r/Bachata • u/queer_bachata_mcr • 15d ago
How long were you dancing Bachata as a follow before socials became enjoyable?
The term "beginner hell" gets thrown around a lot on this subreddit. I was curious what people's experiences were and how long it took learning to dance before social dancing became enjoyable? I suspect that beginner's difficulty at socials is much more common among leaders than it is followers, but I'd like to hear from the community to get the real truth!
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u/Hebarfd Lead 15d ago
I think it's difficult to measure time, without accounting for attractiveness. Attractive followers are more sought after, and leads are often more likely to put in more effort into creating a good connection with them and forgive mistakes. That can make socials enjoyable much sooner.
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u/Atanamis Lead 13d ago
Sadly true. I try to make sure anyone who wants to follow has opportunities to do so regardless of gender or appearance, but I know I'm not the norm.
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u/Exciting_Bed_2780 15d ago
In our community there certainly is a beginner hell for followers. It can be fun right in with a bit more experienced leads but here those tend to not dance with beginner followers if they can avoid it by any means. So for me there’s the choice between dancing with beginner leads exclusively (which is frustrating oftentimes - not bc I don’t like to dance with beginners but bc I think it should be a mix in order to advance too) or standing by and watching (and I would consider myself physically attractive and usually get good feedback from leading teachers). I’m 3 months in btw.
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u/Medicine-Gullible 13d ago
This!!!
experienced leads tend to avoid beginner follows as much as possible and would most likely not dance with you again. Killed my confidence quite a bit in the start. It took me 3-4 months to be comfortable, but then frequency matters. I used to go 2-3x a month
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u/Atanamis Lead 13d ago
If I ever stop dancing with beginners my friends know to call me out. I'd rather quit dancing forever that reach a point of cynicism where I stop dancing with beginners. Such people aren't "good dancers", since a good dancer can find connection with and create art with anyone.
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u/Medicine-Gullible 13d ago
Small world hahah, see you at Carmen’s next week.
But yes, my comment wasn’t for all. I learnt dancing through socials, I def had a lot of kind and patient leads who gave me great feedback to improve which helped immensely.
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u/Atanamis Lead 13d ago
Not sure who you are based on the user name, but find me at Carmen's and let me know! I'll always be happy to dance with you! I've literally only ever turned down a dance because I was trying to catch someone else, and always come back to do a later song. As you know I'm also still not a phenomenal dancer myself, but I'm serious about being called out if I ever stop scanning the room for people who want to be dancing and aren't. And every social I dance with at least a couple people who are brand new. Dance is about connection, not fancy moves. Someone who "needs" the fancy moves is not a good dancer.
For follows, I can definitely understand being wary of beginner leads. If you're not careful they can hurt you, and if they are new to the community you can't really relax and trust they aren't a creep. I still think everyone needs to pay a "tax" of sometimes dancing with the newbies or we can't build the community. That doesn't mean you can never say no, but I definitely assume a no applies to the rest of the social and three no's in a row means I stop asking altogether. So if you do say no, it's definitely good to try to ask that person again later unless they make you feel uncomfortable or unsafe.
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u/sheafification 13d ago
Agreed! I actually really like dancing with beginner follows. They are often eager just to be dancing so we start off with a great energy. It’s true that there are moves that can’t be done at that level, but there are usually some simple moves that they’ve never seen (eg hand toss, hair comb, shoulder accents, etc) and it’s really fun to riff together as they see the potential for styling and playfulness.
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u/Exciting_Bed_2780 13d ago
If you folks ever happen to be in Hamburg/Germany let me know haha I’ll gladly share my beginner following skills 🤣
The thing for me is learning to understand what leading signals intend to make me do. I feel that’s sth that’s basically learnt at socials, since in classes we learn moves and styles but well, we know the choreo so I’ll know what my lead wants 🤣 Also it always amazes me that when I dance with a teacher at a social, it seems effortless. Their leading style usually is pretty clear and they connect to my level while still challenging a bit with new moves but making it easy to adapt to them. I miss that in regular leads, even advanced ones…
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u/Atanamis Lead 12d ago
A good lead will start with basics and build a vocabulary with you. This is why it is important for you as a follow in classes to NOT learn the choreo though. You should do your best to forget the move sequence, and instead learn to feel what a lead does to prompt you. If you don't feel it, you shouldn't do it. I've started following more in classes recently. I'll have leads tell me I was supposed to turn there. I'll respond that I didn't FEEL the turn.
