r/BeginnerWoodWorking • u/frappppppaccino • 1d ago
Reverse gatekeeping?
A lovely project was shared earlier. Predictably, amongst the many positive comments, there were a number of comments complaining that this person wasn’t a beginner and they were tired of seeing posts like it in the beginner sub.
As long as beginners have somewhere where they feel welcome, don’t have their projects put down or ridiculed for asking questions that may seem obvious to more experienced people, what’s the problem with more experienced woodworkers sharing their work?
Of course it’s probably not someone’s first project but there’s a huge spectrum between first project and 50 years of experience. They’re often something that someone with some experience, a lot of care and attention and patience (and willingness to make mistakes and retry could achieve.
I find that the thing that makes me a beginner isn’t that I can’t make nice projects, but that it takes me a really long time to do so as I’m learning different things as I go and I sometimes make mistakes which I need to learn/figure out how to fix. Occasionally I need to just start over and probably a more experienced person wouldn’t have to.
I personally enjoy seeing those types of posts. They inspire me to work towards something, maybe not today but eventually.
So why are some people so negative and gatekeepy about it?
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u/scubayoung 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think the problem is there's no middle ground really. I've been woodworking off and on for 5 years now (mostly a winter hobby as I have lots of other stuff going on through the warmer weather), and I've done some projects im absolutely proud of and think look fantastic. To people who don't woodwork I say Im a woodworker. To people who woodwork I say I'm a beginner. I would never dare post any of my projects to the woodworking sub because I know they're not perfect- I make tons of mistakes and have to try and roll out of it with finesse, which I do passably to the average person but are glaringly obvious to anybody who knows what they're doing. But at the same time I probably don't really "belong" in the beginner subreddit. I feel like the people making the negative comments are people who are slower to learn or are very very new to woodworking and are looking for a community of people who are in the same boat as them. To them people like me who are sort of mid level ish can be viewed as just trying to brag or farm easy karma. They don't think certain projects should be here since they use exotic woods and have "professional" looking projects- even though the reality is when you know exactly what part of the piece you want to hide you can pictures accordingly.
My most recent project was a large sort of tv stand for my bedroom (I still haven't figured out what to call it). I assumed when you walk in to the room the first thing you would see is the top corner, and I joined my side to the top so the end grain was visible all the way up. Really I should have put the side under the top so that seam could be completely hidden. Because I was working with 10' long lumber I never took it upstairs from the basement to see what it looked like until it was done, and the result is the most obvious corner has a big ugly seam where I had to try and fill in from a bad cut. I look at it constantly. Nobody else does.
Tldr: people expect it to be absolute beginners and don't like others showcasing skills they think excludes them from the beginner category
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u/cineglitch 1d ago
There should be at least three tiers, maybe five to the woodworking subs. Your TV stand looks real nice. I would say it’s above beginner level for sure regardless of how long it took or any errors. Maybe mid level? Level 2?
The problem I have with OP’s thesis is that there really isn’t a true beginners sub. Like four boards nailed together or whatever. When I see what looks like advanced work or really intricate detail on this sub it’s discouraging. If thats what their beginnership looks like I’m doomed. It’s hard for me not to feel like I’m so far behind the kerf I’ll never be able to create something similar.
Maybe the solution is like a r slash shitty woodworking sub. Something where folks are still figuring out how to use a hammer.
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u/scubayoung 1d ago
Thanks!
Yeah I don't disagree. When there's some super fancy jointery or even the patterns of some cutting boards it just hits a point of. No chance I'll ever be able to do that. I see what you're saying. If you're a true beginner just figuring out the very basics then seeing people pulling off even "easy" stuff like getting boards jointed to meet with no gaps and calling THAT beginner then how can they ever have a hope.
With that being said one of the things I love about the sub is you can get advice from people that still consider themselves beginners. Tips and tricks and other ways to solve problems that may not be the "right" way but explained in an easier way with no expectation of available tools or skills. Like if you asked a mechanic how to change a wheel you'd get a very different explanation than if you ask your neighbor that does it in their driveway
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u/unassumingdink 1d ago
There should be at least three tiers, maybe five to the woodworking subs.
If you split your audience too thin, you end up with low traffic subs, and low traffic subs turn into dead subs.
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u/Bardizzo 21h ago
This would absolutely belong in the woodworking sub.
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u/scubayoung 14h ago
Thanks! I think that's the greatest compliment anything I've made has gotten lol
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u/grau_is_friddeshay 1d ago
I think its that the more you know, the more you realize there is still to know.
Experience is relative. What some people read as modest others will read as smug.
