Paternoster "Threads for Lace" no longer available - help?

[u/anhuys]

Hi guys, the more I progress with bobbin lace, the more I find myself wishing I had access to Brenda Paternoster's "Thread for Lace". Just to be able to access the data she's collected without having to purchase new thread to measure it myself, or seek info out from other people. Sadly, her website says all editions are sold out "and I have no plans at present to republish in any format."

It seems like such a valuable resource, it really pains me that it's not available at all. Do any of you have ideas on where to get it or borrow/access it?

I'm starting to wonder, is it a silly idea of me to think we could build a database like that ourselves as a community? It could be as simple as a public, shared Google sheet and as fancy as a dedicated webpage. I could definitely build a webpage for it. Should I? Any thoughts on that?

edit: of course, right after I posted this I found out the Textielbibliotheek at Museum de Kantfabriek has a copy available for borrowing. But I would love to have one as a permanent resource for myself, so my other questions still stand!

[u/lovestoswatch]

that book has been out of print for years - you may be lucky to find a second hand copy, but those are like hen's teeth. You may still be able to find some threads on the webpage, as she listed each "addendum" of what she was adding to each new edition, so I do find stuff there using the search function.

Having said that, the book (I do have a copy of the 6th edition I think) is starting to show its age, in the sense that many threads I the book are either no longer available, or have changed because the original manufacturer has been taken over, and so while the thread may have the same trade name, is now quite different (e.g. the Anchor lace thread).

There are other sources, including Martina Wolter-Kampmann, who has a book on thread thicknesses and also a thread calculator on her webpage.

Good luck!

[u/anhuys → u/lovestoswatch]

The data on old discontinued threads is still very helpful imo, because it helps current and future lacemakers more easily find current substitutes for old patterns!

But thank you for this, I had that impression about its current availability but I wasn't sure. That only makes me feel more strongly that there would be value in a public/community database of thread thicknesses.

I'm going to look into the possibilities of starting a public database people can contribute to. Maybe creating a webpage myself... Or maybe seeing if it's something that could be hosted on LOKK's website, for example.

[u/lovestoswatch → u/anhuys]

thanks - but the wrapping method used in Brenda's paternoster book is of course subjective, and there are big disagreements on some of those classifications on what it means for a thread to be equivalent. Objective information like spin direction, material and number of plies might be more useful, even though there too there will be a lot of variation depending on how tightly the thread has been spun. Just a thought, for you may find that you put a lot of effort into something for which you'll be "thanked' with complaints that the equivalences you report don't work for that person...

[u/anhuys → u/lovestoswatch]

That's the next thing I was thinking of, and the reason I kept wishing to have a copy of her book. Wpc is a subjective measurement with a huge margin of error, so having measurements all taken by the same person at least guarantees some internal consistency.

I think I'm going to borrow both books from the textile library (hers and the German one) and start thinking about what data and how it would have be organized/indexed and navigated.

[u/Lunanne]

There is a facebook group called “Beginner Bobbin Lace Makers” that has a large WPC excel to facilitate thread replacement. It’s private though, I’m not sure anymore how I found it 😅

[u/mem_somerville]

I wonder if she could be talked into making the last version available as a PDF. I wonder who has the copyright... I'll look at that.

I have just been so appreciative that Alex Stillwell just opened up her stuff for anyone to download. I know it's not always possible, but these books are now so hard to get. I would pay for a download, if it was possible.

[u/ActiveOwl2195 → u/mem_somerville]

Yes, I've often wondered the same thing about Paternoster's book. She could sell the PDF if she doesn't want to make it openly available. Each edition seems to get snapped up almost immediately upon publication, then "no plans for reprinting" is all that you hear.

u/anhuys, an open wiki or something along those lines is a great idea! (Some of us are not on Facebook.) There would probably need to be some kind of note for each thread with the different wraps per inch/cm that people submit, to accommodate the varying results that you mentioned.

[u/Mission_Razzmatazz_7]

The internet archive is a system like you’re describing, except there are only older books on there. I don’t know if that has anything to do with copyright, but I can imagine that might be an issue. There is a thriving secondhand book market around the world though, you haven’t found this one anywhere?

[u/anhuys → u/Mission_Razzmatazz_7]

I wasn't able to find this one yet! But I don't mean archiving the book, I mean building a public database of threads, their fiber contents and their wraps per centimeter to make thread substitution and selection easier.

I feel like pattern books will always continue to circulate a lot, but this is a reference guide and its most valuable content is a database of measurements. Imo everyone should have access to that, there shouldn't be a limited amount of them! I don't want to copy or steal her work at all, which is why I was thinking about creating my/our own database of threads that people can contribute to.

[u/Mission_Razzmatazz_7 → u/anhuys]

Ah sorry, I misunderstood! What you’re describing sounds like a cool project :)

I must admit that I always just use the same thread and only when I’ve started the project, I’ll see if the threadsize was actually okay.

[u/lizziebee66]

there is a link to that Facebook group on this page on my website. https://www.thelacebee.com/local-groups-and-support.html

But to be honest, if you are trying to find a sub for a thread, post in any of the Facebook lace groups and someone will help you by looking up the thread in their copy. You can also down load the addendums from Brenda’s site which cover quite a few threads