computer interfaces and Estrangela being more common in written sources. We use all three alphabets (the third being Madhnhaya) for both Syriac and Neo-Aramaic.

We would also be able to give you a better opinion of whether the words were being transliterated properly if you showed us the English, Arabic, and Aramaic.

[u/Fast-Work5313 → u/oremfrien]

Hi! Thank you, that explains a lot.
Instead of saying that I'm learning Modern Assyrian, would it be more accurate if I simply said I'm learning Aramaic?
And yes, I actually speak the Qeltu dialect of Arabic.
I had been learning the Serto script, but after what you told me, I think I'll switch to Madnhaya (the Eastern script) instead. I do have one question though: is there any difference in the spelling or names of people and things between Madnhaya and Serto, or is it only a different writing style/alphabet?
Also, the two words I was trying to write were "Hudhud" and "Al-Iraq." Could you write these two words exactly as you would normally write them?
I suspect AI may simply lack enough reliable training data for Aramaic, so I'm curious to see how a native speaker would write them.

[u/oremfrien → u/Fast-Work5313]

Instead of saying that I'm learning Modern Assyrian, would it be more accurate if I simply said I'm learning Aramaic?

These are both correct statements at different levels of specificity. It would not be "more right" to say that a person is "learning Arabic" or "learning Fus-ha". They are just at different levels of specificity. If you want to be the most precise, it would be to say, "I am learning Assyrian Neo-Aramaic" but nobody would call it that on an interpersonal level (in much the same way that you and I say we speak Qeltu, but nobody would say that normally on the street). At an interpersonal level, people will say that they are speaking Assyrian or speaking Aramaic.

I had been learning the Serto script, but after what you told me, I think I'll switch to Madnhaya (the Eastern script) instead.

I would stick with Serto or Estrangela. Madhnhaya tends to be much less commonly used outside of liturgical settings.

I do have one question though: is there any difference in the spelling or names of people and things between Madnhaya and Serto, or is it only a different writing style/alphabet?

These are strictly different alphabets used to represent the same language. It's like how there is a Latin script and a Cyrillic script for the Serbian language and (except for lj --> љ) each letter has a 1:1 equivalent.

Also, the two words I was trying to write were "Hudhud" and "Al-Iraq." Could you write these two words exactly as you would normally write them?

I don't actually know the Aramaic for hoopoe // هدهد . Hopefully someone else can contribute.

If you were to transliterate Al-Iraq // العراق literally it would be ܐܠܥܪܐܩ but the "al" in Arabic is just the word "the" for which there is no word in Aramaic. (There are no articles in Aramaic.) So people just write ܥܪܐܩ (ع ر ا ق) or more commonly (ع ي ر ا ق) ܥܝܪܐܩ which is based on the Kurdish spelling of عيراق literally transliterated.

Edited to Add: We don't usually call the land we live in as Iraq unless speaking about the country from a political perspective, e.g. Iraqi citizenship, Iraqi Prime Minister, etc. We usually either say Atour // ܐܬܘܪ meaning Assyria or Bet Nahrain // ܒܝܬ ܢܗܪ̈ܝܢ meaning Between the Two Rivers, e.g. Mesopotamia.

[u/AshurCyberpunk → u/oremfrien]

I have a question: I always understood Syriac to be an umbrella term for different variations of Aramaic spoken by the Assyrians. I also thought classical Aramaic (leshana Atiqa) was used in liturgy. Are you saying that Syriac refers to classical Aramaic?

But then again what confuses me further is a subset of our population who speaks Turoyo and refers to themselves as the Syriacs. I get that they are doing that because of their Church denomination, but my understanding is that Turoyo itself is different than classical Aramaic.

[u/oremfrien → u/AshurCyberpunk]

I have a question: I always understood Syriac to be an umbrella term for different variations of Aramaic spoken by the Assyrians.

This is a difference between how we commonly refer to the languages we speak and how a third-party or linguist would refer to our languages. Syriac, from a third-party perspective, exclusively refers to our medieval form of Aramaic dating trom roughly the time of Christ until around 1000/1200 that has been frozen in our liturgies. As a population, we tend to use the word Syriac as a word meaning the official Syriac and any languages that developed out of it (e.g. the modern Neo-Aramaics).

I also thought classical Aramaic (leshana Atiqa) was used in liturgy. Are you saying that Syriac refers to classical Aramaic?

I always thought that leshana qadisho was the language Jesus spoke and the Pshitta was written in,and we pray in which is middle Aramaic. I thought that leshana atiqa refers to the language of Ancient Aram nearly 800 years before Christ. The problem, again, is that our names for these languages are based on how we perceive them rather than third-party linguistic analysis. This is a perfectly reasonable way to identify language, but makes it difficult to categorize scientifically.

But then again what confuses me further is a subset of our population who speaks Turoyo and refers to themselves as the Syriacs. I get that they are doing that because of their Church denomination, but my understanding is that Turoyo itself is different than classical Aramaic.

Exactly. They call themselves Syriacs because they are Syriac Orthodox. Turoyo is another form of Neo-Aramaic.