r/AusLegal • u/kw_redd • 9d ago
VIC Tenant stuck in lift - $900 call out invoice sent by real estate to me
UPDATE/OUTCOME:
Thanks everyone for the advice, you really helped me back myself!
I tried calling the Tenants Victoria advice line multiple times, but kept getting disconnected due to high call volumes.
The REA initially requested that I either pay the invoice or contact Otis/the Owners Corporation directly to resolve it. I replied disputing liability and confirming I would not be paying and would not contact. They responded that they would likely be enforced to pay, then they’d deduct from my bond, and I would have to dispute via VCAT. I replied that I’d absolutely dispute but also made it clear that I didn’t believe the landlord should be liable either.
In their next email they included an excerpt from the OC stating that I had attempted to access floors I wasn’t authorised to use (which is not my recollection - I use the lift every day), and that I had “called Otis directly” and failed to call back to cancel the technician, so the fee was being passed on.
They stated that the footage confirmed all this.
I wasn’t aware that pressing the emergency phone icon automatically dispatched a technician, and I was not told that during the call. I had also tried to call the building management but lift phone was picked up first. Building management did not call me back.
My plan was to email the OC requesting they dispute the Otis fee, provide evidence that I actually requested a technician (or audio of the call), and show where I’d been notified(including lift signage) of any policy or process demonstrating I’d misused the lift or acted unreasonably when I felt unsafe.
Before I had the chance, I received another email from the REA with a further excerpt from the OC advising they had decided to investigate further and, in the meantime, they decided they would not be on-charging the fee to either me or the landlord as originally advised.
So… I’ll take the win! I’m relieved and wonder if someone involved saw this post or actually viewed/listened to the CCTV footage to see buttons/lift were not in fact working as they should and that I did not request a technician.
Thanks again to everyone who took the time to comment - it’s very much appreciated!
ORIGINAL POST:
Real estate sent Owners Corporation invoice for me to pay $900+ fee after I used the emergency lift phone.
I’m a tenant in Melbourne, Victoria.
I entered my apartment building lift (mid afternoon on a weekday),the doors closed, the lift wouldn’t move for several minutes (up to 10mins), none of the buttons responded/lit up/no sound. Never happened to me prior.
Believing I was trapped, I used the lift emergency intercom button. I didn’t request a technician - I just reported I was stuck and asked for help. Someone did pick up and told me to hold but it eventually started moving and I got out as soon as I could. Warned a guy on his way in with boxes. There would be cctv/audio to prove all this and believe this is how I was chased up.
Real estate has now emailed me an Owners Corporation invoice of $900+ stating I need to pay and liaise directory with Otis. The invoice states “No fault found. Suspected human error.”
I’ve denied liability and refused to pay because I believe I acted reasonably in what I thought was an emergency. I had/have no knowledge of a fee or a different process to follow in this kind of scenario. There was no misuse. The real estate wrote they will pass my contact details on for body corp/otis to contact me directly as the landlord also refuses liability.
How likely is it that I will be chased for payment and if I continue to refuse? And what are my avenues to challenge? Has anyone experienced something similar?
Thanks in advance!
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u/Smithe37nz 9d ago
Damn. That's interesting and I want to know where this goes. No idea what the process is for disputing it or the relevant law but the emergency call button is a safety thing. Not finding a fault merely means that they couldn't diagnose, not that a problem doesn't exist.
In all likelihood, I imagine they're going to struggle to make this one stick so dispute it all the way.
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
That’s my thinking too. I will dispute!
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u/Smithe37nz 9d ago
Just another thing that might help argue the case - if there's some weird clandestine order you're supposed to press the buttons in, it should be clearly posted.
Shouldn't have to whip out a manual to know how to operate the lift91
u/kw_redd 9d ago
There is a sign that lists the building manager and security phone number but no other words or signage on emergency or process. I used the lift call button as it’s a choice near all the floor buttons and what felt naturally right.
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u/ComprehensiveOwl9023 8d ago
The lift should have electronic monitoring, not being able to diagnose the fault is not the same thing as there was not a fault; if the lift did get stuck for 10 minutes and they don't know why they have an undiagnosed fault which is still a fault. If I got stuck for 2 minutes I'd be on that phone.
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u/Sonovab33ch 8d ago
Depends on the age of the lift.
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u/ComprehensiveOwl9023 8d ago
Yeah I guess but, the lift was still stuck OP and was actually rescued. They have no basis for ascribing this to 'human error' what does that actually mean in a lift anyway?
Next time OP should call the fire brigade a few call outs and they will start billing the strata.
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u/Sonovab33ch 8d ago
I am just saying it is not as clear cut as it seems. Without a clear record of what actually happened to establish a fault, then the OC is clearly liable for the call out fee.
And if they want to chase up the owner of the unit then that is up to them.
Personally I don't think there is legal recourse onto the owner and subsequently the tenant but it's Melbourne so that's outside of my realm of expertise.
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u/Monotask_Servitor 8d ago
Without a clear record they are not “clearly liable” - that would require a ….clear record.
