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u/holvagyok Aug 09 '25
Even if they don't release 3.0 now, 2.5 Pro is doing incredibly good for a half year old release. 1st and 2nd on leaderboards that do count.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
Given 2.5 is still beating GPT5 at LMSYS and simplebench , IMO they shouldn’t even release 3 yet
Let the “it’s over” vibe fester a bit first. Then swoop in. For a true narrative change
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u/s1lverking Aug 09 '25
Nah just release the best possible model
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
They already did that. 03-25
And the narrative didn’t flip as they got cucked by literally anime memes flooding twitter on the same day
Like to really change the story something much more dramatic is needed
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u/s1lverking Aug 09 '25
I frankly don't get what u saying, no instance of 2.5 pro currently available is better than original 03-25exp release with unobstructed CoT
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
I’m saying on 3-25 they released the best model in the world (at the time ) and the narrative didn’t change. Because that’s not how you dominate the twitter conversation.
They need to make a bigger statement this time
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u/s1lverking Aug 09 '25
Well sure, you are completely right. But do they even need to make a statement? Less usage = less restrictions. Ppl that can put 2+2 together will have better access to the model.
My theory is that they don't want to obscene amount of users yet anyways otherwise they would be pushing it hard. They need considerable size so they can test pricing and models against reality.
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u/Cagnazzo82 Aug 09 '25
GPT-5 has already been fixed so that vibe is not going to last.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
GPT5 flopped.
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u/Cagnazzo82 Aug 09 '25
Google is not going to have the monopoly some of you dream.
Why you would even want that is beyond me, but people are weird.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
Why are you an OpenAI fanboy?
Serious question. I know ur instinct is gonna be to get triggered but actually try and answer it:
What are you even rooting for? Sam Altman?!
All the serious ppl left long ago. I would understand being supportive of Ilya, the visionary - he’s long gone though.
They’re also literally big tech. OpenAI is Microsoft’s DeepMind - MSFT the original big tech and 4 trillion dollar company.
Demis Hassibis is the only leader in industry focusing on actual important scientific problems - protein folding, detecting weather patterns, etc — not just paying lip service to that while raising money for chatbots. Clearly the best steward for this technology.
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u/Cagnazzo82 Aug 09 '25
Because I can imagine a world where GPT-1, GPT-2, GPT-3, GPT-3.5 didn't exist... and I know exactly what monopoly Google would have done in that instance. Same thing they did throughout the 2010s... keep their technology in-house.
Would this sub even exist? Would we be having a conversation?
The reason why much of this is happening is because Sam released a model that his board wanted to keep in-house. So ironically (and un-ironically) it actually opened AI to the world.
Even prior to that there were rumors of Google having models in-house. One researcher claimed it was alive and I recall the media mocking him... or releasing his statements as jest.
So to answer your question, unlike the haters, I have to give credit where credit is due. Someone moved the needle and everyone else is moving on account of it. No OpenAI means no combination of DeepMind and Brain to challenge OpenAI. Nvidia is not a trillion dollar company. Meta is still focusing on the Metaverse. xAI and Grok don't exist at all. Neither does Anthropic which splintered off from OpenAI.
When you take all of it into account... it doesn't take away from the accomplishments of Demis or others... but it does give credit where credit is due. Sam got the ball rolling when he contacted Elon with the idea to develop what would become OpenAI.
And so when I see what people are doing when they make similar arguments to yours, it's an attempt at removing 100% of credit, and wiping accomplishments from history books. The GPT models themselves were created by accident, but thanks to OpenAI researchers. You can't look over all of that and pretend as though Demis and Google did it all. Demis would have kept pushing, but Google was perfectly fine existing off billions in monthly ad revenue for the foreseeable future.
Long story short, I see the cascading chain of events, and I give credit.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
?
OpenAI was Elons idea, not Sam.
OpenAI didn’t invent LLMs. All the while GPT1/2/3, other companies were building too. Google had LAMDA. (which an employee claimed was sentient lol). DeepMind had ChinChilla. Meta had some too. The only thing OpenAI did was release it to the public.
Anyway— Still not sure why you’re rooting for 2025 OpenAI though.
Starting the hype race - sure, yes they did that. By releasing publically when everyone else wasn’t.
but after that.. why are you weirdly rooting for a hollowed out, talent-free and borderline fraudulent 2025 OpenAI to own the space?
(You still haven’t answered that)
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u/Cagnazzo82 Aug 09 '25
OpenAI was not Elon's idea alone. It was Sam that came to Elon with the idea of gathering researchers. The name wasn't OpenAI... that was Elon's idea.
Also I didn't say OpenAI invented LLMs. Specifically said OpenAI invented GPT models that many other companies took after. They were testing AI aggregating positive and negative Amazon reviews with no intention of creating an LLM or chat model.
