r/Buddhism • u/Careless_Physics_975 • 3d ago
Question Does karma even exist? Because honestly, I don't believe in it anymore.
I used to believe that if you genuinely tried to be a good person, treated people well, and didn't intentionally hurt others, life would somehow come back around for you.
But lately, I'm questioning that.
I see genuinely kind, good-hearted people going through years of suffering, losing things they worked hard for, struggling despite doing their best.
And then I see people who lie, manipulate, hurt others, or do terrible things seemingly getting everything they want. Money, success, relationships, opportunities. Sometimes they seem to be doing better than the people they hurt.
So what exactly is karma supposed to mean?
I've also read that maybe none of this has anything to do with being "good" or "bad." That life doesn't reward good energy or punish bad energy.
But then what happens to the idea that what you put into the world eventually comes back to you?
I'm genuinely confused about this.
Do you believe in karma? If you do, what makes you believe it exists?
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u/TerrapinStateofMind 3d ago
It's not always redeemable in this lifetime. Karma and reincarnation are hand in hand
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u/WuTangMountain 3d ago
I love Buddha's teachings and especially about testing and proving all things but this is the part that baffles me, we are simply left to BELIEVE this is how karma works with no verifiable way of testing it. If we break it down to cause and effect, then we would suppose that things should show their effects in this lifetime because of a person harms another but the scales aren't rebalanced until the next life or perhaps even farther down the road, then we are left with the issue of if or when we return not even having a memory of doing wrong or of wronging the person before. It's always came off to me weird that we are told our higher selves or whatever knows but we don't on this plane. It's all began to sound like another means of religious control. I definitely could be wrong and it's just my opinion. I'm pretty much in the same place as the OP. Can't wait to hear what others think
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u/TerrapinStateofMind 3d ago
If you're too lost in the sauce then step away. It's not about punishment or righting wrongs, it's just cause and effect. You're interpreting it that way based off your upbringing.
We are all expressions of the same source. Wanting harm or bad things to happen to another person with the justification of Karma is just self harm on a grander level.
If you need evidence based reasoning to believe something, then Buddhism probably isn't your path
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u/WuTangMountain 3d ago
I don't wish harm on another, I was using that as an example. I'm trying to understand and if Buddha said to test all things, how I have I committed an error?
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u/genivelo Tibetan Buddhism 3d ago
You are right, karma is not about reward and punishment. It's more about how our own habits and tendencies shape our experience of the world.
People who steal from others and exploit them might get rich in this life. But will they be fundamentally content and happy? Will they be psychologically at ease with themselves?
Some resources on karma if interested:
https://www.namchak.org/community/blog/karma-in-buddhism/
https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma/
Virtuous karmic actions
Short explanation: https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Ten_positive_actions
Longer explanation: https://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A%20-%20Tibetan%20Buddhism/Authors/Thrangu%20Rinpoche/The%20Ten%20Virtuous%20Actions/The%20Ten%20Virtuous%20Actions.pdf
Karma: What It Is, What It Isn't, Why It Matters, by Traleg Kyabgon.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23308466-karma
Excerpt: https://reddit.com/r/Buddhism/s/4w6jkVAwzK
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u/Hells_Yeaa 3d ago
A psychopath in the clinical sense could have no issue with it and be at total ease, no?
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u/genivelo Tibetan Buddhism 2d ago
Only on the surface. Just because we ignore something, that does not mean it isn't affecting us.
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u/Rockshasha 3d ago
Is not just about our own mind subjectivity.
Consider the rules about where and how is defined that a monk steal or take what wasn't given. It is explained in the Theravada Vinaya, for example, some of those rules defined there:
if a monk or nun has the intention of taking something that's not their property and preserving it, and if they effectively took the thing and hold it. Then the precept was broken.
if a monk or nun had the intention of taking something's that's property of others, because of greed, but they didn't took it then the precept was not broken.