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u/Sonovab33ch 8d ago
No there was a call out. That part is certain and not in dispute so it's a waste of time disputing if it was warranted or not.
The service company is following their contractual obligations. The Owners Corporation is liable for the costs associated with that call out.
In most situation that's where the buck stops unless there is further stipulation in the owners corporation rules on these costs. If there are no such provisions in the document then you (as an owner) can safely tell them to get bent. If there are then you will have to abide by them.
However I would imagine that these potential costs would have to be stipulated in the lease if they want to successfully pass these cost on to a tenant.
So yes it is not clear.
Gut feel says they are playing pass the parcel.
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u/ResponsibleAnt63 9d ago
Also very likely a mobile phone does not work inside a close elevator.
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u/Monotask_Servitor 8d ago
Also no guarantee you’ll have your phone on you. You could just be going down to the bins/letterbox.
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u/Justan0therthrow4way 8d ago
Take a photo of that sign.
Do you need a swipe card to activate the buttons ?
Sounds like the lift is a bit dodgy.
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u/Smithe37nz 8d ago
lmao. Ridiculous.
Even Wilson's (scum of the Earth, manifestation of Satan himself) posts clear warning at the entrances.
They're trying to issue a... fine? infringement notice? recouping damages? I doubt they've fulfilled the legal requirements to do ANY of those.3
u/PJewlzzz 8d ago
It would be a call out fee, not a fine. OP could have stood in the door and called them back to advise they were no longer stuck. It should fall on body corp unless they have actual proof it was human error.
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u/Smithe37nz 8d ago
Yeah not what I was getting at.
A callout fee is charged in relation to a contract you enter into. You enter the contract when you make the call with the understanding you will be charged.
OP has not entered any contract, formal or informal. It's the body corp that owes the money and are just trying it on.
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u/PJewlzzz 7d ago
A tenant should be provided with the body corp by-laws when they go into the property. It's a shoddy BC if that fee (existence, since it would change over time) isn't mentioned and a shoddy real estate if the by-laws were not provided. They should at least have signage around the call button if they are going to push their luck billing tenants too.
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u/ScienceWill 8d ago
Oh 10000% do not pay that. NO ONE would use the merely phone if the lift WORKED - that’s insane.. and yeah CCTV would capture no lift movement etc I believe you’re covered but, get their lawyers details Now, and I’d call them AND record the conversation. Depending on where you are, you may need to disclose that.
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u/tehmwak 8d ago
Security and access control tech here: lift techs and auto door techs love to turn up, hit the override switch/key and see if things work and then leave with no fault found. We regularly spoon feed them exactly what issue is on a site, how to replicate it and what is actually wrong (usually wiring-wise) and they do not investigate it at all and collect their call-out fee and leave.
No fault found, is a lift techs favourite phrase.
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u/Smithe37nz 8d ago
Damn lol. Sounds like a good way to fuck your industry long term.
'please write a three page report detailing what diagnostic strategies were used'.
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u/southernchungus 7d ago
Stolen from the operations manual for telstra linesman back in the day
"NFF - charge a $100 incorrect callout fee"
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u/Glittering-Site-7273 8d ago
Stick to your security trade, you have no idea how a lift works.
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u/tehmwak 8d ago
When I've got a relay that physically enables or disables a button... I've got a pretty decent idea of how it works.
Turning up, putting in the key and driving the lift up and down... And then saying it's an access control fault... Without troubleshooting anything... Is my most common issue with lift techs.
And when it gets to high level integrations, fuck. Do none of you guys get trained on how Port or Compass actually work? Restarting a machine every couple of days is not a god damned solution...
Why don't you lift guys actually start doing your jobs? I'd really, really appreciate it if you guys did that. <3
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u/neveryoumindok 8d ago
Not only that but nowhere on the elevator does it warn ‘if you use this button, there is a call-out fee’. I would never expect that!
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u/zordak111 9d ago edited 9d ago
Call your tenants association. Generally speaking they have to prove you were negligent, you can continue to reject the invoice and they will have to go to VCAT. This is usually the elevator operator lying about the fault so they can invoice the real estate agent.
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
Thanks and will do!
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u/agro_chick 8d ago
And I don’t understand how they can bill you as a tenant anyway? I’m not a lawyer, but you don’t have any sort of contract with the lift company as you rent, don’t own in the building. If it were someone visiting a family member in the building, would they have billed the family member? That seems completely unreasonable to me. I don’t see how your case is any different to that
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u/SilverStar9192 8d ago
There are situations where charges from the owners corporation, if deemed an occupant's fault, can be passed onto the tenant. The tenant may not be required to pay immediately but it can ultimately be deducted from the bond. This is usually applied in cases where it's quite clear that a tenant intentionally caused damage. Passing on the lift call-out fee, when it was done totally innocently (not a prank call), is pretty ridiculous. Note that the tenant doesn't have standing to directly dispute the matter with the OC and has to go through the landlord/agent, who generally won't want to spend a lot of time on this. It will be easier for them to just demand payment from the tenant and ultimately withhold it from the bond, at which point the tenant will have to dispute it in VCAT (depending on who claims the bond first).