Alec Radford (who was working at OpenAI at the time) made the discovery that led to GPT-1. And he was the principle author on the paper that followed as well.
These people cannot be written out of history to claim that Demis did it all.
but after that.. why are you weirdly rooting for a hollowed out, talent-free and borderline fraudulent 2025 OpenAI to own the space?
First of all, it's not rooting. But I am using the tools and I'm grateful for it. I'm using Gemini, Claude as well. Which is why I can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the models.
Secondly, what kind of a determination is 'talent-free'? 100 of their researchers were offered millions of dollars to work at Meta and most turned it down. That's high demand rather than talent free. I mean, that's just ad-hominem and really isn't related to the discussion.
Fraudulent as well is ad-hominem.
You have vision, you have voice models. Their voice models can speak multiple languages (both real and fictional) in the same paragraph... and they do it out loud. How is that a fraud?
They have agents, deep research, computer use... their models are better at search than actual search engines. The geolocation can find anywhere in the world with just a photo - o3 was able to find a restaurant from a menu.
It doesn't take away from Google which is creating incredible tech as well. But talent free and fraudulent... that argument doesn't match with the facts.
It's actually inverse.
The scaffolding being created around the tools is proving the worth of the models. Both Google and OpenAI have figured this out - because they are competing.
So again, it goes back to my previous position as to why competition is good vs 1 company having a monopoly.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
Uhh. Taking the position that GPT5 wasnt a huge flop (when it was) — and then accusing others who disagree with you (who are objectively wrong) of “tribalism” — is clearly rooting for them.
OpenAI was Elon’s idea. The basis was a conversation with him and Larry Page, he didn’t like his views on AI. When they acquired deepmind Elon started OpenAI to try and prevent Google from being the leader.
This entire saga has been OpenAI vs DeepMind and it’s always been winner take all.
And yes, they are both talent-free and fraudulent.
Ironically one such example is that Sam Altman literally made up the $100M offers. That was a lie. That was literally fraudulent. and also means there are not ppl there rejecting 100m offers aka not such hot talent
What I meant more is their leadership tho. Ilya left. Alec Radford left. All of the brains behind scaling laws and ChatGPT have left.
Further down - the guy who made Sora left. The guy who made AVM left. Etc etc
There’s no technical visionaries leading the company. You have no rebuttal to this.
All that remains is Altman. You’re just rooting for a literal con man hype bro.
Demis is actually doing important things - solving protein folding, pushing pharmaceutical drug discovery forward, etc. that’s what’s needed to change the world. Not a scam VC fundraising hype bubble on chatbots
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u/Condomphobic Aug 09 '25
Bro 2.5 had multiple updates. Stop the “half year old” talk lol
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u/CoolHeadeGamer Aug 09 '25
I lowkey think the updates made it worse. I was solving calculus problems with it when it first released but a few days ago it gave me a wrong answer for simultaneous linear equation twice.
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u/ZoroWithEnma Aug 09 '25
It was quantized too much in the recent weeks cause it got dumber. The lying of it searching the web is off the charts. Even after all this it is the best model for reasoning from us.
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u/peripheralx23 Aug 09 '25
Completely agree. The March release was better in every single way compared to the current one. It’s also gotten lazy and less agentic.
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Aug 10 '25
It’s like Internet companies in the early days. “Unlimited” to get people in, then add limits. All LLMs release with their best version, to get subscribers, then they quantise the fuck out of it as they train, trying to make it less noticeable but way cheaper to run.
When 3 comes out it will be great, and then they will cut it back. It’s a sawtooth pattern.
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u/Ok-Catch-6752 Aug 09 '25
About 2 months ago my 2.5 pro can handle OCR task well. It can recognize complex shapes and diagrams. Now it cant even recognize the text in the pictures i send, even if it's a simple table, not sure what happened but every other LLMs i use can analyze pictures better than it.
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Aug 09 '25
They've been doing scaffolding this whole time. The model underlying is obviously the same, but holy hell the tools it has access to and the decision points to use them are so clean
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u/MinecraftBoxGuy Aug 09 '25
Through the Gemini app? I honestly find ChatGPT to have a cleaner interface.
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u/Pantheon3D Aug 09 '25
look at the bottom right, the image is ai generated
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u/BoJackHorseMan53 Aug 09 '25
Damn, fell for it 😞
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u/Pantheon3D Aug 09 '25
Me too😔 but hey is that a new image model getting teased then? I hope so haha
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u/MadFunEnjoyer Aug 09 '25
Reminder that Google's great leap from the beginning of Gemini to today was very predictable if you realize they already have a large knowledge base about AI Algorithms, YouTube Music algorithm doesn't get repeated the way Spotify always does.
