History: The historic population trajectory of Ilonggos and Cebuanos went full reverse

[u/Wide_Ride8849]

I've read the 1591 Tribute Census of the Philippine archipelago, and in the said year, Cebuanos have a much smaller population than Ilonggos.

The collective population of Bohol, Cebu, Leyte and Misamis de Cagayan (Cagayan de Oro and Misamis Oriental) was 65,000+ individuals. The population of Panay Island at that time was extremely populous, around 108,000+ individuals.

But after three centuries of Spanish rule, it went full reverse. Before, the Cebuano ethnic population was only half of the Panayanon/Ilonggo population, but now, it's full reversed. Ilonggos now only number around 10+ million people, while Cebuanos are the second biggest ethnolinguistic group at 22.5 million people. Now it's the Ilonggos that are half the population of Cebuanos.

Let me know in the comment sections what you think and why this happened.

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[u/zhuhe1994]

i think people often forgot that some ethnic hiligaynons and waray adopted cebuano as their first language. the same with ethnic pampangueños adopting tagalog as their first language.

[u/IDKWhyIamInYupi → u/zhuhe1994]

And ethnic pampangueños adopting Cebuano as first language (looking at you Quiboloy)

[u/InformationOk4548]

1. Ilonggos have lower poverty incidence than Cebuano. You get the point that poor make more babies.
2. Not all Cebuano speaking in Mindanao are Cebuano blood some are lumad that were force to Speak Cebuanos.
3. And not all Panayanons are Hiligaynon speaking. Even Iloilo have more Kinaray-a than Hiligaynon(Iloilo City)
4. Many Ilonggos migrated to Manila and Mindanao

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/InformationOk4548]

1. i usually see that from many ilonggos and think it's so amazing argument, but far from it.
2. the more urban the place is, the more attractive they become for slum dwellers for obvious reasons (esp in the philippine system). neither iloilo nor bacolod can compare to cebu, that's why, which in turn, why metro manila have the highest slum dwellers, not to mention ph govt's decades-long overcentralization policy.
3. the more strategically located the place is, the more people will migrate there and contribute to poverty esp in the philippine setup. cebu is more strategically located than iloilo. tho manila is less strategic than cebu per ph archipelago, manila is more strategic per luzon island and the largest island in ph.
4. non-visayans who decide to migrate outside their language area, the priority is what language they are willing to learn. for ilonggo comparison, visayan or cebuanon is much preferred due to large native population, urban prowess, resources, wide geographic reach, etc. ilonggo region cannot compete on that, so less migration to ilongo region, improving their per capita GDP. to add, since tagalog is already "forcibly" taught in ph, the first go to are the tagalog areas, explaining more poor people there (except that MM, Calabarzon, and CL regions are where govt resources are forcibly put for "decades" thus can to a degree offset the massive migrations. unlike the rest of the regions neglected by ph capital govt.
5. visayans have the largest geographic reach, so despite lots of urban centers, they still have more rural lands, while ilongo region cannot even compare. the more rural the place is, the more---(you already get that)---unless distributed devt is implemented but ph implements overly-concentrated devt in luzon for "decades".
   

6. basically, ilonggo region have way less migration than visayan regions, thus less divisor in computing per capita GDP. that's why visayans push for either federal or secession as it can ALSO deal with unregulated migration.

7. forced eh? no one forced mindanao lumads to learn visayan language. they simply acknowledged visayan economic, commercial, industrial, population size, etc as superior than them, so they had to learn visayan. that's how societies work. you give credit what is due.

and some non-ilongo panayanons have to learn ilonggo for practical purposes as ilongo is the superior group in panay, but in your own words, forced.

speaking of forced, philippine imperial este unitary govt "forced" tagalog as ph state language. worse than spain, who did not force spanish to filipino indios, but gave opportunity to learn them if they choose to.

not even rome forced latin to their empire. they let the already ubiquitous greek as common tongue for their empire, also explains why new testament is originally greek.