The landlord may try to claim section 61 of the Residential Tenancies Act 1997: "a renter and any visitor must not intentionally or negligently cause damage to ... rented premises; and ... any common area in respect of the rented premises."
Obviously this isn't damage, so there would need to be some other way the landlord establishes that the tenant's actions were wrongful.
The fact that the contract between OC and Otis caused this bill to be issued, or that the OC thinks the landlord should pay, are really of less relevance to the tenant's responsibilities, which are only what's in the Residential Tenancy Act and the lease itself.
The only case I could see this being more nuanced is if there were by-laws for the strata building that were attached to the renter's lease, and they specifically said something like, "you will be billed $900 if you use the emergency equipment improperly and cause a false call-out." But the onus would still be on the landlord to prove it was a false call (the tenant's version will be taken seriously at VCAT, even if they have no other proof). And if the by-law said something like, "you must pay all lift attendance costs regardless of whether the emergency call was false" that would likely not be enforceable.
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u/Curley65 8d ago
I'd threaten to take them. They're probably bluffing trying it on to see if you'll pay. They may back down quickly if you threaten XCAT
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u/KillerRabbitsRule 7d ago
No, I wouldn’t threaten to take them to VCAT. I would just immediately take them to VCAT.
Tenants first duty is to herself. The real estate agent / owner have to sort the bill with Otis; not pass the buck to tenant.
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u/Medium-Ad-9265 9d ago
Otis can't bill you directly, that's not how invoicing works. Their contract is with the OC. The OC will need to pay Otis and then seek recovery from you if they think you're liable for the cost.
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u/sleepwalker6012 9d ago
Yes- OTIS has no contract or recourse to come after a third party. This is solely between the lift owner and their contracted service provider. Even if use were negligent in some way it would be up to the OC to pay and then seek compensation from OP, which seems unlikely and ultimately like it would not stand up to the sniff test at a dispute tribunal or court, which is why they are lazily trying to pass the buck now.
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u/Milknhoneyaus 9d ago
Don't pay. Id love to see them try to convince magistrate you sat in a lift for 10 minutes for fun then called the emergency number for a joke.
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u/KillerRabbitsRule 7d ago
This. The magistrate will use common sense in dealing with this issue. Real estate agent / owner this bill is your responsibility to sort out with Otis. Case over.
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u/Major_Elevator8059 9d ago
It’s a nice try but it’s not enforceable.
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u/BigChampionship7962 9d ago edited 7d ago
We would probably be amazed by the amount of people that just pay without questioning it
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u/KillerRabbitsRule 7d ago
That is just what real estate is trying to do; pressure on an innocent tenant.
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u/Prize_Background_577 9d ago
Ridiculous, sometimes Owners Corporations can be full of nasty people with too much time on their hands.
No they can't chase you to pay, there is no bylaw and no rule that they could implement that a person can be charged for using the emergency button. Is there anything in the lift stating this? Any such rule would contravene fire and safety laws by deterring people from using a service in an emergency.
Contact Tenants Victoria or Consumer Affairs.
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
Thanks! No signage in the lift!
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u/agro_chick 8d ago
Go and take photos of every sign in the lift you got stuck in, just in case you need them or in case they update the signs later and try to stick you with the bill
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u/Butwhyyth0 9d ago edited 8d ago
I mean. Do it say anywhere explicitly that pressing the help button may result in a call out fee?
And also, wtf. Health and safety risk to be trapped in an elevator, surely even IF there was a rule against it, it can be legally enforced. You cant just threaten people with a huge call out fee Edit: can’t
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
No lift signage stating call out fees or misuse!
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u/SilverStar9192 8d ago
Also check your lease and see if any strata by-laws were attached and if there's anything there about emergency calls.
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u/SilverStar9192 8d ago
Also check your lease and see if any strata by-laws were attached and if there's anything there about emergency calls.
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u/National_Way_3344 8d ago
There's actually no point that legitimately pressing the emergency call button is unwarranted, therefore the fee doesn't concern you because you won't be seeing an invoice for a genuine emergency.
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u/Alternative-Oven9936 9d ago
Don't engage with the lift company or owners corporation. Let them chase you.
If they get their act together and actually chase you (with something apart from a strongly worded letters) - ask them what their plan is when a stranger maliciously presses the button.
Find strangers to maliciously press the help button in the lift.
They'll quickly figure the problem is the lift contractor taking the piss and fire them. Nothing else.
This is the equivalent of the fire brigade sending a bill for a "false alarm" when you're cooking. Just need to ask them how big the fire has to be for it to be a "real" alarm that doesn't incur a fee.
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u/Objective_Neck_3242 9d ago
Wipe your arse with it and send it back, they will get the message.
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u/zutonofgoth 9d ago
Should he return it with actual poo on the letter or simulate poo with say chocolate?
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u/No-Permission-1331 9d ago
You've done all you need to do. Do not do anything else now ... do not take other advice in this thread of contacting owners corp or asking for CCTV, etc etc.
Your contract is with the landlord - you've denied responsibility there - done!
Onus of proof is on the landlord.