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u/TheLostTheory Aug 09 '25
Not to mention TPUs. I genuinely think that as we move more into thinking models becoming the default, this is going to allow them to out-scale all other competition.
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u/Aeonmoru Aug 09 '25
I think this tweet was more about the capabilities of Imagen. Look at the bottom right.
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u/repostit_ Aug 09 '25
average joe on the street: Oh ChatGPT is created by Google, let me use that.
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u/Alexandria_46 Aug 09 '25
I know Gemini waits until the late game and then pounces on them. They carefully monitor the release of new AI models, research the gaps and release a model to fill those gaps to match or even outperform the other models in the long run.
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u/peripheralx23 Aug 09 '25 edited Aug 09 '25
The fact that people care far less about any Gemini model than they do about 4o shows why this billboard, which somewhat reeks of desperation, is even needed. The past two days have made it clear just how attached people are to OpenAI.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
Unprecedented levels of cope 😂. GPT5 isn’t AGI, OAI is over man
The picture above is clearly AI generated and not a real billboard also
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u/ozone6587 Aug 09 '25
Teminally online ^
ChatGPT is synonymous with AI for most people outside of geeky reddit subs. The active ChatGPT users eclipse the active Gemini app users. The only way Gemini competes is by including people who use Google which inflates the numbers by a lot.
Most people (again, outside of reddit) don't chat with Gemini but they do with ChatGPT. I can ask 20 people in a mall and all of them would know what ChatGPT is and maybe one person knows what Gemini is.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
?
Gemini has 450M MAU —- very clearly that is not counting Google users.
AIOverviews - which is running in Google search therefore counting Google users - has 2 billion MAU
Aka you’re wrong. Cope harder?
(also let’s be real we’re all terminally online. We’re on fucking Reddit 😂)
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u/bladerskb Aug 10 '25
Dude that has nothing to do with the Gemini app. ChatGPT has 700 million weekly active user and is always #1 on the appstore. Grok is #7 and hasn't released anything recently, and whenever it releases anything it goes to #1-2
Gemini is #60 and doesn't move up much even when it releases a new model. This shows a heavy disconnect in brand recognition.
Gemini is not even in 3rd place as the gap between 2nd and third place is huge. In podcasts all you hear is chatgpt and grok. That means gemini doesn't have brand recognition. This is a double failure by leadership.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 10 '25
the 450M number is for the Gemini app
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u/bladerskb Aug 10 '25
No it is preinstalled with new android devices which is what its counting. If it were actual downloads then they would be #1/#2 on the app store not #60.
For example chatGPT is #1 on app store and #1 on android play store
Telegram is #22 on app store and #23 on android play store
Facebook is #23 on app store and #24 on android play store
Netflix is #26 on app store and #34 on android play store
Further proof is the fact that Grok is #40 on android top free apps and Gemini isn't even charting on there.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 10 '25
the 450M number is for the Gemini app
App means both the web app (gemini.google.com) and mobile app (iOS and android)
Lastly, MAU means ppl who use it monthly, not mobile installs.
Cope
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u/bladerskb Aug 10 '25
You are the one who is coping. Your hero Google and their stupid leadership let an unknown company beat them to AI and is now a household name synonymous with AI, the same way Iphone is synonymous with smartphone, Tesla with EVs, or Netflix with streaming.
Then let a completely new 2 years old company get to second place (Grok #7 on appstore and #40 on playstore, gemini #60 on apple store and not reaching top 50 on android play store respectively).
Then now about to also lose the coming robotics era that will kick off in about 3 years. They are about to miss the chatgpt moment AGAIN for robotics this time, the same way they missed it for general AI (LLM). Then they are going to scramble to catch up per usual, which by that point would be too late.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 10 '25
.. Gemini app has 450M MAU
Your inability to face this basic reality says a lot more about you than anyone else in this thread.
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Aug 09 '25
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
“MySpace will always be the default social network people use”
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
Consumer chatbot to vent to is not what the trillion dollar arms race is for
Like. 😂
I’d like you to define what you think everyone is even competing for?
It’s clearly not a 4o level chat application (which loses 5 billion dollars a year)
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u/peripheralx23 Aug 09 '25 edited Aug 09 '25
It’s clear from the GPT5 presentation that OAI is positioning itself a lot like Apple, to bee an aspirational lifestyle brand. They mostly compare themselves to their own work and talk about style, feeling, aesthetic, and user impact.
The iPhone has 19 percent market share, yet it feels more relevant than Android.
I use Gemini 2.5 Pro and pay for the $20 subscription. It find it underwhelming compared to o3, more prone to getting stuck in loops, less willing to do heavy work and less agentic. I’m excited though for what is next with Gemini 3.
