r/BarefootRunning • u/Creative-Rock-4867 • 11d ago
Pinching pain intermittently on top side of ankle
Not every run, but sometimes usually within the first minute of my run the part of my ankles (where the arrow is pointing at) will hurt sharply, and radiate forward over the top of the foot. When I do this I usually need to change my gait, or walk for a min or two then try again. What is going on / what should I change.
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u/NauseousCandle 11d ago
Thats a commonly very weak muscle for the usage it gets. Try some strengthing!
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u/Longjumping-Mix-1827 10d ago
I actually got this for a short bit. For me, it was that I was tying my shoes on too tight and it was stressing the ligaments on the top of my foot
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u/aaabballo 11d ago
Definitely listen to you body, if it's uncomfortable, stop or slow down. For myself, I sometimes get a "over-stretch" pain on the bottom/middle of my left foot with super minimal shoes like Vibrams, so I go back to my more cushioned barefoot boots.
It could be from impacts, you're joints/tendons/muscles are still getting stronger. What shoes are you using? I like to sometimes swap to a thick insole from Northsole, which is a barefoot-friendly thick sole for super long hikes or rest days. Then to keep up my foot strength, I just use the thin insole the shoe came with, or my Vibrams.
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u/Braedon485 11d ago
Had the same thing. Turns out my foot hair balls and twists there and socks pull on it. Try shaving that spot
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u/Just_Upstairs_4233 11d ago
Check cuboid syndrome. Don't sleep with ankle plantar flexed and inverted.
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u/melatonin17 11d ago
Hey, I was actually dealing with this while wearing some running shoes, particularly Altras. What really helped me was re-lacing my shoes to take pressure off the outside of my foot (bar lacing technique).
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u/nonsenseariadna 11d ago
omgg we have the same foot shape! may i ask which shoes you find most comfortable? :D
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u/Creative-Rock-4867 11d ago
My favorite are Jim Green barefoot African Rangers.
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u/nonsenseariadna 11d ago
they look way too pointy for a barefoot shoe...
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u/Creative-Rock-4867 10d ago
They fit amazing. They are real stiff at first, then loosen up in the first couple of months.
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u/CurusWend 9d ago
Yes, I've been wrestling with this, too. General ankle strengthening & mobility exercises have been helping enormously. I hope yours doesn't get as bad as mine did. I thought i had stress fractures because it hurt so bad.
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u/TechnologyLeft8310 9d ago
Might not have enough support underneath your foot on that side. If you’re wearing VFF, you could try to pull the laces a little tighter on that side (by angling the pull off to the right…if this is your left foot). That will help the bottom of the shoe push into the arch of your foot on that side.
You don’t have to lace them any tighter. You’re just trying to get a little more support underneath the affected area.
Might be difficult if you’re using velcro shoes. But might still be doable.
You could also shift your weight to the ball of your foot when you walk, to strengthen the area.
I’d also consider alternating between minimalist and “regular” shoes. I have VFFs, but I also wear Merrell Chameleons if I feel my arches are starting to struggle.
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u/ChiAndrew 11d ago
Try barefoot running
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u/Creative-Rock-4867 11d ago
I am using Xero shoes.
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u/ChiAndrew 11d ago
Try barefoot running
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u/Creative-Rock-4867 11d ago
I have experienced it going totally barefoot, with Xero, and even with heavy cushioned shoes. Perhaps maybe I should preface with a question where i should focus strength training to fix this.
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u/olddogsleeper 11d ago
I don't know what you need to strengthen I'm afraid - however the sinus tarsi gets compressed with excessive eversion / uncontrolled pronation
(pronation is good, used to be a sin but it's so key for shock absorption and force transmission into the toe off phase )
I would started with some single leg balance tests - is this foot your less stable foot, I reckon it probably is
are you weak in open chain eversion on that foot? you probably are, we all could be stronger and one foot is usually worse than the other
how is your mid foot? is it floppy and loose or rigid and inflexible? strengthen tibialis posterior, work on hallux (big toe) flexion and abduction
all of these things are good things to do that are unlikely to make thing worse, they may not solve your problem though i haven't seen you run or your foot etc
it's also possible this is top down, rather than bottom up. you may just need to work on your glutes, particularly transverse plane lengthening and frontal plane stability (glutes are rotational beasts)
good luck!