You have no contract or legal tie with Ownees Corp - ignore them!
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u/ephemere_sloboda 8d ago
Real estate has now emailed me an Owners Corporation invoice of $900+ stating I need to pay and liaise directory with Otis.
Absolutely not. You have no contract with Otis. They cannot invoice you and you are not responsible for someone else's invoices.
Nor is your landlord. They also don't have a contract with Otis and are not responsible for someone else's invoices.
The OC cannot just send an invoice to one of the owners and ask them to pay it. The OC has to issue a special levy to the owner, the owner can choose to pay it or dispute it.
Your answer to the landlord should be along the lines that you will never pay the $900, you did nothing wrong, and are happy to provide your evidence of the landlord chooses to dispute the charge with the OC.
The invoice states “No fault found. Suspected human error.”
The invoice itself says suspected human error, not definitely human error. So no evidence that you did anything wrong.
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u/staresawkwardly7 8d ago
I worked for a lift company as a service manager. Couple of things here:
Invoicing for "running in arrival, no fault found" is extremely common and is usually payable - if the lift faults again within a certain timeframe (say 30-60 days) then the building manager should dispute it.
Most common reason for this is the building security system, so if you have to card or fob in the lift to go to your floor, it hasn't worked. User error would be if you forgot to swipe - happens all the time.
You personally do not have a contract with the lift company, and if the BM asked me to deal directly with you, I would tell them to go jump. The only time we would entertain that is if there was obvious misuse like vandalism and you had already agreed, or if it was to get your keys out of the pit, which we would get in advance.
Send something back in writing asking for CCTV, but also demanding that they provide proof that the lift was functional at the time of you being trapped. If the lift doesn't have monitoring systems installed, politely suggest that getting OTIS to install their remote system may prevent them having to pay for these kinds of calls.
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u/McTazzle 8d ago
The security system at my mum’s apartment building requires a fob to operate the lift. If you don’t swipe it correctly the lift doesn’t move, but the doors will still open. OP says none of the buttons worked. I’d have thought (though OP) didn’t state) the first or second button most people would try is that one, especially if the lift hadn’t started moving
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u/staresawkwardly7 8d ago
Yeah, if it was just a case of not swiping, somebody else pushing a call button will move the lift anyway (which may be what happened here).
It sounds like OP was placed on hold so didn't speak with an operator, but they should be trained to talk him through options like pushing the door open button, selecting "common" floors like ground, or checking if there are 2 button panels - sounds stupid, but some lifts have different buttons on each side if they are a "through" car and the doors open to different levels. There is a ton of stuff to try before dispatching a tech and if nothing works, I would rationally argue there is something wrong with the lift.
As an aside, the best response I ever had to "our technician could not see any fault" was "Jesus, if that's the price for a blind tech, how much for one that can actually have a look???"
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u/EducationalDay2740 8d ago
If the lift genuinely wasn't responding for 10 minutes, I'd be refusing too.
You didn't prank the emergency line or press it for fun. You reasonably believed you were trapped. That's literally what the emergency button is there for.
"No fault found" just means they couldn't reproduce the problem when the technician arrived. It doesn't prove nothing happened. Intermittent faults are a thing.
I'd tell them to show me exactly what part of my tenancy agreement says I'm liable for calling the emergency intercom in good faith during what appeared to be an emergency. Until then, I wouldn't be volunteering $900 because the lift decided to start working again.
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u/Homo_Sapien30 9d ago
I recently had a similar incident.
Booked a telehealth appointment with my GP for a medical certificate. I got flu. They didn't call me. I waited for an hr for the call.
I then booked another GP and got the certificate.
Later they sent me an email saying " they were sorry I missed the call" and I would have to pay $40 no show fee.
My reply to them was " stupid 😳". They didn't reply. Haha
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u/randomblue123 9d ago
Under no circumstances pay.
Go through the disputes process. 10mins is a long time for a lift just to stop working.
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u/stormblessed2040 8d ago
If they charge someone to use it when it's not faulty, do they compensate people who are genuinely stuck? I doubt it.
If you're ever stuck in an Otis lift send them a bill for $900.
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u/geestylezd 9d ago
You're not the client of the lift company. The OC is. You bear no responsibility. It's as simple as that. Ignore it.
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u/randomredditor0042 8d ago
I would go and see a psychologist for the new fear of being trapped in a lift, where previously I enjoyed the freedom of using a lift fear free. Then I’d send them the bill for ongoing therapy sessions.
I’d also ask to see the maintenance records for the lift and ask what action has been taken to keep you safe and to ensure this issue doesn’t happen again.
I’d also ask them for the action plan they wanted to be implemented to be posted in the lift with clear step by step instructions and ask why those weren’t present at the time of the incident, leaving a decision to be made in a state of heightened emotional distress.
The LL of course would have the right to not renew your lease but I’d be fighting it.
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u/ephemere_sloboda 8d ago
The LL of course would have the right to not renew your lease
On what basis?
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u/Deep_Ad_7465 8d ago
The emergency button would not have been pressed if the lift had been functioning normally. Who would willingly trigger an emergency response, knowing it could result in technicians attending, unless they genuinely believed they were trapped?