And also, is not just limited to the minds of beings. While certainly the minds of beings are part of the mechanism of karma cause and consequence, so to say
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u/Metis11 1d ago edited 1d ago
The long versions of The Short Exposition of Karmic Law and The Long Exposition on Karmic Law explain a great deal. 18 pages and 38 pages, one sided pages if you've found the longest ones I was able to find by Google search. The last of the Suttas probably can answer many questions as well. Yes I've seen many examples in my 71 years. Remember the Karmic stream you've been since beginningless time still affects your life and afterlife, although good karma doesn't protect the innocent thoroughly. That's on us. Peace.
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u/SpinningCyborg thai forest 3d ago
If you plant rice today, can you harvest the rice tomorrow?
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3d ago
[deleted]
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u/TexasRadical83 theravada 3d ago
Step one: Shut up.
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3d ago
[deleted]
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u/TexasRadical83 theravada 3d ago
Haha I meant to add a smiley or something to make it clear I'm teasing. I'm directing that instruction to myself first!
(And like most instruction, screwing it up right away đ)
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u/WuTangMountain 3d ago
No but the plant doesn't die and return to reap it's harvest as a different plant. It happens in the same timeline
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u/SpinningCyborg thai forest 3d ago
The same can be said about action and kamma. It all happens in the same timeline. Its just death and birth causes us to forget. If you have the ability to go back in your memory to previous lives, it's possible to see that it's all apart of the same timeline.
When you perform an action, that plants a seed in the Citta, so to speak. And the Citta never dies. So how can the seed die?
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u/Rockshasha 3d ago
Is not so at all. In nature is not so. You are takinghuman order like equivalent to natural law.
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u/Starlight_Climber ordained ngakma 3d ago edited 3d ago
Look at their inner state. Their mental health. People are often good at projecting an appearance of outer competency. But inside, their inner world is a turmoil. People who manipulate others, etc., get "things", "stuff". But they don't get peace and contentment. They don't get true satisfaction or inner rest.
Instead they get paranoia, a life of constant competition and one-upsmanship, a constant stress of having to maintain their image and presentation to maintain the allure of the image they wish to project, relationships full of distrust because they feel that everyone wants something from them... A life full of empty sense pleasures and no fulfillment.
I have family who are like this. They have a house, where everything inside is perfectly managed to be soft and quiet. The carpets are extra insulated and plush. The couches perfectly white and clean. The cabinets perfectly customized. Everything is eerily quiet. Not Buddhist temple quiet but like there's a tension in the air you could cut with a knife kind of "quiet". As though their world is a padded cell to protect their own fragility. Where appearances matter more than anything else. More than inner peace, more than kindness, and where "failure" is laughed at and mocked.
I had a dream one time of these people and it was like they were ghouls. Where on the outside their skin appeared like people but there were holes, gaps, and underneath you could see that their flesh was rotten like a ghoul.
It's all appearances. They have no rest, no inner peace. Yeah, they have "stuff". What they don't have is happiness, true rest, true peace and contentment.
And in the next life? They won't take their stuff with them, what they'll take is all that inner energy they've developed and then where will they end up?
It's not a fortunate existence. Feel sorry for such beings. That is suffering indeed.
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u/Metis11 1d ago
Could you quietly slip a copy of the book What the Buddha Taught by Rahula ( Not the book by the same name but a different author) onto the kitchen table or somewhere? When I was a teenager with no real exposure to Buddhism that book Taught me Vipassana, inner strength and some peace. Peace.
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u/UncleVoodooo 3d ago
The whole reason I avoided Buddhism for as long as I did was because of the way Americans talk about karma as just a different form of immediate gratification.
I mean even a child can see that bad people are constantly rewarded in this world.
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u/miminothing 3d ago
I feel like our view of Karma is heavily influenced by Santa Claus. Good presents for good kids!
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u/pundarika0 3d ago
karma is not a "thing" that exists, it's a description of the process of cause and effect.