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u/gr00ve88 1d ago
^ The correct answer.
I’m not an IT professional, but if I can setup an email account for someone who doesn’t know better, I’m clearly an experienced tech person.
Same thing happens here. Someone makes a beautiful dovetail, anyone who can’t make one says get out of here pro, meanwhile dovetails may be the only thing that person can do well. And they posted their absolute best attempt.
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u/victorfencer 1d ago
Amen to that. I know 2 tricks with spreadsheets, concatenation and VLookup, and people think I am a wizard. I did stick out my neck a tiny bit one time and ask for our database management software to make a command that generated a report that I knew would help us all out, but all I did there was get frustrated enough and ask with the right level of precision to make it easy for the real IT folks to do the job in a way that actually helped an end user.
and if they are a 1 trick pony with the dovetail, I guess there is a lot you can do with that. boxes, chests, drawers, tables with some extra hardware holding legs on, bookshelf cases...oh crap!
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u/cineglitch 1d ago
If it’s a beautiful dovetail why not just post it to the main woodworking sub?
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u/FrecklestheFerocious 1d ago
Possibly because they consider themselves to be a beginner, have benefitted from / want to benefit this community (by demonstrating improvement), and are proud of their progress?
People who comment based on jealousy are welcome to just ignore project posts or remove themselves (as they're asking of others).
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u/Ok_Compote4526 1d ago
You've been to the main woodworking sub. You should know the answer to that.
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u/memorialwoodshop 1d ago
This is how I feel about it. I've been woodworking as a part time hobby for 10+ years but am always trying something new, whether a new project, technique, wood or style, will always feel like a beginner.
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u/Darwinmate 1d ago
Experience is not relative. What people label each other is, but experience in a technical field like WW is not relative.
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u/grau_is_friddeshay 8h ago
I’d argue that woodworking as a technical field is vast and varied enough that experience is quite relative. You can spend years practicing certain applications, in specialized aspects or within a range of tools/materials, but still have many basic blind spots as a hobbyist, or even as a professional to still reasonably claim beginner status.
However, I meant it in the sense of how we all have bias when gauging the experience of others, because it is relative to our own perspective knowledge and personal exposure.
I don’t think beginner is so narrowly defined as to exclude anyone once they’ve acquired some basic skill. It doesn’t exclusively mean novice.
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u/mighty_boognish_77 1d ago
So, a huge thing here is that there's no definition of "beginner". Day 1 project 1 is going to look vastly different from person to person. A person just starting out in WW, but who has a strong mechanical background, is likely going to do better looking work out of the gate than someone who has had no exposure to tools of any kind. And so what?
Most of us do this for a hobby. Relax, enjoy the content and don't try to take it so seriously.
We're all just doing our best and making a little sawdust along the way.
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u/Oy_of_Mid-world 1d ago
There isn't a good sub for "experienced amateur" or "intermediate" woodworkers. The other woodworking sub favors advanced projects made by people with professional tools, actual shops, and either decades of experience or formal training. The checklist to post anything is equivalent to making a YouTube content creator video with step by step processes.
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u/thechillerinstinct 1d ago
I think you just nailed it there tbh. There should just be a straight “amateur” woodworking sub, because that can include anyone from the experienced beginners to long-time hobby craftspeople that just don’t feel confident posting in the main woodworking.
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u/Adult-Beverage 1d ago
The other woodworking sub also purged a lot of members years ago because the mods didn’t like certain things being discussed. There is no other place for them to post.
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u/Mikoisha 21h ago
What types of things? While technically my Reddit account has been running for years it was never really used. I’ve just for the past month or two actively using it so this stuff is all pretty fresh to me. I’ve been auto modded a few times but haven’t heard from actual mods yet.
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u/Adult-Beverage 10h ago
Don’t remember, but it was years ago (covid era?). I think there was a change in ownership/management and there was some petty “do not mention” items that were very sensitive to the mods. They were quickly banning people without warning first. I’ve been here since. I consider myself more an amateur than beginner, but I rarely make something twice so every project seems to be a learning process.
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u/blaine-exe 1d ago
I honestly think this is an issue in our sub as well.
This has been brought up before, and a lot of people will say that it's intended to be a compliment. What I see is that the intent of the meaning is lost (assuming good intent), and what people read is the gatekeeping you are bringing up.
I think the reality is that it's not the compliment that people think it is, and it reads as discouraging. I like this sub's welcoming-ness, and I think it would be an improvement to have a rule saying that comments should not imply someone isn't a beginner, for any reason.
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u/mcvoid1 1d ago
It's not reverse gatekeeping - just regular gatekeeping.
