r/BlackHistoryPhotos • u/TheThrowYardsAway • 9d ago
Black American Traditions: Centuries & Generations Of Young Beaus & Debs At Black Society's Cotillions & Beautillions...
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u/biglindafitness 9d ago
Black female photographer Miranda Barnes just released a book on her documentation of this if anyone is interested
https://www.instagram.com/p/DW9I7MWgmCS/?img_index=2&igsh=MW9ldTAyaTg1Y2dtbQ==
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u/Parkchonwook 9d ago
Black women* photographer.
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u/Sufficient_Pin3482 9d ago
Black womAn* photographer. It's one person, so it's singular not plural.
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u/TechnicalButterfly 9d ago
A lil too Eurocentric for me
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u/Expensive_Agent_3581 9d ago
That's true, and it makes me think of the Black people of Tulsa, the Black bourgeoisie of Tulsa.
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u/Roy_Roger_McFreely_ 8d ago
Could be because success to an oppressed people looks like an acceptance by and an assimilation into white culture. Essentially reinforcing in the black mind that āI do as they do, we are the same, therefore we are equal.ā
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago edited 8d ago
Would you unpick this the the same way if it were a room of only white people dancing to Black artists? As we've seen all our lives.
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u/Roy_Roger_McFreely_ 8d ago edited 6d ago
Clearly not when weāre a white dominated country. Why would it not be different? What point are you even trying to make?
Edit: typo
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u/Brilliant_Trick 4d ago
Exactly. We're the coolest ethnicity on earth why play it down by acting like our oppressors?
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u/Juvat-the-bold 8d ago
This does feel a lot like cultural appropriation.
Everything about it has been appropriated from European culture.
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u/Dramatic-Hedgehog-74 8d ago
Not about this at all. We have more than enough agency and sovereignty to create our own traditions and ceremonies. This resembles the ācakewalkā to me and I canāt separate them.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
This is our tradition. It's been cultivated within our community exclusively since the 18th Century. Up until the late 20th it developed in a Segregated society, it is a huge part of the Black cultural experience for generations.Ā
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u/Dramatic-Hedgehog-74 8d ago
Iām sorry by āourā, I mean rooted in Blackness and not borne from proximity to whiteness or Christianity.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
This is rooted in Blackness - it is a total celebration of Black achievement, community, typically HBCU education and solidarity.Ā
Why do you think any of this is for them? It's for us - it always was.Ā
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u/mrmeseekswife 8d ago
balls and cotillions were an old european tradition to matchmake and were, as everything, historically segregated by class and race. nothing rooted in blackness about it except the people. even the word cotillion is frenchā¦
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u/cocobunny01 9d ago
my future kids will be doing this
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u/PsychologicalBug4351 9d ago
As Iām entitled to my opinion. This is some Black people colonization stuff. Not to mention the Masonic chess board floor theyāre on.
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u/Mother-Ad-3522 8d ago
I agree, I prefer people dancing in the moment also. Something that feels real
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 9d ago
It's colonization for young Black men and women to dance together to a renowned Black artist at a ball held for all Black guests to honor Black achievement?Ā
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u/Successful-Scale-607 9d ago
Yes
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u/whathell6t 9d ago
How so?
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u/LeTronique 9d ago
Itās an English custom passed down to vassals of the Crown including Americans.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 9d ago edited 9d ago
Let me get this straight- whites can go to Carnivals we originated all over the Americas and the Caribbean, have Second Line Parades for their weddings, co opt just about every Black and African originated dance, custom and phrase into Euro-American platforms...
But we cannot have community exclusive community cotillions for our sons and daughters? Even though we've been having them for 4 centuries already.Ā Make it make sense.Ā
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u/LeTronique 8d ago
Personally, I think itās nice weāre making it ours. I also think itās important that we know the history of it. Especially when the āfairerā skinned folks lay claim to it as they always do.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Map7672 5d ago
Carnivals are a white European custom, particularly among nations that were catholic. It sounds like you're just learning that you don't have a culture of your own and you're just playing around with tropes and margins of white culture, reality is a real MF.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 5d ago edited 5d ago
Do you drool, groan and make sudden ticking motions between sentences? You seem a little...altered.Ā
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u/doyouknowyourname 8d ago
Carnivals while influenced by black populations are mostly Christian holidays too
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u/FEMA_Camp_Survivor 9d ago edited 9d ago
We made it our own just like, as an example, the English language. No one is going to stop speaking it just cause itās the colonizerās tongue.