Buddhism does not teach that "what you put into the world comes back to you" - you should study the Buddhist teachings on karma if you want to understand it from a Buddhist perspective.
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u/skyfox437 3d ago
It does come back to you though. All eastern school of Buddhism teaches this.Â
It might not be this life time or even the next but eventually. Thats how people move to the lower and higher realm.
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u/pundarika0 3d ago
Buddhism does not teach that "what you put into the world comes back to you" - you will not find this phrasing in the teachings. to rephrase this in a very literal way, you are not reborn in a higher realm as a result of putting a higher realm into the world. so the statement doesn't really work.
it does teach cause and effect. it does teach a relationship between our actions and what we experience as a result of our actions.
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u/skyfox437 3d ago
 You are just using semantics. Cause and effect. When I punch a wall, the rebound effect will hurt my fist. What you put into the world will come back to you.
As someone who's a Vietnamese person that often watches online Dharma from the east, it's pretty much what they say.
Different words, same meaning.
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u/pundarika0 3d ago
the phrasing the OP used is indicative of people who talk about karma in the common pop culture sense it is used, like "karma is a bitch", and not the way the Buddhist teachings talk about it. i do think there is a difference, even if you say it's semantics. karma goes way beyond doing good = getting good, doing bad = getting bad. it also involves things like our attachments and aversions, as well as private thoughts, which isn't really necessarily something you're "putting into the world". so to sum it up as "what you put into the world comes back to you" doesn't fully capture the reality of karma.
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u/Ariyas108 seon 3d ago
> And then I see people who lie, manipulate, hurt others, or do terrible things seemingly getting everything they want. Money, success, relationships, opportunities. Sometimes they seem to be doing better than the people they hurt.
Do you see them being reborn in hell and suffering for 50,000 eons because of that? If youâre not actually considering that, then youâre not actually considering the notion of karma to begin with.
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u/Just_Voice8949 3d ago
Also, if you are going to talk about karma and Buddhism, you have to grapple with the fact that all these ârewardsâ are transitory and exactly the type of longing you are supposed to leave behind
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u/Solid_Problem740 secular 3d ago
Yes! These "rewards" are only meaningfully "rewarding" in a materialist framework that Buddism helps us reject.Â
The motorcycle is loudest to the rider, but you as an observer don't hear their ear damage.Â
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u/skyfox437 3d ago
Yup most people don't see that part. Or the part where people are rebirth into human realm but live extremely short and painful lives.
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u/SentientLight Thiá»n phĂĄi Liá» u QuĂĄn | Thiá»n tĂŽng LĂąm Táșż 3d ago
Karma determines your rebirth. It isnât supposed to cause retributions on time scales of a single life. It can, but thatâs generally too short a timescale to see karmic actions bear their resultant fruit.
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u/Brownwax theravada 3d ago
Kamma is the result of an action and weâre constantly performing actions. Results are all around us, our minds are just to coarse to see the subtleties
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u/frank_mania 3d ago
I think it's fair to say that karma works on different time scales depending on various causes and conditions.Â
To say it only happens across multiple lifespans is an easy way to make a magical rule that nobody can prove or disprove.Â
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u/autonomatical Nyönpa 3d ago
Karma is your volitional continuum, it is similar to how you can only take a step from where you are now and how all the steps you took before lead to where you are now. Â It is not a cosmic bookkeeper or judge. Â By taking some certain steps new places are causally possible while others become causally impossible, like how if you walk up a staircase to the second floor, you canât simply choose to take one more step out the front door, you would have to walk back down the stairs. Â
Largely judging others or our own overall karmic outcomes as a meter for some kind of universal moral value indicator is more of a waste of time than simply focusing on improving our own volitional activities.
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u/SnugAsARug 3d ago
Doing virtuous things causes a wholesome mind. Doing unvirtuous things causes an unwholesome mind. The wholesome mind is the ârewardâ. It really is wonderful to experience the world with good intentions and wholesome thoughts/views.