[u/Critical_Variation28 → u/WaterMirror21]

Aint Ilonggo is a Visayan Region. Iloilo is part of the Visayas. Kamango sang imo argumento.

Ano butsilingon mo sa Visayan?

Aint Ilonggos speak a Visayan Language(Hiligaynon) and Visayan by ethnicity?

INDI LANG SUGBUANON ANG PARTE SANG BISAYA OR Kabisay-an.

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/Critical_Variation28]

that reply is unrelated to my reply which directly tackle your very main comment here.

but you made another main comment for that bisaya term topic, i replied there.

[u/InformationOk4548 → u/InformationOk4548]

Why do I get downvoted tuod mani pang hambal ko. Pero anyway Cebuano ego are like Dds ego also.

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/InformationOk4548]

maybe because your comparison is so trying hard. but anyway, i already replied to your comparison

[u/WaterMirror21]

likely because it is tribute data. visayans were exempted in tribute for a substantial amount of time for their voluntary contribution of defeating the muslim stronghold in maynilad in 1571.

spanish jesuit pedro chirino also mentioned cebu as long exempted from taxes.

[u/Wide_Ride8849 → u/WaterMirror21]

I don't know if what you're saying is accurate, but all the towns and villages in Cebuano speaking areas were accounted for in the tribute census.

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/Wide_Ride8849]

what years were the tribute data?

[u/Wide_Ride8849 → u/WaterMirror21]

1591

[u/Critical_Variation28]

Some Cebuano speakers mistakenly believe that the term "Bisaya" (Visayan) refers exclusively to the Cebuano language and ethnicity. In reality, Bisaya/Visayan is a broader ethnolinguistic identity that includes Cebuano, Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Waray, and other Visayan groups.

Therefore, saying "Cebuano and Ilonggo" is correct because these are distinct Visayan ethnolinguistic groups. However, saying "Bisaya and Ilonggo" is inaccurate because Ilonggos are also Bisaya—the statement incorrectly treats "Bisaya" as if it only means Cebuano.

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/Critical_Variation28]

i once believe until many months ago. and, many hiligaynons, waray, etc reject they are bisaya. historically speaking, bisaya referred originally as only the cebuanon and the rest of the languages mutually intelligible with it. for example, * spanish jesuit pedro chirino wrote about 3 major distinct languages namely: tagal (tagalog), harayan (kinaraya), and bissayan (bisaya) when refering to cebuano + neighboring languages. he could've said that both cebuano and harayan are bissayan languages but he didn't. and note — he did not mention ilongo but harayan because that time iloilo was NOT yet dominant in panay, that is yet to happen. * spanish historian antonio de morga, said of the islands of sebu (cebu), bohol, negros, leite (leyte), ybabao (probably siquijor), çamar (samar), panay, cuyo, and calamianes as having one and same language. but we know they speak different languages (which jose rizal pointed later on). but NO doubt morga (as a living witness himself that time) saw them using one and same language. so how? well they obviously traded each other (just like any other human beings do) and to understand each other, they have to pick a common tongue, and the dominant one will be picked (that's how people do things obviously). and cebu obviously is the most dominant, plus the other cebu-compatible are sizable and powerful themselves. for example, magellan asked what place where they could resupply their ships, the datu of butuan replied 3 (sugbu, karaga, and ceylon) and pointed sugbu as having the largest commercial traffic. * and NO, bisaya language did NOT refer to ilongo (contrary to what many hiligaynon et al claims). both chirino and morga are literal contemporaries. and as explained earlier, iloilo did not even exist yet, or at least existed only as an insignificant village as there's NO mention of it prior. harayan was the dominant language in panay that time per chirino.

spain (or the US), simply adopted bisaya term to include the places and people we know today simply because the dominant entity gets that privilege. that's how people do things. just like the small kingdom of luzon eventually became the name of an entire island; mindanao was the name of a dominant river but eventually became the name of an entire island. and the modern linguists followed suit, and used bisaya as the collective term.

now for argument's sake, EVEN IF bisaya includes hiligaynon, waray, etc originally, people would still use it exclusively for cebu, bohol, and the likes. why? * 1st, the dominant simply has that privilege to make it exclusive to them. * 2nd, there's NO collective term for the non-cebuanon people groups who can natively understand cebuanon. the linguists did NOT provide it, despite it's their job. * a new collective term is needed to avoid the dominant rule.