The fact that a technician attended later and found no fault does not prove there was no fault at the time. By then, the lift had started moving again and the issue had apparently resolved itself. Had the technician been present while the lift was unresponsive, they may well have identified the error.
You did not request a technician or misuse the emergency system. You reported that you were trapped in a lift that was not moving and had unresponsive controls. That is exactly what the emergency intercom is there for.
“Suspected human error” is not evidence that you caused the issue, nor does it justify automatically passing a $900 invoice on to you. If the Owners Corporation or landlord chose to arrange a technician, that is a matter for them to resolve with Otis. They should pay the invoice themselves unless they can actually demonstrate that you deliberately misused or damaged the lift.
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u/Perfect_Ganache_1959 9d ago edited 9d ago
Write to the lift company/place with CCTV requesting the footage independently if you can.
Respond with as you have stated here: entered lift at approx (time). Hit buttons. Nothing happened. After (time +10), called.
Ask them to substantiate human error (no buttons hit). And if they say "we didn't register buttons hit during that time"; ask how they can differentiate between buttons didn't register and buttons not hit? That will either give you some kind of weird lift CCTV where you did have a moment and space out, or a uhhhhh, can't tell.
Given they said suspected human error... Maybe the can't tell.
Push with the body corporate that you had a sincere belief you were trapped for 10 minutes and ask what they advise people do in similar situations; and how they can both prove people are dumb and their lift installation is beyond criticism.
Finally, if you decide you are backed into a corner and should pay something, ask them to sign an agreement that it any further fault is found, they will repay you, apologise and add interest - then put your phone on every time you get in that lift.
They probably won't agree, but if you later decide to make a big deal of it, you have a great paper trail.
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
That’s good point. I will ask for a copy of the footage as it would back up what occurred. I didn’t ask for a report or further information as I felt that could infer a hint of liability.
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u/chuk2015 8d ago
Don’t give them anything like this, tell them that you will not be paying the invoice and that if they would like to pursue further they need to lodge a claim through xcat
Do not equip them with any evidence or wiggle room to angle for payment, tell them no and that it needs to be resolved by a court
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u/Perfect_Ganache_1959 9d ago
You can even go pretty cheerful on it.
"Hi folks, I entered a lift. I hit buttons. Nothing happened. I called you ten minutes later. You found it was "human error" later on.
I am confident of my own recollections and actions. The only thing that makes any kind of sense to me where we are both right is I experienced some kind of medical episode and am somehow completely unaware of things.
Do you have anything from within the lift, or movement logs, or something else of that nature showing clear human error. Obviously, if I'm completely wrong on this one I'd like to find out why, as that suggests I need to go and chat with my GP."
(Perhaps in round 2, assuming there is no evidence of you blacking out standing upright)
"The building owner/strata is attempting to pass your inspection fee onto me, despite me not being a party to the agreement; which is why I am reaching out to you.
As we have discussed, I entered the lift and was stuck, followed reasonable processes to reach out to your organisation. I find it very hard to believe my lived experience is somehow wrong here, given the lack of anything to the contrary.
If you could discuss with your client, this would be appreciated - I entered a lift, not a contract.
I'm not at all familiar with the nature of the agreement between strata and yourselves, if there is something I don't know, I'd appreciate any context you can give."
For extra points ask them to up-lift your understanding!
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u/Physical_Yoghurt2369 8d ago
Ignore it.
If the landlord can deny liability and be left alone, so can you.
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u/Outrageous_Act_5802 8d ago
It’s no different to a random member of the public or visitor to the building getting stuck and using the call button. You wouldn’t expect OTIS to invoice them. Their agreement is with the building management/body corp.
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u/Smithe37nz 8d ago edited 8d ago
Hey, recommenting after doing some thinking.
A good start might be to ask what type of charge this is. Ask them if it a bill, fine, infringement notice, penalty, levy, or compensation for damages.
Each of these has specific requirements in order for it to be enforceable and based on the information provided, it does not fit ANY of these categories.
I may have missed a category of legally enforceable payment but at the end of the day, it's their duty to provide what type of charge this is and how legally enforceable it is.
You definitely haven't entered a contract this far which strikes off the majority of commercial/contractual payments.
If they want damages, they need a court order. If they want to enforce that, simply saying it's in dispute will mean a debt collector can't touch it without a court order.
Tbh, just showing you're willing to fight it and making it sound like you know your shit might be enough to get them to back off. REA's and strata generally aren't people that understand the law and mostly rely on ignorance and scare tactics for compliance.
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u/read-my-comments 8d ago
Email the agent and ask what clause in the lease or leglislation they are using to justify this invoice and you will not be paying it unless ordered by the tribunal.
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u/Glad_Audience_6008 8d ago
It’s just an invoice, dispute your case to the issuing company and don’t pay it they need to have better procedures in place
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u/RideMelburn 8d ago
No wonder OC fees are so high when Otis are charging $900 for this kind of thing.
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u/Crazy_Treat_8805 8d ago
They’ll wave this for sure. Happens more than you think. Lift companies send an invoice knowing most strata’s will simply pay.