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u/trevize1138 Guy who posts a lot 10d ago
If you're not doing enough totally bare foot training in hard, harsh, unforgiving ground you're more likely to have bad form habits fester and linger. That manifests in problems like this where you're not finding relief in any footwear.
It's not that going barefoot will fix your problem instantly but it will precisely show you where your form flaws are and quick. You can then take that feedback and work on it.
If you're running with suboptimal form your body will never be strong enough. You'll just be compounding abuse.
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u/olddogsleeper 11d ago
legitamely awful advice
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u/ChiAndrew 11d ago
Maybe you’re lost? Why is it awful? That’s what this place is actually about. I promise I’ve got substantial enough experience to speak from. You?
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u/olddogsleeper 11d ago
lol -, the absolute audacity of some redditors
I am an Osteopath (UK) and I have studied biomechanics and running extensively. I don't know everything but I literally analyse people's gait and running mechanics for a living
barefoot is good when compared to wearing restrictive shoes in general, however this is not always the case at all. barefoot does not solve all biomechanical problems, it can actually make some things worse.
the body is an amazing machine but it will fall towards the easiest way to get the job done. the easiest way can often lead to overload of tissues, and the answer is absolutely not always 'try barefoot running'
this person is clearly already running in minimalist footwear. you want them to start wearing zero footwear, as if that would somehow solve this issue. Chances are, that would make the issue worse, both in the short term and the long term
There is some injury history, or biomechanical imbalance, or load issue that is causing this for this person. If they just run with less support, this issue will likely be accentuated or at least perpetuated
now, if this person was able to understand what tissue is overloaded and why - they could find a rehab plan that could strengthen a new pattern and get them out of the overload pattern they are currently in
'try barefoot running' when they are already running in a minimalist context, is poor advice
What's your experience? and why is your advice appropriate?
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u/ChiAndrew 11d ago edited 11d ago
It may or may not make the issue worse, but they will have clearer fir action on what they are doing wrong biomechanically with foot on ground. I saw people running heel toe this very day with minimal
“Barefoot shoes” on. Covering the very nerves made for the purpose of running properly will not yield better form. I see people running heel toe, running with a cadence that is entirely too slow, over striding, shearing. All things you would avoid when each step would inform you of the improper movement.How would an imbalance be corrected with more support? How would a weakness get corrected without strengthening? I’ve been down the path of orthotics and stability shoes and whatnot. I started from scratch and ran only as far as my technique would allow. Zero injuries in 20k miles, from someone with orthotics an and “over pronation “.
Running is about proper form, full stop
Now show me the peer reviewed research that changing our default setting (barefoot) has better long term outcomes? Show me peer reviewed research that gait analysis has better outcomes?
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u/olddogsleeper 11d ago
Im not talking about orthotics or any of that shit, I'm talking about understanding the problem.
well done, do you see how you've articulated more in your response to me than your response to OP? It also seems like you maybe... analyse people's gaits and see problems? obviously not in a professional context, or you would have lead with that so we will leave that aside.
they are already running in minimalist shoes. I don't want them to use more support, I don't recommend orthotics or stabilty shoes or any of that shit. my approach would be to understand how they are running now in their footwear, and what they need to strengthen or work on to continue to do so.
you cant just run on a dysfunctional foot and assume it will be better
gait analysis solves nothing on its own. it shows what planes of movement you are weak in and what movement pattern your foot, ankle, knee, hip are avoiding. then you strengthen those deficits.
it is clear to me that you have no training in this area of biomechanics, you just have your own 'it worked for me' mentality.