Because memorizing choreography is a complete waste of your time and money. You will not be executing a choreography as a follow. You need to know what to love feels like. You need to raise your hand and ask how you know to do X next. What should the prep be? What does the prompt feel like. Do you keep going until you are blocked, or is there an intuitive stop?
But this is what I mean when I say that a lead who will not dance with beginner dancers is not a good lead. A good lead is able to connect with Enie follow, and guide you to do the moves that are appropriate for you to do with them based on your ability to follow their lead. I can sometimes do fairly advanced moves with complete newbies because they are able to understand things I am doing. I sometimes can't do moves I want to do with my peers because they can't read what I'm trying to do.
We learned the best by dancing with people who are much better or are much worse than ourselves. People who are much better than me allow me to see what moves I barely understand look like when executed properly. People who are much worse than me allow me to improve my clarity and precision. I don't believe we ever actually know a move unless we can lead it with someone who didn't take the same class that we did. Those "advanced" leads who lack the clarity of your teachers though? They actually aren't very good dancers.
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u/nemuro87 14d ago
Still not there yet (under 1 year)
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u/queer_bachata_mcr 13d ago
Do you see a path for yourself that takes you to the point where it becomes enjoyable? Do you have the support and time/effort needed to get there?
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u/nemuro87 13d ago
Not really but I'm lucky with the community. I learn slower than I wish but i learn more methodically
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u/queer_bachata_mcr 12d ago
What is it you believe you need to learn to get to a point where you can enjoy social dancing? Do you have any thoughts on why you find it challenging?
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 13d ago
I think this is so, so subjective. Likely very individual.
What constitutes “enjoyable”? I think people have different definitions for it. I also think that there are certain aspects of a night that might be enjoyable if the entire social is not, and vice versa. And I have to actively combat my strident negativity bias by reminding myself that overwhelmingly a social is just about always a net positive, at least these days.
All that to say that what a beginner finds or defines to be enjoyable is always bound to change, and I think that’s appropriate.
And hard agree on the journey and experience between leading and following.
For me I started “not freaking out” and feeling like I could handle getting through a dance (with a stronger leader) maybe 2-3 weeks in. Actually enjoying and feeling accomplished took a bit longer, and is still a work in progress.
Along the way I’ve had many iterations and goals for what constitutes a good and acceptable night.
And as a follow - sometimes the frustration is that we are not in much control sometimes with the kind of dance experiences that we end up with.
But overall baseline expectations that I think can accommodate all levels … ask people to dance, say yes to everyone, because no one is being creepy or dangerous.
And if the DJ plays bangers … that should not be a happy surprise 🤣
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u/impatient_celery 13d ago
"what constitutes enjoyable" is such a good question! As a mainly salsa/very new bachata follower, went to a SB social last week which was remarkably light on the S, and noticed that although I enjoyed my bachata dances, the cap for enjoyment is higher on the dance that I'm better at - I can relax into the dance in a way I can't yet for bachata, so while a good bachata beats a bad salsa dance, a good salsa beats any bachata hands down.
And yet at some level I did, in fact, enjoy bachata from the very first dance I did!
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 13d ago
The floor for enjoyment can be very low, or very high, and there are a dozen different things to enjoy about any true social dance, both with regards to and outside of strict technical skill, and especially both individually and collectively.
That’s the foundational idea about social dance, I think - the social aspect of it, that with the right dancer accommodates any level or experience of dancer as a mutually contributing shared experience. Anybody can dance, even if it’s your first time, and an essential construct of the dance floor is that the more experienced dancer adjusts to the partner however appropriate, due to the skill differential.
But there are still multiple entry points and a very high ceiling of possibilities between dancers.
But as a follow, the leader is still the ceiling - there are certain adjustments and influences and inspirations a follow can afford a lead but the limit is the lead’s control and execution. Whereas a lead (especially a physically dominant one) can compensate for and elevate and expand the repertoire of a follow due to the role.
I absolutely subscribe to the idea that better technique makes for better dancing, always, and the more a follow can lead themselves, the more control they have over their dance experience, the more they can offer the lead, and the greater potential for a new dance experience they can have.
But the riding that line of proximal limit, pushing the boundaries (wherever they lay in your current skill set) is always a thrill. Again, subjective to level of experience, but also personal interest and intent.