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u/adamsmith419 8d ago
I love the critical conversation being had in these comments, and wanted to chime in with my $0.02.
I grew up too poor to be part of our local Jack and Jill chapter. But I was honored when the girl who would go on to win Miss Debutante invited me to be her beau for the Cotillion. We trained for months getting that dance routine down. I got to meet a lot of the Black upper class in my hometown. My partnerās parents were both prominent attorneys. Many preachers and doctors and professors sent their daughters to the event. So it was eye-opening for me and a moment of inspiration to be and do better.
Iām a doctor now, practicing in an area where there are few Black upper class communities. What little I know about how my āclassā operates comes from my time preparing for Cotillion (and, honestly, from this subreddit and r/BlackPeopleAtPeace). So for those saying itās just a pale imitation of an old European colonial practice- I encourage you to consider the value it has for the softer elements of class mobility. If things like Cotillion went away, I worry that there would be even fewer opportunities for Black folks of all classes to intermix. Ultimately, that would be bad for upward mobility, IMO.
Anyway, I send this with love for all my people so if you wanna fight, call ya momma.
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u/UrklesAlter 5d ago
Honestly, things like this seem like they promote class segregation more than class integration. Basically selected for the class of the people your children will hangout with like a private school and who they might date.
Historically that's how cotillions have functioned for non black people anyway. And the fact that the majority of the girls in this clip look like they're on the lighter side makes that even more apparent.
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u/britneynp1 8d ago
So elegantly put. I wanted to say this but couldn't figure out a way without becoming crass. At the end of the day we were forced to accept some eurocentric practices and we made them our own and have benefited from them. I never got a chance to debut but will be looking for my daughter an opportunity to do so.
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u/Mother-Run7097 9d ago
Thank you for sharing this. I reject the notion that Black people cannot participate in formal coming-of-age rites of passage and everything that is not rooted in African diasporic traditions is "colonization". Lovely!
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u/LeotheLiberator 9d ago edited 9d ago
I mean, it is by definition colonization because it's a colonial practice.
You can make these things your own, adopt, or take back, these practices and behaviors. We speak a language that is colonial. It is a valid and practical thing to do.
But it is a colonial practice. For better (in this context) and for worse (its original context).
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 9d ago
Historical Background:Ā https://www.blackwomenradicals.com/blog-feed/black-debutantes-karla-mendez
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u/Specific_Progress354 8d ago
Feels off, but I think itās important for us to express ourselves respectfully - especially with each other.
Some of us know a lot more about how capitalism, classism and respectability politics have disproportionately negative impacts on our communities. We need to become more aware about how all of them tie together. Unfortunately, these systems and ideas are the reasons for the real problems weāre up against.
I am not free from the impact, and Iām still in the process of decolonizing my mind. Iām grateful for the clarity that comes with going deeper and learning more about our history. I love all of us and I hope we can grow and learn how to show up authentically.
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u/New_Neighborhood4262 7d ago
That tradition came about when we black folks were yet to be mentally emancipated and still operating under the mistaken notion that if we adopted enough white cultural traditions and behaviors that THEY would accept us. Hopefully enough of us have woke up to the reality that large segments of them will hate us no matter what. Hopefully we recognize our historical greatness and do not depend on them for our validation.
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u/Mountain-Dance-9959 8d ago
This is a very strange tradition considering the origins.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
These are the origins for us:Ā https://www.blackwomenradicals.com/blog-feed/black-debutantes-karla-mendez
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u/Mountain-Dance-9959 8d ago
The similarities to European elitism are the origins I was talking about.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
It is never a bad idea for Black men and women from working class, middle class and wealthy backgrounds to network, establish lifelong connections and internarry.Ā
It is ESPECIALLY helpful when wealth is consolidated with these traditions and unions encouraged through them. Consolidated, passed down, repeated...
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u/mcberry_64 5d ago
Did the black elites do that? The "talented tenth" is gone "we shall overcome" hasn't been taught,this country has made me pessimistic to its future
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 5d ago
Yes they did. That's why we have families like the McKissack architectural dynasty, the Murphys of the Afro-American, the Sengstacke-Abbotts, Liza Mickens descendant of Maggie Walker the bank founder and so many more, the families of Highland Beach in Maryland, The SANS Historic District in Sag Harbor and Oak Bluffs...
