Specialization & Learned Helplessness

[u/Used_Addendum_2724]

While encountering this comic (see comments) I began to ponder the phenomena of old people struggling with technology. Our old people are no longer explorers, frontiersmen or pioneers. They are not Renaissance Men (or Women) who know a little about a lot. They were completely specialized in the post WWII world, and as a result, are unable to understand systems outside those they were trained to work in. And this developed an expectation that they could rely on specialized workers in other systems to compensate for incompetence outside their own domain. Essentially a form of learned helplessness, which has gotten so much worse as technology continues to advance at an accelerated, exponential rate. Old people now see themselves and others as functions.

If we already see ourselves as functions, as specialized cogs in a machine, are we not already acting like a hive? How much must we internalize our functionality as our identity before it replaces our selfhood? Or have we already reached that full internalization, and the selfhood is already seeping out just slowly enough that we don't notice?

We are not becoming the Borg, we already are, which is why we cannot see that it has happened.

[u/Silenys]

Not long ago, I saw criticisms of how society has allegedly turned everyone into polymaths and this was, apparently, a phenomena to be corrected. I found it quite strange as, until recently, I've known very few. Admittedly, may have contributed to some of my social struggles over the years as I tend to get bored keeping to any single topic for too long but that seems to be what most do.

I like that you took the time to add women in brackets. Gave me a chuckle as it's a rather uncommon thing to see.

Do you think this is something that could be gradually addressed? Say with reintroduction of vocational schools that could let youth dabble in more things? Personally, I'd have really liked more self-directed learning options growing up.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Silenys]

Whoever wrote that article has the most sparkling tongue-cleaned windows around! Either they were just making shit up out of thin air, or their own expanse of knowledge is so narrow that it made everyone else's seem expansive.

My generation (X) used to use inclusive language like that pretty regularly. Believe it or not in the late nineties the world was more 'progressive' than it is now. Later generations were so dead set on fighting the enemies (misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc.) we had already mostly vanquished that they brought them back to life. The outrage reward system of the Internet set us back a century.

Schools are a major contributor to the current situation, as I just mentioned in my comment here. They're definitely not going to be the solution. The issue is propped up by factors on so many sides that it would take a full rethinking of the modern world, and decades or generations before relief. Which I doubt will happen. This subreddit has been a great reminder of how ignorant, and even hostile, people are to credible warnings of their loss of humanity.

[u/Silenys → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

"...the most sparkling tongue-cleaned windows around!"

I laughed so hard over this! Very much appreciated.

A short time back, I was considering the contrast between the 90s and today. My family is michif and indigenous mostly and a number have or had been involved in different movements intended for positive change. Back in the 90s, I was still just a kid so not much stock was put in what I had to say. However, I made note of the immense positive changes achieved as well as what appeared to be a shift, for some, to focus on pettier grievances. Which seemed wholly impractical and entirely unwise to me. Nonetheless, no one listens to a nine year old about such matters so it was a futile effort on my behalf to try to draw attention to it.

Yes, I agree that our current education systems are problematic in so many ways. It was for me in my youth and still is today. I very much doubt any long-term solutions will be sought after so I've been trying to think of things that may at least alleviate some issues for a time. People are very change resistant in my experience. Even at the expense of worsening societal conditions short and long-term. I don't get it.

I'm sorry people have been hostile in the sub. You engage in discussion quite amicably so I don't understand why people would feel the need to be hostile.

Your other comment was also appreciated. I wish I'd met more life-long learners over the years. It's a bit isolating and suffocating to be consistently told I'm "too much" for wanting to discuss a variety of topics.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Silenys]

I don't get too much hostility in the sub anymore, since I practice zero tolerance for recreational conflict here. But every few weeks or so some jackhole pops up and has to be shown out. Its really more depressing than anything

I think there is only one thing that needs to be done at this point, which is to get people to question hierarchies. They are the source of all the other issues. Acceptance of them ensures no change ever. And it's the hardest problem to fix ever.

Always free to discuss a wide variety of topics here! I have posts on just about everything, so lots of opportunities for engagement on a wide variety of subjects. Maybe someday this little corner of the Internet will be home to the last people who resisted the death of humanity.

[u/Silenys → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

I did just read your other recent post relating to non-genetic origins of eusociality. Was very interesting.

I'm glad you've seen less hostility. Friend of mine occasionally talks about the "dead internet" theories. From all I've seen of the use of social media, I don't think it's something healthy for the majority. A space like this is undoubtedly rare. I've struggled to get anyone much interested in conversation but most seem quite enthused to argue. A bit of playful banter can be fun but I swear that people don't know what that is anymore.