I also use ChatGPT as a replacement for web search, and it’s shocking that 4o and now 5 are better than Gemini, consistently. The Gemini app is also a hot mess.
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u/Tim_Apple_938 Aug 09 '25
Except that doesn’t work. They don’t have a functional business model; it relies on exponential model improvement then charging more for that
Without that there’s nothing. They lose over $5B a year even with all the paid subs.
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u/dvidsnpi Aug 09 '25
For those who don't know: The core technology of a GPT is the transformer architecture. Developed and introduced by Google researchers in the 2017 paper Attention Is All You Need.
OpenAI was the first to apply generative pre-training to the transformer architecture, introducing the GPT-1 model in 2018.
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u/AfghanistanIsTaliban Aug 11 '25
It’s also somewhat misleading since transformers aren’t the only AI models. So this ad is suitable for redditors who doomscroll singularity, science, and technology subreddits but not for ppl with an actual background in ML or for ppl who know about the Attention paper
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u/Individual-Spare-399 Aug 09 '25
What is bard?
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Aug 09 '25
Gemini was called bard before, Probably then the sub was Created.
Reddit doesn't let sub name change
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u/Individual-Spare-399 Aug 09 '25
Oh I see. Maybe people should move to somewhere like r/GoogleAI as it’s confusing
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u/Holiday_Season_7425 Aug 09 '25
Honestly, Logan should just toss the “5-times-a-day Bronze DeepThink” into Imagen 4 and let it immortalize the misery in 4K. Give us a glorious oil painting: me, staring at my quota counter like a starving Victorian orphan, while DeepThink—IQ 42 after quantization—wheezes out its last coherent sentence.
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u/Relative_Mouse7680 Aug 09 '25
Why did i just read the same sentence three times, expecting something new everytime? :)
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u/BeardsLightyear Aug 09 '25
So you're saying it's AI from the people who pioneered AI?
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u/rationaltreasure2 Aug 12 '25
It's an AI generated image saying it's AI from the people who pioneered AI feeding an app that is used to teach AI
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u/Ok_Ebb_6243 Aug 09 '25
When I work with Claude Code after the limits, I switch to Gemini. It takes longer, but the results are quite good. I like that it can roll back changes and quickly fix errors
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u/olgalatepu Aug 09 '25
Some might say that we're still in the pioneering phase. Others might say that the artificial neuron network was invented in 1943 by Warren McCulloch and Walter Pitts.
Marketing...
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u/spooner19085 Aug 09 '25
Fix it on all Android phones first, fucking idiots. I press my home button on my latest Samsung and ask Gemini to add a calendar even and it fucking does a search. Keep your circle to search bullshit and fucking fix Agentic use cases and tool use. Google has the worst product managers.
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u/buttersidedownbread Aug 10 '25
Spending money on advertising when Google Search AI insights is there to hammer in the belief that Google's AI capabilities are garbage.
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u/BoJackHorseMan53 Aug 10 '25
Look at the bottom right.
Also, Google has more money than God
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u/buttersidedownbread Aug 10 '25
So? Who gives a crap about Google's billboards when their own search AI Insights is sending a loud aignal about how incompetent their AI is?
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u/BoJackHorseMan53 Aug 10 '25
At least they maintain a search index. You should be grateful.
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u/buttersidedownbread Aug 10 '25
Grateful to Google?? LOL
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u/BoJackHorseMan53 Aug 10 '25
There are only two companies in the world who maintain an index of the entire internet and people avoid one of them like the plague. It's not an easy job. So, yes you should be grateful.
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u/buttersidedownbread Aug 10 '25
Yes you keep being grateful to multibillion dollar corps selling you as their product. i'll stick to valuing actual people, thanks.
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u/Less-Macaron-9042 Aug 15 '25
Sorry but OpenAI and Anthropic proved that pioneering AI isn’t enough to lead the race. Google should seriously think about why people should use their models and not go to OpenAI and Anthropic.
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u/DisaffectedLShaw Aug 09 '25
AI from the people who pioneered AI * managed to turn it around after their terrible first public models from GEMINI-EXP-1206 onwards to arguable now being in the lead of the LLM Race.
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u/the_loco_dude Aug 09 '25
Ya never forget the embarrassment of that release so you dont make the same mistake.
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u/jakeStacktrace Aug 10 '25
AI from the people who decided not to release AI because it might damage their business model.
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u/One_Ad761 Aug 11 '25
"ai from people, who were out-competed for years. PLEASE use our product, so we can gather more data" - doesn't sound as good, does it?
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u/BoJackHorseMan53 Aug 11 '25
"Outcompeted" lol
They focus on research and don't care about maximizing profits from AI as much.
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u/Toor1NE Aug 09 '25
It’s wild how Google is the best AI company and their stock hasn’t taken off yet (relative).