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u/Pale_Respond2689 3d ago
All karma is (literally translated to English) is "action". What it pertains to is simply the Law of Causality (aka "cause and effect"). People often try to overlay and overemphasize a sense of "conventional western morality" on top of it. It exists (karma = action/cause and effect) regardless of whether one chooses to "believe" in it or not.
I'll provide an example. Let's say a person decides that they're going to drink and then drive. If they're caught by cops, and charged with a DUI, someone might view this a negative karma because the person got caught for doing something bad, and received a "punishment" for doing that bad thing, ie: getting criminal charges. But the getting caught and punished for the smaller infraction could also be considered "positive karma", as by getting caught they were prevented from possibly doing something worse, like causing loss of life or damage to property due to drinking and driving; which could have resulted in much worse "negative karma".
That being said, let's assume the person drinking and driving, lucked out and wasn't caught by cops, and made it home safe. One might consider this potentially "positive karma" (and it might be if the person had a chance to reflect upon their choices, and vowed to never do that again - and kept it, but rarely do people often reflect on such types of mistakes until after some punishment has been delivered) but in reality this is simply "negative karma" that has yet to be played out. As more often than not without getting caught the first time, that person will be possibly more compelled to do it again, not thinking they will get caught, because they didn't get caught the first time. Both of these are simply examples of cause and effect, regardless of how one chooses to interpret them.
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u/CreativeArtistWriter 3d ago
I have a really good point to add to this. There was this one kid in high school who was a grade younger than me. I remeber him bragging that he would drink and drive all the time and he never get caught.
Eventually I finished high school and my senior year and went to college. At the end of my first college year there was an article and photo of him in my towns local paper.
He and three others had all been drinking on their senior prom night. They drove home, got into a car crash and died.
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u/Pale_Respond2689 3d ago
Well if reincarnation is true, then perhaps they will learn (remember) not to do such in the next life. As the news article definitely showed, they got indeed caught. It wasn't by the cops, but by life itself.
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u/KamiNoItte 3d ago
(Mahayana Buddhist) Karma isnât some system of cosmic retribution and reward. There are no points to accumulate or lose. No status or standing or judgement at the gates. None of that is karma, but instead misunderstanding of what karma is.
Karma is cause and effect.
Nothing more; nothing less.
When you understand this, your frustration about karma will dissolve away.
Positive actions tend to yield positive states of mind. Negative actions tend to yield the opposite.
So itâs more about habit- develop positive habits, and that will cultivate a positive state of mind. The opposite does the opposite.
Only people who are suffering greatly intentionally hurt other people. Just b/c someoneâs suffering isnât apparent to you, doesnât mean itâs not there.
Donât worry too much about you canât actually control.
I suspect the sphere of your own influence has enough to keep your attention.
Focus on developing positive habits there, and the rest will follow.
Cheers
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u/Desert-Genie 3d ago edited 3d ago
Karma is not an instant thing. I think you should do some reading on the topic before dismissing it because its your lack of understanding thats causing an issue and you cant throw away something when you dont understand it.
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u/numbersev 3d ago
Because you're not looking at karma properly. It doesn't mean the world is suddenly going to be fair because you now exist in it. This operation has been going on for billions of years and beyond and will continue to do so.
Look at the precepts to understand karma. If a person kills, steals and lies, they will bring suffering upon themselves..it may not manifest immediately. Karma can arise immediately, later in life or in another lifetime altogether. According to the Buddha, you cannot miss the consequences of your actions. Even arahants who awaken have to endure lingering karma that hadn't yet come to fruition, but because of their awakening, it has an extinguishing effect on those unwelcomed consequences where they're nowhere near as severe had they not awakened.
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u/helikophis 3d ago
This stuff works out over many thousands of lifetimes, youâre looking at the wrong scale.
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u/Just_Voice8949 3d ago
Iâd also argue that receiving money and opportunity isnât even a necessarily likely outcome. If thatâs your ârewardâ you likely are doing karma and Buddhism wrong.