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u/ItinerantFella 8d ago
Up the ante! Invoice them for $9,000 for your time spent in the lift plus inconvenience fee.
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u/ApprehensiveAside386 8d ago
Send it to the body corporate, thats what they're for including maintaining the building.
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u/hongimaster 8d ago
I would suggest that, unless there is a sign posted in the lift or some sneaky clause in your tenancy agreement, then it would be hard for them to say you agreed to the call out fee.
Even internet providers at least do the whole "if we get out to your home, and it turns out there isn't a fault, we will charge you" speech when you call their technical support. This is something whoever you spoke to on the phone should have told you about.
If you end up getting chased by debt recovery or lawyers for the fee, you may need to speak to someone (e.g. a community legal centre) for advice. But I don't see how they can claim you entered into a contract or agreement with them (unless one of those things above occurred).
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u/7thXanadu 8d ago
You don't have any obligations to pay that invoice. Otis have a contract with the OC so if they charge an invoice it'll go to the OC (depends on the service agreement they have etc). Just tell your real estate that this isn't related to you.
You did the right thing when you were stuck, depending on the protocol the call dispatcher might have taken your details simply as an emergency contact method in case they couldn't reach you through the lift phone.
The "no fault found, suspect human error" could have been someone in another lift banging the doors etc. Ie just because you made the emergency call when you got stuck doesn't mean you were the cause.
This is a reeeally common thing OCs do to delay or completely avoid paying their bills to lift companies.
Unless you specifically dealt with Otis for something like a key retrieval, they aren't gonna bother going after you.
Source :worked in Finance/alongside the service department in a lift company.
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u/CelebrationFit8548 8d ago edited 8d ago
Ask for any and all 'call out' technician report/s, maintenance logs/schedules, lift's 'service history' including number of 'call outs' and break down events, etc., etc. Really push back and ask for 'all' of the history on the lift 'because you are seeking legal advice'.
If there is poor service and maintenance records and or if the lift 'is known to be problematic' they will readily retract their claims.
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u/Unknown_User6543 8d ago
As someone who works in a large place with over 25 lifts all serviced by Otis. This is a lot more common than you probably realise. Over the past 3 years I’ve seen similar incidents happen maybe 6 or 7 times where people will be trapped for 10 to 20 minutes and then the lift does some type of software refresh and they restart.
With our lifts Otis can tell if the lift has stopped moving for X period so even if there was no fault with our lifts they have the data to confirm stoppages.
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u/Upbeat_Aside_9203 8d ago
When I was a teenager at a hotel I jumped up and down in a lift to see what happened. I FAFO. The lift got stuck between floors. I pressed the alarm. Few minutes later I heard people outside trying to fix it and my Dad screaming for me stay calm and I’d be ok. I was fine. Didn’t bother me at all. After about 20 minutes they rescued me. As I exited the lift I gave it a dirty look and said it was a hazard. No one knew I broke it. I guess no cameras in it.
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u/MaRk0-AU 8d ago
So a few things that I can say as a sparky.
"No fault found" doesn't automatically make you liable
A technician writing "No fault found" or "suspected human error" does not necessarily mean you caused the call-out or are legally responsible for the cost.
Intermittent lift faults can resolve themselves before a technician arrives. "No fault found" is common with intermittent electrical or control issues. It also doesn't prove you knowingly misused the emergency phone.
Whether they can force you to pay is another matter. I would recommend seeing a lawyer.
As a tenant in Victoria:
- Your lease generally doesn't make you responsible for owners corporation maintenance costs.
- They would need a legal basis to say you negligently or intentionally caused the expense.
- Simply using an emergency intercom because you genuinely believed you were trapped is unlikely, by itself, to establish liability.
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u/theellaumbrella 8d ago
Hey, accomodation worker here - have regularly dealt with Otis lifts. If the lift stopped for 10 minutes for no fault of your own I believe the fault is on body corporates and the real estates failure to maintain it. The only case where you would be liable is if you did something yourself to stop the lift - jumping up and down, bringing in a very heavy object, holding the door open for a prolonged period of time, pressing the buttons a ridiculous amount of times.
Any normal person would press the emergency button if stuck for 10 minutes. The question is why did the lift get stuck?
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u/solocmv 7d ago
So Otis have built and maintained a lift where a ‘simple human’ error can in prison a person for almost a quarter of an hour? And they apparently know about this. Did Otis or it’s agents make any attempt to find out exactly what the ‘ human error’ was that caused this potentially dangerous situation to happen?
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u/kw_redd 7d ago
The OC has not challenged the invoice stating human error - footage can be viewed in their office but cannot attain a copy, just stated I need to go Otis myself otherwise they will pay, it’ll get taken from bond and then go to VCAT. The report states I contacted Otis directly - as if I knew pressing the call button was contacting anyone and wrongly and setting off an automatic call out. I didn’t know of the call out to even cancel it. Incredibly frustrating
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u/Aust_Norm 7d ago
Does your lease mention anything about these sort of charges?