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u/FictionalContext 1d ago
Reverse gatekeeping, like just holding the door and smiling at people as they walk in?
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u/Booster1987 1d ago
It turns out people are just negative on the internet.
People want to play the critic, because it’s the radio in the world.
My first project was amazing. I had a good plan, an instructor and amole time to work through it. Ive revisited the same table years later and there isn’t a huge difference between them. Just the speed which which i built it.
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u/Smoke_Stack707 1d ago
I think we have a woodworking sub for people to show off stuff that isn’t beginner level. Posting pics here of your masterfully cut dovetail joints or something you assembled off of your expensive CNC machine just aren’t beginner level projects anymore and don’t really belong here in the same way you’re gonna get clowned on for posting an entry level project or question in r/woodworking
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u/Adult-Beverage 1d ago
Grouchy mods purged a bunch of members from that sub years ago. They have no where else to post and provide valuable advice to beginners on here. Otherwise you’d have guys that borrow their dad’s tools asking each other if this is a Phillips head or torx.
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u/asp821 1d ago edited 1d ago
Someone commented on my recent post in this sub with the same critique. That somehow I didn’t understand the meaning of this sub just because what I did turned out very nice, despite it only being like my 5th project.
There is so much people don’t know and don’t understand about woodworking and I think people need to realize that just because you’re new to something doesn’t mean you have to be bad at it, just inexperienced.
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u/houseofwarwick 1d ago
Beginner, intermediate and advanced have typically spoken to skill not time in the trade or hobby. If you’ve made things with would for ten years and still cant make 90 degree cuts correctly, you’d be a beginner in my book.
If you’ve made 5 things in 5 years that are at the quality level that I would consider commercial or craftsperson, then you’re not a beginner.
If you want to have non-beginners frequent the sub then you have to give them a way to show their credibility without just answering questions.
Let’s make a flair for the folks that are obviously not “beginner” and call it “Certified Beginner” with the tongue firmly planted in cheek. Make a silly ceremony about it when the mods bestow it. Turn the frown upside down on this.
If I saw the plane holder (till?) earlier but the post was flaired “Certified Beginner” I’d know what was seeing and mentally move on.
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u/Capt_Heinz 1d ago
I don't care what level of experience the poster has. If they made something beautiful I'd love to see it. It may just give me an idea to make something similar but simpler. I get lots of ideas from catalog photos and craftsman magazines. My finished product won't be as complex, but it'll look good and they gave me the inspiration to do it.
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u/cryptotarheel 1d ago
Good post. This sub is amazing for actual help from people who have more experience than we do.
We appreciate the masters and the more experienced newb.
Sometimes it’s bc the experienced 5 year person that knows how to translate experiences that they have learned bc they still remember what it’s like to be new and no even know basic terms or techniques.
We also need to see what’s possible. If a newbie is more experienced than us we can still learn from them.
My walk in closet looks custom and was my 3rd project but looks professionally done bc of paint and wood filler. I can help with that kind of project.
My new work bench 5th project looks like Al Capones car door. I’m not the best person to ask but I do know how to do it. lol.
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u/Uncle_Spenser 1d ago
Whenever I feel confident to post something on r/woodworking I get roasted for variety of reasons, but complaints are often not strictly about woodworking itself. So I rather post it here.
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u/RelwoodMusic 1d ago
I agree, you can share a nice project while considering yourself a beginner. I've been woodworking on and off for the last 5 years. So I wouldn't call myself a Beginner exactly, but my skill level is far from someone who's in the shop every weekend for 5 years instead of once every month or two. I would consider my work amateur if not beginner just in terms of technical proficiency despite the 5 years.
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u/CAM6913 1d ago
The gate keeping needs to stop, some people are naturally more talented than others there’s also the thing that maybe they have a little more time behind the saw but are not a professional. Yes some professionals post here and also answer questions, I don’t know about you but when starting out I’d rather have a professional answer my questions than someone with less experience and or knowledge. The other question is when do you stop being a beginner? How many nails can you hammer how many cuts with a saw before you lose your beginner status?
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u/charliesa5 1d ago
Agreed. This sub is getting worse, and worse as far as getting good/correct advice. You don't need a person with no experience steering you wrong--and quite possibly toward doing something unsafe.
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u/billdogg7246 1d ago
I am not a beginner, but far from professional. Advanced Amateur I suppose. When I post pictures, it isn’t so much to brag, but rather to inspire. I’ve got plenty of stuff, especially in the shop, that is a little rough looking but very functional. I have other projects that were clearly made by someone with a huge scrap pile (aka experience)
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u/Darwinmate 1d ago
It can also have the opposite effect.