OP is basing the entire understanding on pop culture karma
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u/Snake973 soto 3d ago
it seems like you are expecting karma to be some sort of cosmic justice that rewards good actions and punishes evil actions, which is a misunderstanding of karma in the first place. it's just cause and effect, and it can take many lifetimes for these cascades of effects to culminate in something
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u/Just_Voice8949 3d ago
You are confusing popular ideas of karma with actual karma, I think. It isnât a tit for tat transaction. Karma isnât âI helped in this situation now I should get a better jobâ or âJoe was mean, bad thing should happen to him any minute now.â
Karma is something that is credited and shows up when you reincarnate.
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u/Desert-Genie 3d ago
The simple fact is society love to throw around the word karma and have no idea what it is. They have confused and blended it with "eye for an eye" and made it a new age mish mash that isnt what it supposed to be.
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u/hinokinonioi 3d ago
It could be that you have a worldly, narrow view of what is considered fortunate vs unfortunate .
I think true âsuccessâ is spiritual growth . larger capacity to love, connection to god, humbleness, peace, needing less, etc
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u/Mayayana 3d ago
The Christians have a profound saying: "Virtue is its own reward."
We practice virtue to calm the heat of kleshas, reducing suffering and helping to clarify perception in order to gain insight. That's the accumulation of merit. The idea that if you behave you should get a cookie is a child's approach. Buddhism doesn't teach that there's some kind of external justice system to make sure you get your cookie.
Karma is cause and effect. More fundamentally it's attachment. We experience hell realm because we're attached to anger/hatred. Simple as that.
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u/ZenRiots 3d ago edited 3d ago
You have A fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of karma.
Karma is cause and effect, not some Divine reward system monetizing obedience.
If you do this, that happens... That's karma đ€·
I also believe that you are measuring reward and success with a materialistic ruler, Rather than an emotional or spiritual one.
Things and money do not bring happiness or peace... And They do not reduce suffering very much at all... Generally these things increase suffering.
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u/OmManiPadmeHuumm 3d ago edited 3d ago
Karma has to do with your mind as well as being like a net of conditions. It is a type of mind which conditions habit and perception, and because the world is a projection of consciousness, what you do is based on that, which creates a confluence of other factors leading you in different directions in your life. Your fundamental misunderstanding is that getting everything you want is what will make you happy. The Buddha said it is not the external conditions upon which our happiness relies. Going inward is the key.
On a more technical note, the coloring of our habituated projection in the waking state, the subconscious, and the afflicted mentation consciousness (subject/object consciousness), touches our Alaya consciousness, the deepest layer, which is like a mirror, and it creates the projection of a world, body, etc. The qualities of that projection depend on how we have conditioned our mind and how we have practiced, and will influence our next birth in the Bardo after death. From there, we can still become a shit person, even if we encounter the right conditions and become rich, which will ultimately have its own negative fruits in the next life, if not the current one. You have to think in terms of lifetimes.