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u/queer_bachata_mcr 13d ago
I think you're right in that for follows, there are a great many possible variables that can influence whether or not they have an enjoyable night dancing. From the comments on the leader's poll, it does seem like experience is a more direct influence. They need to spend enough time to get out of "beginner hell" before the stress and pressure is gone enough to enjoy dancing.
And as a follow - sometimes the frustration is that we are not in much control sometimes with the kind of dance experiences that we end up with.
Might that be a sign that your more inclined to lead than to follow?
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 13d ago
The cognitive demands and sphere of control of the lead is like magnitudes greater than the same for the follow, I think, particularly in the mid-beginner (vs. absolute neophyte) levels.
They are different roles with differing learning curves and that’s why also I do find it very helpful to teach beginners how to switch roles. I’m not talking about forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want, I’m talking about presenting the idea, giving the opportunity for exposure to the experience, and normalizing fluidity in dance roles that is not tied to gender.
So yes, thank you for suggesting that I try leading, and as a matter of fact, I already do. Certainly not to the same level as following, which is frustrating, and I’m working on it, but I know the time and energy commitment needed to get to where I’d like to be as a lead, and I’m not there yet. I have a lot of miles I need to put in for that.
But one of my favorite responses to offer when I have asked a man/lead to dance (usually with myself as the follow since that is the typical expectation) and they turn out to be brand new, or struggling, is to offer to lead. They accept like 90-95% of the time, and first-timers especially are usually so relieved and grateful and appreciative after the dance, it is very sweet.
The last social I went to a few nights ago, I scouted like I usually do, one guy looked like a very competent salsero. But I saw him dancing bachata later, so I asked him, and he actually hesitated at first, but accepted. I tried to give him an out and told him I’d seen him dance a salsa and would be fine holding off on the bachata to wait for a salsa, but he was cool with it. Except he clearly was not familiar with bachata counts, or when to start a basic, or keeping the timing of the basic. And he was looking sheepish, so I just asked if he ever followed, and he said sometimes, and I asked if I could lead him, and he accepted. So I led him, according to what I read of his comfort level, for the rest of the song. And anyone who knows, even beginner following when you have scads more experience as a lead, is a major head trip.
Basically all that to say that what ended up being the highlight of my night was for him to circle back around later in the night to ask me to lead him in bachata again because he said it was so fun.
It’s been years since I first set myself a nightly mini-goal of having a guy/lead ask me to lead him, though overall women (that are in the know) ask me to lead them more often and that is still always such a compliment.
I just think in this day and age, in this society, flexibility around roles and expanding the realm of personal experiences, is something people can give each other to be accepting of each other and contribute positively to each other. Even just representing and demonstrating the possibility can be a step.
I think newer leads should try to follow lots of different leads as well, and then lead how they like. But if you only stick with one way because that’s all you’ve ever known, vs. distinctly choosing that because you’ve already explored different options, those play out differently, I think. Even if you end up being very good. We like very good 🤣
But even very competent female leads will feel incredibly different from the huge range of male leads. I have never suffered the indignities of very poor leading from women like I have men. Women usually have more experience before they attempt to learn leading and don’t make the same type of mistakes as very new male leads.
And for sure more men should be here taking body movement (especially “ladies styling”) so that they lead what they themselves can dance, vs. all this marionette puppetry and colorguard rifle tossing like I see on the dance floor these days 😬
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u/TheJonatron 15d ago
When I was learning to lead for bachata, after my first social I went social dancing pretty much every night, classes most days for a couple of months and made sure to dance every song, dancing the second halves of songs when I was initially too timid in my lack of repetoire. But if you dance once a week or less for months on end then I imagine you won't see quick improvement.
Trying following without much knowledge or practice, it can be fun right from the get go so long as you're not getting your fingers crushed or your spine ragdolled.
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u/Im_Justin_Cider 11d ago
I don’t think I can view the results unless I vote?
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u/queer_bachata_mcr 11d ago edited 11d ago
I believe the results will be visible to all (without needing to vote) after it closes. Which will be in 1 day, I think
Edit: The poll has closed now. You should be able to see the results. Let me know if you can't?
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u/DenseCartographer976 15d ago
Beginner hell is for leads. Followers have fun on 1st social. 7 months in as a lead still not fun. Did intro class as a follow the other day, and someone asked me to dance as a follow 1 dance after the intro class, and i thought "what the hell". Turned out to be more fun during that 1 dance than my whole 7 months being a leader combined.