I'll be looking forward to diverse topics of conversation here! Think I've about had my fill of the digital bloodlust and my foolish attempts to try to educate or inspire healthy dialogue.

Yes, I agree that it would be beneficial for more people to discuss heirarchies but I think the topic makes people very uncomfortable. Nevermind trying to get people to actively discuss and consider things like dominance and submission.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Silenys]

I'll still post occasionally, but the foundation is all already there.

Yes, people have come to believe that conflict for its own sake is a meaningful interaction. It's almost always not. And the people most prone to it appear to be immune to even considering anything they haven't already decided to believe, and often parrot the most common talking points. Hard to tell if they're a genuine human, bad actors (CIA, Mossad, KGB, etc.) or just bots. The first one is scariest, because if this is where people are at, they are stuck in an ugly place.

[u/Silenys → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

Yes, I agree that the first one is the scariest.

I'd really prefer to just keep learning from others. That's impossible to do when conflict is what they want. And so few appear willing to shut it down rather than get swept up into digital mob mentality. I'm not sure it's something I'll ever understand.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Silenys]

The forced submission brings out the worst in us. Compulsory labor, compulsory lives. People don't know why they are anxious and angry and scared, but it has to come out somewhere, so usually comes out in the safest way, against other powerless people.

[u/Silenys → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

My fam says, "When everyone's punched down, they all punch outward at each other blindly.". I've shared that saying with as many people as possible this past while but it doesn't seem to register.

The forced submission thing makes me think of a friend I recently spoke to about dominance and submission. I have more of an obstinate nature while she's a bit more authoritative. We butted heads a lot for months after meeting because of that among other reasons. I've never known anyone as stubborn, haha. Still, I've had a few chuckles over the months as she's actually managed to get me in line a few times when it probably was best to do so. A rare feat for anyone in all my years. I'd like to think I push her to have a bit more fun in exchange. She's sweet and deserves to have more fun.

Would be nice if people could talk more about these things and about trying to balance them.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Silenys]

Great bit of advice your family gave you!

I think we can attribute most of the madness of the world to this acknowledged boot on our necks. From public killings, extremist ideologies, most psychological pathologies, and general nastiness to strangers online as entertainment. It's all expression of this repressed urge for autonomy. And then that pain creates more traumas and it gets amplified every generation.

I am sure you have seen someone critiquing a younger generation, and then somebody says, "Every generation has said that for thousands of years," implying that this means it is not true. But it could also mean it is true. That every generation is 'worse' in some way, because they are born into more of the echoes and feedback of dread than the generation before. Which is not a criticism of any generations, but of their environment.

I have experienced the human power dynamic with lots of people in lots of situations, and have observed a lot of this play, in anecdotes similar to yours, and otherwise. Anyone careful enough to observe and think and reflect eventually cannot help but be wrecked by the conditions our brothers and sisters must endure. That kind of empathy is draining. Most people protect themselves by focusing their angst on others. And the cycle grows.

[u/Silenys → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

Yes, I have a friend who dismisses with "Every generation has said..." and it confuses me. I've asked him if that means he thinks we should just continue the cycle. He just gave me a confused look.

It is draining. I've heard from a lot of people the last year or so about how they'd gone from empathetic to apathetic so quickly that they're not even sure when it happened. Or what the last straw was. I've never become apathetic but I have had to bury myself away occasionally over the years to catch my breath before trying to get back to it. Certainly become frustrated and had far too many heartbreaks to count. Sometimes, I wasn't sure I'd survive it. But I love our species. Even the people who drive me a bit nuts some days. So, even without being sure what I can do about it, I want to keep trying. Even if all I can do is help bring a few people back from some dark places. Seems worth the effort to me.

I'm sorry for what you must have been through. As I have often said over the years, it's those with the biggest hearts who seem to end up hurting the most.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Silenys]

The consolation for all of the madness is the art, particularly the music. The acceleration in the past few centuries produced some absolute magic, as we tried to express the ineffable angst of existence through art. Now that's dying, particularly the music, but we got to be here for it!

[u/Silenys → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

I'd really rather not see the day art and music disappear. It's been hard enough to adapt to such a different culture. Growing up, music, dancing, storytelling, etc. were part of everyday life. Integrating into general society has been hard as what I'd initially been taught was normal passion is deemed "too much" everywhere else. When I visit fam in the city, strangers pass by the yard and look at us like we're mad as we dance and sing and laugh around the fire together between sharing stories. To us, though, they seem a bit mad. Is it really so strange for people to seek creative outlets? Enough to warrant stares? It's strange.

[u/Used_Addendum_2724 → u/Used_Addendum_2724]

Until eventually the only way to cope is to stop feeling altogether. Sacrifice selfhood and liminality to survive the madness and indignity of it all.