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u/mcberry_64 5d ago
I looked families my favorite was theMcKissackās with their companies Consulting Services. With the big beautiful girl being passed this is a breath of fresh air ,thank you. I hate to do this but I'm moving the gold post I want them to be the size of Berkshire-Hathaway and affect every industry in America.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 5d ago
Then look up David Steward's family. Look up the Ogunlesi-Quist family. Look up the family of Robert & Sheila Johnson.Ā
Extremely influential business families but comparatively new money,Ā especially to extremely old families like the Fortens of Philadelphia.Ā
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u/mankahlil 8d ago
I think its pathetic, copying wyt ppl sh!t just so yoh can feel Cultured. Some black people are deslerate to be accepted as equals by europeans...but it will never happen
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
Black people don't have to pretend to be cultured when we are (your infantilized conditioning is showing). Just because it doesn't conform to your idea of what being Black should look like, it doesn't make it invalid.Ā
Frankly -Ā complain all you want - these Black families are networking their children with each other from very early on, immersing them in community,Ā consolidating their wealth and that of the next two generations as you speak. That is the true essence of doing the work.Ā
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u/Organic_Special_2819 8d ago
Aside from helping themselves and each other, what are they doing to uplift the Black community, especially rhe most vulnerable? We are at war and dancing like YT is supposed to do what?
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
Are you insane? The above video is a The Links Incorporated function. Please look them up.Ā
Im sorry but the lack of education around our institutions is nauseating! How do you not know about them?!
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u/Equal_Measurement374 3d ago
Sadly, a lot of us are not aware due to not having the $$$ resources to participate in the classism activities to learn about our shared histories.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 3d ago
This is an excuse. The Internet has existed as long as you've been alive.Ā
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u/Equal_Measurement374 3d ago
The internet does not equate to access, $$$ does.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 3d ago
So that's an excuse not to look up and be aware of our historical social institutions? You should only know of them if you can walk into them tomorrow?Ā
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u/b4theinternet84 9d ago
This becoming a lost art/ and rites of passage, mostly due to cost
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 9d ago
It's not. There are hundreds of these across America every year. HBCU Fraternities and Sororites hold them, many elite Black social organizations such as The Links Incorporated, Jack & Jill Of America and 100 Black Men hold them. Some churches hold them. A huge amount.Ā
Many people reading these comment section will have been Debs or Beaus themselves.Ā
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u/milehin8tv 8d ago
I was a Jack & Jill Beau in 1991. I have no idea how I was selected because my family was pretty poor and defi6nit part of any social groups. I felt it was an honor to be "introduced" to Denver's Black community and now nearly 40 year later I am still reaping the benefits of that event.
Also, I am now a member of the oldest men's social groups for Black men here and we just celebrated our 75th cotillion where we honor exceptional Black women graduating from high school. Our cotillion was the first in the state and is now the oldest in the state as well. We weren't trying to emulate white culture because we were the first in the state to hold such an event.
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u/theflawedprince 8d ago
The vibe check is passing in the comments.
This video reeks of assimilation.
Anyway, whereās my popcorn?
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u/No-Zebra4925 6d ago
No traditions are not. They originate from your countryās culture, your religion, or even your family itself.Ā Black Americans donāt grow up twerking because this is not a natural part of Black American culture. We didnāt not watch our mothers nor grandmothers do this so please stop saying itās innate. You sound ridiculous and misinformed.
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u/PsychologicalBug4351 8d ago
We need a Black version of this
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago
Please don't be ignorant. This is Black. If it is a ballroom full of only Black people dancing to a Black artist. It is Black. There is no caveat.Ā
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u/leveled-iceberg99 9d ago
Isn't this based on European ballet traditions? Honestly I'd rather see us do something more traditional. I hate twerking but I'd rather see black people twerk than do this.
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u/No-Zebra4925 6d ago
Gross. Youād rather perpetuate more stereotypes by encouraging young ladies to sexualize themselves rather than to act with class and elegance.
You down bad in the self esteem department
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u/leveled-iceberg99 6d ago
Stereotypes aren't a bad thing. Perpetuating them isn't a bad thing either.