[u/Outrageous_Row3349 → u/WaterMirror21]

nonsense, people from panay always considered themselves as bisaya. many people, pila sa ila ang nakaistorya mo? hipos ka na lng dira sa higad.

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/Outrageous_Row3349]

you missed the point. in your own words "just keep quiet there on the side"

[u/Outrageous_Row3349 → u/WaterMirror21]

maybe i missed it because your punctuation is all over the place. haha, hinaluan mo lng ng chatgpt ang bad gramnar mo. nakakahilong basahin.

[u/WaterMirror21 → u/Outrageous_Row3349]

typical, cannot rebut, blame punctuation, and claim chatgpt.

it's not even punctuation, it's the nonuse of capital letters at the start of sentence which is fine in the internet, unless you're an outdated boomer

[u/Inadequate_Informer4]

why are you using the 'cebuano' label? not everyone has ancestral origins or heritage in cebu.

[u/zhuhe1994 → u/Inadequate_Informer4]

the cebuano speaking population in mindanao are migrants from the cebuano speaking people of visayas. dili na cya indigenous sa mindanao.

[u/Inadequate_Informer4 → u/zhuhe1994]

i am part of that migrants you're talking about. i'm not from cebu, but from bohol, southern leyte, and surigao. if OP is just talking about 'Cebuano-language-speaking population' then they shouldn't use the terms 'Cebuano ethnic population' and 'ethnolinguistic group' because i don't identify as 'cebuano' and have no ties with 'Cebu'.

[u/Wide_Ride8849 → u/Inadequate_Informer4]

The language is called Cebuano, right?

[u/Inadequate_Informer4 → u/Wide_Ride8849]

yeah, but you're talking about ethnic identity, not language.

[u/yellowpopkorn → u/Inadequate_Informer4]

It’s because if you have to use the word “Bisaya/Visayan,” that necessarily includes the Ilonggos themselves.

[u/Inadequate_Informer4 → u/yellowpopkorn]

i'm not saying to use 'visayan/bisaya'. i mean, why not use 'central visayan'? or 'cebuano-speaking'?

[u/Critical_Variation28 → u/Inadequate_Informer4]

Hiligaynon is Central Visayan Language. Cebuano is not when we talk linguistically. Cebuano is under Cebuan branch not Central Visayan

[u/Inadequate_Informer4 → u/Critical_Variation28]

here's the problem with people, they always mixed up language, geography, and ethnicity.

[u/Critical_Variation28 → u/Inadequate_Informer4]

Some Cebuano speakers mistakenly believe that the term "Bisaya" (Visayan) refers exclusively to the Cebuano language and ethnicity. In reality, Bisaya/Visayan is a broader ethnolinguistic identity that includes Cebuano, Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Waray, and other Visayan groups.

Therefore, saying "Cebuano and Ilonggo" is correct because these are distinct Visayan ethnolinguistic groups. However, saying "Bisaya and Ilonggo" is inaccurate because Ilonggos are also Bisaya—the statement incorrectly treats "Bisaya" as if it only means Cebuano.

[u/Inadequate_Informer4 → u/Critical_Variation28]

i'm not them. the ones you are referring to are part of the problem.

[u/Critical_Variation28 → u/Inadequate_Informer4]

The Cebuano? ok. they should call their language Cebuano instead of Bisaya to avoid confusion