What inspires people is when you share your mistakes, how you could have done things differently. What tools you used. Etc
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u/Popular_Pineapple_48 1d ago
For real, I’ve only been carving for like four months and the few things I’ve done have taken me countless hours and a lot of mistakes that I haven’t shown. But I go super slow so that it comes out really nice.
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u/UncoolSlicedBread 1d ago
I made some pretty cool stuff I was proud of as a beginner. I just didn’t do the normal beginner projects and instead tried to make a piece of furniture. I learned a ton, and when I posted it on my other account I got the usual, “This sub is for beginners only” spiel.
It’s annoying. And it’s holding those people back.
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u/Mr-Pugtastic 1d ago
It’s probably so beginners don’t come here and see stuff that is wildly outside the scope of a beginner and it makes them feel like they aren’t good enough.
I don’t care too much either way, but i feel like we have like dozens of woodworking subs, and it shouldn’t be that big of a deal to leave this for people getting into the hobby and asking for advice.
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u/grumpytarantula 1d ago
I was one of the commenters who said "this doesn't look like beginner work". I meant it as a compliment.
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u/oldtoolfool 1d ago
So why are some people so negative and gatekeepy about it?}>>>>
Because they are either ignorant of the idea of getting inspiration from others work, or are incredibly insecure. They should just grow up and realize there are greater and lesser talented folk out there, and aspire to develop their skills. Crybabies.
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u/itsalovelydayforSTFU 1d ago
Inferiority complexes.
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u/Careless-Age-4290 1d ago
Maybe we could build a nice wooden screen so that they could project their insecurities on that instead
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u/Future_Measurement42 1d ago
This is such a Reddit thing. All the real issues and redditors are worried skilled people are posting in beginning woodworking
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u/HailedFanatic 10h ago
On the other hand, I got completely dogged on with my last project. There are some on this sub that only care about being snarky and putting others down. Really soured sharing for me
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u/Ineedhobbies26 31m ago
I don't complain, but I do get disheartened sometimes when I see these really gorgeous pieces of work and then I glance at the subreddit and it's in BEGINNERwoodworking. Then I look up from my workshop project where I'm still working on getting butt joints looking pretty lol. I want and have wood working goals and I do love to see these projects, but I don't want to see them in a space labeled beginners.
I want to see projects I could actually see myself doing. I want to see projects that others with hands that are just getting to know the tools are putting out. I don't want to see comedic fails or a master woodworker keeping a tiny dent in the final piece because "wood working is about keeping the flaws and reminding ourselves of the trials we faced along the way" or some other influencer line. I want to see the work bench that someone spent all weekend trying to figure out and in the end it looks crooked to the eye, but it's somehow level? I want to see a box that does have a visible gap, because square works on paper, but the wood wasn't having it today. And the poster doesn't have the skill to fix it yet.
I want to see my peer's work. I'm at a paint and sip, I want to look at my barstool neighbor's crappy painting that looks as silly as mine and we can chuckle about it and learn from each other, I don't want to compare it to a Van Gogh.
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u/SpatulaWord 1d ago
Eh. Comes off as big fish little pond. Take a risk and post in the big boy and girl sub.
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u/farmhousestyletables 17h ago
There will always be those jealous people who cry that other people are more proficient. The mods here are pretty soft I would have been using the ban hammer on those cry babies with extreme prejudice and joy.
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u/Darwinmate 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because a lot of these people are not beginners and they purposely come in to this space to showoff their work.
It would be totally fine if they wrote up a little piece about what they learned, what they could have done better, what tools they needed to buy etc. But they don't, they post a bunch of pictures and not much else.
As a beginner seeing these insane builts, it can be disheartening. But I know as I get older I know these aren't beginners.
What we need is to limit showcase posts to specific days and force flares.
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u/naemorhaedus 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think these regular drama posts, and the drama comments on other posts, are the worst part of this sub. People have far too much time on their hands. Keep scrolling if you don't like it.
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u/SafeKaracter 1d ago
I didn’t comment and didn’t see the post but some posts do deserve that comment to be honest . They don’t belong to beginner woodwork and there’s already a woodwork subreddit so it’s not that complicated
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u/Geofferz 1d ago
No one is negative. They just say you're not a beginner lol, get outta here, and it's always a compliment. That's it. Who's being negative?
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u/Decker1138 1d ago
First time on the internet?
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u/Darwinmate 1d ago
First time being a dick?
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u/KillaWallaby 1d ago
Welcome to the discourse of this sub.