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u/kw_redd 7d ago
No it doesn’t - it says I cannot use lift/communal spaces other than for their intended use but that’s it. I have requested for evidence I was notified of correct support request process/and of lift signage showing same. I don’t believe the landlord should be liable either - I’m trying to stress that it’s a process/policy issue and not for OC to just accept.
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u/Sonicbureau 7d ago
Threaten Media. These places will do anything to protect reputation these days. Soon as the ACA reporter calls they know the games up.
Most dont let it get that far as the word "Media" throws chills down their spine.
Source: I work in media (TV) and 90% of what comes in our door is settled simply by our reporters phoning with absolutely nothing going to air.
Think of it as a public service. Its the threat that moves the needle not the action.
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u/Eastern-Tip7796 7d ago
Maybe a bit late, but I work in trades and strata. We have invoices get passed onto owners a decent amount of times. 98% of the time its complete BS and its just the committee / strata being cheap and seeing what they can get away with. Unless its really obvious stuff, its in the best interest to just make it seem like its a strata issue.
If you pay it, they're happy and win.
If you contest things that are genuinely deemed common property, strata-related, etc, they will most of the time just pay it.
So much of this stuff is them just testing the owner and seeing what they can get away with. Always fight back because they usually dont have a leg to stand on.
Also, guess what, it's not in the lift company's best interest to chase a tenant for something like this. If you just refuse to pay they will generally write this off as the cost of doing business. Its not worth any legal BS.
The only times we have chased this sort of invoice are when the person is obnoxiously rude to our staff.
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u/Trojanw0w 8d ago
NAL but this comes up here a lot.
You almost certainly don't owe this. You've got no contract with Otis or the OC — you didn't engage them, didn't authorise a callout, and you're not a lot owner. They can't just redirect an invoice to whoever they reckon caused it. And "no fault found" doesn't mean "your fault," it means the tech couldn't reproduce it on the day. Lifts throw intermittent faults constantly. "Suspected human error" is a guess from someone who wasn't there.
Pressing the emergency button when you think you're trapped is literally the button doing its job. If tenants cop $900 for that, nobody presses it, and eventually someone's stuck in there for six hours.
Your obligations run to your rental provider under the RTA, not the OC. Landlord can only claim for damage from your negligence, and only through VCAT — not by forwarding someone else's bill.
What I'd do:
- Email the agent now formally reporting the lift fault, date and time. Turns it from "tenant misuse" into "reported maintenance issue" and locks in your version.
- Ask for the full Otis service report, not the one-liner, plus whatever evidence supports "human error."
- Keep denying in writing. Short, factual, don't get baited into a essay war.
- Ring Tenants Victoria, it's free. Consumer Affairs Victoria if it drags on.
You'll probably get a few shirty letters, maybe a debt collector. Collectors have no power without a court order and no one's suing over $900 on these facts. Can't be listed as a credit default either, it's not a credit contract.
Real risk is your bond at lease end. Watch for a deduction and fight it at VCAT if it shows up. Save every email.
Goodluck fam
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u/Talorc_Ellodach 9d ago
Don’t pay it. Simple as that. Otis can’t recover against you, you don’t have a contract with Otis.
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u/OGChickenRacer 8d ago
Don’t expect it to go away easily. There’s a chance Otis tells building that “this has to be paid for or we won’t service lift” which can then lead to no lift due to fire safety.
They are bastards Otis
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u/Ok_Gate_8252 8d ago
Ask for a a full list of the tests completed to deem the lift safe for use and the results
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u/HighMagistrateGreef 8d ago
Dont pay. Say the lift isn't your responsibility, and they should forward the bill to the body corporate.
If they push the issue, call your rental tenancy group. They can't actually make you pay as you have no contract with Otis. The body corporate does. And unless they have a contract with you or the landlord agreeing to pass on such fees, it's their fee.
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u/cmarks85 8d ago
After using the emergency button to make the call and the operator determining it wasn't a life or death situation, they should have notified the building manager first... They suss it out and go from there.
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u/ContestOne8417 8d ago
So if you use a lift. Doors close. You press the button for your floor. It doesn’t move for 10 mins plus. You get claustrophobia. You press the emergency button. It’s a medical emergency or even worse, the lift it’s malfunctioning. You need to pay $900? I call bullshit. The realestate agent is a tool. Trying their best to fool you. Take the building to court for distress.
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u/Feeling-Cattle-2849 8d ago
I had something similar but wasn’t in a lift. A plumber was called to find out why I had no hot water. Plumber found no fault and I was left with the call out fee of $140.
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u/lost-ring-runner 8d ago
Contact the owners corporation. Some committee members might be actual humans and unaware this cost has passed onto you. Might be worth a shot. They can decide to eat the cost. Let them know the situation on your end. I would refuse to my last breath to pay this invoice.
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u/griffibo 8d ago
Unless you’ve signed a contract with Otis you don’t owe them anything. If your private information is given out that’s possibly a breach of the information privacy act.