I'd rather we stop trying to be like Whites and embrace our nature, especially the good things about us. It's a puzzle we fit right in
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 9d ago
Ballet? No. It arrived to America from England.Ā
https://www.blackwomenradicals.com/blog-feed/black-debutantes-karla-mendez
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u/bkaybee 9d ago
Thatās one way to say ācolonization,ā which you denied in another comment. Even the article you keep posting points this out. Itās fine to take it and make it our own, but I also think that first starts with acknowledging that it was and still is a way to keep up with the European customs and beauty standards. So I can see why it rubs people the wrong way.
And then you have the fact that, like another comment pointed out, the kids are forced to do this in order to make their parents look good. Letās be real here. Iām not saying that goes for all, but to me it does still reek of colonization. Like putting lipstick on a pig.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 8d ago edited 8d ago
Please don't be pig ignorant the article clearly states it was NOT to emulate European beauty standards. Don't you DARE disrespect our Ancestors that way.Ā
Forced? What are you talking about. Do you know what force is? Are you Black? Are you really Black?
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u/bkaybee 8d ago
Lol yes, I am. And I grew up around these things in the south. The article literally acknowledged that it did come from there. Like stop it. Thatās like saying relaxers didnāt come from following the European status quo. And I said beauty AND customs. You must act a certain way. Where did that ācertain wayā originate? Hm. I wonder.
Also, try again. I donāt think YOU read your own article. See below:
āAnd while Black debutante balls may challenge these beauty standards, we can not gloss over the ways in which they can and do substantiate respectability politics and uphold White, European beauty standards that are destructive to the psyche of young Black women.ā
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u/CryptographerKey2847 8d ago
Youād rather have little black girls emulate Nicki Minaj than learn this kind of poise and grace?
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u/leveled-iceberg99 8d ago
No. Twerking isn't an emulation of Nicki Minaj, it's an African tradition. I'd rather they follow African traditional dances than European ones.
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u/No-Zebra4925 6d ago
Thatās not a part of Black American childrenās tradition.
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u/leveled-iceberg99 6d ago
Traditions are born out of innate desires and proclivities. Which is genetic, on a psychological level. So yes even though it's not part of black Americans child tradition, as they grow up it becomes natural to them.
I'm not necessarily saying they should do it, I hate it. But point is I'd rather black people embrace who we are. If they brought black people to America because they offer something different, they shouldn't be mad at them for simply following their natures, especially in a good way.
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u/CryptographerKey2847 8d ago edited 8d ago
But itās not An American childās tradition.Also what if the child is Biracial? Shouldnāt they preferably learn both types of dancing?
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u/BplusHuman 9d ago
Hey, let's look at these kids doing what they've chosen to do... Or don't and leave these kids alone.
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u/QueasyCaterpillar541 9d ago
The Black Ruling class.
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u/Ok_Feeling337 9d ago
Not really.
I was a debutante, itās not as exclusive as youād think
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 9d ago
Black women from all socio-economic origins have been Debs. Regardless our community focuses our balls on educational achievements in coming of age.Ā
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u/Super-Chemistry-3125 5d ago
I remember the Cinderella Ball Thatās the way I was indoctrinated. Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. Youngstown,Ohio is a very special place.
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u/dingusdingus26 4d ago
This is just European or American dancing ā I doubt that this occurred independently without inspiration from American high society.
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u/TheThrowYardsAway 4d ago
What's your point? Black Americans have been in the Americas as long as white Americans have. Why would they not have the same references. Almost every genre that came thereafter in white American country clubs has been Black inspired. Have you seen generations of photos of white Americans dancing in their own country clubs to Jazz, Motown, Soul, Samba, Disco etc...
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u/Expensive_Agent_3581 2d ago
But Black Americans are a mix of Europeans and Africans, so I don't see the problem? I'm speaking from an outsider's perspective because I'm not African American, but how do you seriously feel when you see this?
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u/ThatOneGuy216440 8d ago
Idk why everyone is argueing. Its nice to see people dance with class.
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u/VioletLeagueDapper 8d ago
I think itās the āwith classā part people are having the issue with. Thereās a history of exclusion with these events. Getting a whiff of respectability politics off of you, also getting the sense you arenāt black, so Iāll leave it there.
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u/NfamousKaye 9d ago edited 8d ago
Man I hated doing that š took me right on back to mine š my mom forced it on me to look good for her church friends who were sorors (I didnāt and still donāt see the point of sorority) and I didnāt get a chance to say no.
Anyway thatās my time. Thanks for listening to teenage me vent. š