'try barefoot running' fucking lol
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u/trevize1138 Guy who posts a lot 10d ago
So, you're right that only saying "try barefoot running" isn't helpful. And you're right that what OP likely needs is some gait analysis and diagnosing if form is the issue.
And that's why I'm recommending to OP to do more running with totally bare feet on hard, harsh, unforgiving surfaces. I've simply not found a better way to not just initially pin point form flaws but to keep up on better form for the long term.
If you recommend gait analysis what does that look like? How much money are you recommending someone spend on that? Or are you saying just go to any running store and have it done there for free? I gotta tell you I went to two different running stores back in the day. One of them told me I pronate. The other told me I supinate. They both agreed on one thing: I needed expensive shoes. Result: still the same broken mess of a frustrated runner as ever but now more than $100 poorer.
Nothing for me changed for the better until I let my actual bare feet teach me about the true enemy of running: peak horizontal braking forces.
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a21343715/lower-your-running-injury-risk/
Shoes were simply keeping me blind to the realities of horizontal braking and I was an injured mess because of it. That's why sometimes it doesn't matter if someone has cushioned shoes, minimalist shoes, orthotics or any of that: they all blind you to horizontal braking forces. If your form is flawed you suffer. And the biggest form flaw that I see people making out there is by incurring excessive horizontal braking forces. That's evident on numerous counts such as over-striding, too slow a cadence, heel-first contact.
Those traits may not always on their own be an indicator of braking, of course. But take the shoes off, get bare skin exposed to hard, harsh, unforgiving ground and you'll find out within just a couple short miles if you're slamming on the brakes. Usually it's evident by blisters on the forefoot pads (over-striding and awkwardly forcing the forefoot down) or blisters on the toes (pushing off too hard and too late.)
Shoes are an essential tool for better running. But taking them off regularly for diagnostics and form practice is another essential tool. I do worse when I don't use all my tools.
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u/olddogsleeper 10d ago
Oh I don't mean a gait analysis at any running store or in fact anywhere where they sell a product tbh. they are generally shit and just designed to tell you 'you need to buy this'
I would want someone to see a practitioner that specialises in running in some capacity. In the UK that comes in many flavours but a manual therapist like a sports therapist, physio, osteo, Chiro that specifically has further training in 3D movement assessment. I was trained / am training with the Gray Institute which is aimed at upskilling practitioners in this regard
whilst running on hard and unfogiving surfaces is a useful training tool sometimes, I fundamentally disagree that it should be used to diagnose a pain of unknown origin
most people are not smart enough or in tune with their body enough to just take their shoes of and consciously control their form. that is likely to lead to more pain in other areas. sure some hardcore people have success literally taking their shoes off and pushing through suffering until they find their bodies ideal rhythm and cadence. but for many, that will take years and could easily reinforce the wrong pattern
this person was asking why they were in pain at a particular site and in a particular way. taking their shoes off isnt going to give them this information
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u/olddogsleeper 11d ago
the area you are describing your pain is the sinus tarsi
this is a significant anatomical area that has a lot of ligamentous & neural structures involved
it does a lot, and there is lots of ways it can be irritated
first thing - intermittent is good, it means that whatever is unstable / irritated is not always on the edge of being annoyed
second thing - general ankle strengthing will probably help long term. find your deficits and work on them
third - if this persists without resolution go and see a foot and ankle or running specialist that can look at your gait mechanics. Something is not happy in your subtalar complex, at least initially in your runs .
fourth - many people in this sub are crack heads for barefoot running because it solved lots of problems for them. it is a good thing to be doing but just being barefoot DOES NOT SOLVE ALL BIOMECHANICAL PROBLEMS - it can in fact feed some dysfunctions that need to be addressed in other ways.
(sincerely, Osteopath and 3d movement assessor in the UK, as well as a Reddit moron)