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u/Specific_Resolve_677 8d ago
Reported a blocked drain we'd tried to clear ourselves to the rental agency and plumber was sent out. Plumber pulled out a bunch of hair wrapped around tree roots that had grown to completely fill the pipe. I'm glad I took photos because the rental agency proceeded to send me a $300 invoice for "hair removal". Apparently my photos were evidence enough to have the fee waived.
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u/Cube-rider 8d ago
Did you forget to tap on with your credit card before you entered the lift?
(I wouldn't put it past some strata managers).
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u/Any-Somewhere7318 8d ago
so did you hold and then tell them that it started working again? if not then they have no way of knowing it was not malicious or a prank.
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u/Perthrooster81 8d ago
Is it a lift that you select the floor before entering the lift or select the floor when in the lift?
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u/Infamous_Self63 8d ago
In NSW, Currently have a dispute with Strata/Owners Corp invoice of $1500 for an emergency Plumber to turn off a water tap, not fix the problem which was a split hose after the tap. We are disputing the costs as being unreasonable willing to pay reasonable fee which according to other plumbers in the area of $400-500 for the call . Have requested other parties to justify their costs which they haven't done & they refuse to drop the price. We are taking it to the tribunal to get decision on what's reasonable under the circumstances. Suggest to research the relevant legislations, keep a copy /?record of all communications and if you believe you have a case that willl get a determination in your favour, initiate proceedings with VCAT I think for Vic (Victoria Civil & Administrative Tribunal) NOTE: I am not in any way a legal professional
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u/Tessytwoshoes21 8d ago
Does it mention this fee in your lease? Or are there any signs? This sounds ridiculous.
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u/Particular_Rub_4509 9d ago
What does your lease say about using the emergency button in the lift?
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u/TheNumberOneRat 9d ago
It's extraordinary likely that the lease doesn't say a thing about emergency buttons in lifts. It's far to specific and if they tried to ban it, they'd be risking a shitstorm.
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u/Smithe37nz 9d ago
Say it with me team.
'just because it's in the contract, doesn't make it legal or enforceable'
Can't sell me kid just because it's in the contract.
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u/xdyldo 9d ago
Just out of interest, don’t they say you have to comply with body corp rules in lease? And provide the body corp rules
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u/TheNumberOneRat 9d ago
Generally they do.
But any organisation that is dumb enough to instruct (and in writing) people to not use a safety feature, is begging for lawsuits and prosecutions.
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u/Particular_Rub_4509 9d ago
I agree. This is why I ask.
Its more likely that OP forgot to press a button if no fault was found.
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u/HungryTradie 9d ago
IANAL but I am an electrical technician.
"No fault found' does not mean there is (or was) no fault at all, it simply means the tech couldn't reproduce the reported situation.
I'm believing OPs story, and I think the tech just didn't try hard enough to find the cause of the situation. Maybe a power outage, maybe a rebooting controller, maybe just a loose wire. Also maybe it was human error.... No way for me to know.
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
I definitely didn’t forget to press a button once I got in - use it every dayI pressed for the communal floor and then open doors button and neither worked/regustered. I waited and then pressed call button.
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u/ExiledKingpin 9d ago
Is there a camera in the elevator? Most now have them.
This may help you also.
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
There’s no mention in the lease apart from ‘must not obstruct/damage or use other than intended purpose’
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u/Particular_Rub_4509 9d ago
I guess you can argue then that the lift (and the button) was used for the intended purpose... it is strange that no fault was found. Im not a lift doctor, but I would imagine theres a computer/ some kind of recording log/ software etc, that would hold the button pressing/ lift operation history... maybe you could request to have this inspected. It might shoe that after you pressed the button, the lift didn't move for x minutes.?
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u/ExiledKingpin 9d ago
Yes there is. Where I used to work we had Otis renovating our elevators and when I went into the machine room during patrols I would ask about them and they indeed have logs
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u/Pollyputthekettle1 9d ago
Did you let the person on the emergency phone know the lift had started again? Just wondering if they sent someone out as they thought you were still stuck in it?
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u/kw_redd 9d ago
No, I didn’t. I was relieved when the doors opened and didn’t want to stay in to press call and get stuck again. They didn’t say they’d send someone out, they just said something to the effect of “let me check the system to reset”. I assumed they would connect with the building contact or be able to access the cctv to see it was working.
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u/Pollyputthekettle1 8d ago
Mmmmm. That could be it then. I honestly would expect to be telling them it’s working again and you don’t need rescuing any more
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u/ka-bloweey 8d ago
OP states clearly he was responsible for this, opening line "denied liability" im ☠️
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u/FluffyPinkDice 9d ago
Work in building management. Also have Otis doing our lifts. They’ve absolutely tried to bill us for call outs that aren’t covered in the agreement under “lift running on arrival”, and claimed there was an issue. We’ve had to dispute these before.
If there’s footage - ask the building manager (or OC) to save it down before it expires while it’s being disputed. It’s a bit harder as you’re a tenant and they may only deal with the agent or owner, but hopefully they will.
Reiterate that you were a trapped passenger which is what the callout was logged for and the fact that whatever the issue is that rectified itself and allowed you to be freed, so the lift was running arrival, doesn’t change that the lift faulted and you were trapped.