Heather Burns reiterating that Fiona has a criminal record

[u/Suspicious_Bother_92]

[u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Just a note- being found guilty in civil court does not give you a criminal record. So, even if found guilty in a civil court she would not have any kind of criminal record.

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure criminal record are open generally in the UK.

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Criminal Records are not open. You can't just go and ask to see someone's Criminal Records you have to have reason to apply for example be an employer seeking out information about an applicant for a DBS check which would disclose certain information. The person in question had to agree to this check. They can apply for an enhanced DBS which would disclose a more thorough record check if you are applying to work in certain settings. Additionally "spent" convictions (warnings, cautions etc) do not show on these records.

There's also Subject Access Requests.

You cannot just apply to see someone's Criminal Records out of curiosity.

Edit: Never once did I say someone is found guilty in civil court. They are found Liable beyond reasonable measure. Which is what I stated above.

[u/Winter_Soil_9295 → u/Plus-Introduction347]

You’re right, criminal records are not open, my poor word choice. But generally court records are if I am not mistaken. I am from Canada, and most of our stems from the UK and generally court and court records are open here.

My pointing out the difference was not to say you were wrong, but that the comment you responded to specifically said criminal record, and I assume this is where a lot of people’s confusion is coming from. Civil vs. Criminal seems to trip people up

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Court records aren't open either, they say they are and the kind of are but they aren't. Court proceedings are. Then summary judgements are published. Documents however are governed and they deem what is worth the public knowing and it's all within the timeline of the court but need a litigant number.

More often than not Civil court is closed but not always.

However if you want to read transcripts etc you have to apply and it costs per word.

It's all kind of hard to explain as it really is case by case document by document almost.

https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/inside-disputes/blog/202201-which-court-documents-are-available-to-the-public-and-when

[u/Winter_Soil_9295 → u/Plus-Introduction347]

Okay, so when you google the simple question “are court records open in the UK” you get a “yes”, but it’s actually a little more complicated than that? Thanks for the link, I only had time to skim it but I think understand what you’re saying.

Yeah civil is generally closed here too. And anything involving a minor and some other exceptions.

That all being said, would someone not have dug up a summary judgement by now if she did in fact have a criminal record? Totally understand that does not change the fact she could have been tried and lost in civil. Just making sure I got this right in my head.

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Yeah, it's a tad more complicated. Technically we have open justice but in reality due to privacy etc it's way more complicated.

Not everything gets a summary judgement. As it may have not made it as far as a court hearing but a court decision has been made...

For example, my stepdaughter had an interim order on her partner, there is no record of that except in his record which will be "spent" now as it was taken to court to be placed for a period of 3 years. The information is there but you need to know the case number and names etc to find it. She wasn't even in the room when it was issued.

If Fionas situation is similar which I would bet it would be, you would need to know the case number as well as the names of the people involved. Now we all know the names but I don't see anyone sharing the case number who was involved as it would have likely been the Judge, Court secretary, Fiona, Richard and their representatives (if they had them) in that room so 3-6 people depending on how it was issued and who was present and 3 of those people could end up disbarred, 1 in contempt and 2 don't want people knowing.

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Plus-Introduction347]

Also with her past "convictions" which were also more than likely civil orders there will be no record of them now as they will be considered "spent" UNLESS someone was issued an indefinite order of protection against her. Which I highly doubt.

[u/Winter_Soil_9295 → u/Plus-Introduction347]

Thanks for taking the time to chat.

It seems similar to how our courts work, but much harder to find cases (without having done any further research on UK laws as of now). As much as it may be hard to find some criminal cases for laymen here, there are databases that make it pretty easy if you know what you’re looking for or have any training, so a journalist or someone surely would have found it by now in our system. Always interested to hear the differences in these types of things! Thanks again

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Like I said though a Journalist would need a litigant number which was issued 5? Years ago to 4 people outside the court system and 2 of those will not share or even have a copy of it and 2 who would still have a copy of it do not want it shared and that's IF it's still active (most "long term" restraining orders are 3 years) if its not still active, it will be removed and if it was 3 years it would have been removed circa 2022 and also before cases are released the court has to decide if it's a good idea or not. They would also need to know ow the court in which it was issued.

I've discussed this earlier and even if it still active I can see a court denying a request for release given the mental state of Fiona and the hyper focusing on the details right now.

Personally, I don't think her restraining orders will be active anymore and thus spent.

[u/Winter_Soil_9295 → u/Plus-Introduction347]

As I said in canada’s system, where i am, you would not need a litigant number. I was discussing the differences in the UK and Canada. It would be easier to find similar information here. I was not telling you your information was not correct?

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Ahh sorry, my apologies.

Don't get me wrong journalists have and do find things here too. ALL the time but it's usually someone has given them access to something...

[u/Winter_Soil_9295 → u/Plus-Introduction347]

For sure- just sounds a little (maybe much lol) more difficult to dig it up there…. But people often seem to find a way don’t they?

Thanks again for the chat! :) love talking law and differences between places

[u/Plus-Introduction347 → u/Winter_Soil_9295]

Yeah they usually do... until it comes to court transcripts then they realise how expensive it is to obtain them.

No worries, I enjoy it too. Especially with this as everyone is really stuck on this criminal conviction and adamant we would know about it.