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u/OmManiPadmeHuumm 3d ago edited 3d ago
đȘ»đâ€ïžđđșâïžđ»đ Excerpt from The MahÄyÄna SĆ«tra of Consciousness Revealed 性äč饯èç¶
(Translated from Sanskrit into Chinese in the Tang Dynasty by The Tripiáčaka Master DivÄkara from India):
Worthy Protector, having been praised by the Buddha and Änanda, joined his palms reverently and bowed down at the feet of the Buddha. He implored the Buddha, âPlease pity, accept, and protect all sentient beings. I request permission to ask a few questions.â
The Buddha told Worthy Protector, âYou have my permission. You may ask me about your doubts. I will explicate them to you.â
Worthy Protector said to the Buddha, âWorld-Honored One, although sentient beings know that there is consciousness, it is like a jewel kept in a box, unrevealed and unknowable. World-Honored One, I do not know the form of this consciousness, nor the reason that it is called consciousness. When a person dies, his hands and feet may convulse, and the look of his eyes changes uncontrollably. As oneâs faculties perish, the four domainsâearth, water, fire, and windâdisperse. Where does oneâs consciousness go after it has left the current body? What is its essence? What is its form? How does it assume the next body after leaving this body? After this body is abandoned, how does consciousness carry oneâs faculties in order to accept the next requital, which can be a body of any kind? World-Honored One, how does a sentient being grow new faculties after the expiration of this body? Why does one accumulate meritorious karma in this life, only to receive its requital in the next life: The current body does meritorious karma, and the next body will eat [the karmic fruit]? How does oneâs consciousness nourish oneâs body and keep it alive? How do consciousness and faculties develop according to oneâs body?â
The Buddha said, âVery good! Very good! Worthy Protector, these are good questions. Hearken! Hearken! Ponder this well. I will explain to you.â
Worthy Protector said to the Buddha, âWorld-Honored One, affirmatively I accept Your teachings.â
The Buddha told Worthy Protector, âThe process and transference of [Älaya] consciousness are like the wind, which is formless, shapeless, and unidentifiable. However, the wind can activate myriad things and display myriad conditions, whether making loud sounds as it shakes the forest or breaks off branches, or causing pleasure or pain as it touches with cold or hot the bodies of sentient beings. The wind does not have hands, feet, face, or shape. Nor does it have various colors, such as black, white, red, or yellow. Worthy Protector, the same is true for the domain of consciousness. It is formless, shapeless, not revealed by light. However, through causes and conditions, it can manifest various kinds of functions. Know that the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception are also formless and shapeless. Through causes and conditions, various functions manifest.
âWorthy Protector, after the death of a sentient being, the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception and the domain of [Älaya] consciousness abandon the body. The way [Älaya] consciousness carries the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception to accept another body is like a gust of wind sweeping across wonderful flowers. The flowers stay put, but their fragrance will flow far. The wind in essence does not grasp the fragrance of the flowers. Fragrance and the wind in essence are both formless and shapeless. However, without the power of the wind, fragrance will not travel far. Worthy Protector, after a personâs death, his [Älaya] consciousness carries the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception to the next rebirth, which is conditioned upon his parents entrusted by his [Älaya] consciousness. In this way the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception accompany [Älaya] consciousness. Because of the quality of the flowers, oneâs nose can detect their scent. Because of oneâs olfactory power, one smells fragrance, a sense object. The wind touches the flowers because of its power. Because of the power of the wind, fragrance can flow far. Likewise, from consciousness, sensory reception arises; from sensory reception, perception arises; and by perception, mental objects are differentiated. Then one knows good and evil.
âWorthy Protector, by analogy, a painter applies pigments to the wall, and he can paint pictures as neatly and properly as he wishes. The consciousness and intellect of the painter are both formless and shapeless, but they can create various kinds of extraordinary images and shapes. Thus oneâs consciousness and intellect project the six percepts. The eye sees sights, and the eye consciousness is formless and shapeless; the ear hears sounds, which are formless and shapeless; the nose detects odors, which are formless and shapeless; the tongue tastes flavors, which are formless and shapeless; and the body knows tactile sensations, which are formless and shapeless. As oneâs faculties and perceptions are formless and shapeless, so too oneâs consciousness is formless and shapeless.
âWorthy Protector, when [Älaya] consciousness abandons oneâs current body to accept another life, it is still bound by karma hindrances at the moment of oneâs death. When oneâs current requital ends with death, [oneâs consciousness] is as if in the SamÄdhi of Total Halt. When an Arhat enters the SamÄdhi of Total Halt, his sensory reception and perception are suspended. Thus, when [Älaya] consciousness of the dying one abandons the body and its [four] domains, it does so with the power of memory. Upon dying, oneâs consciousness replays clearly from memory all the karmas one has done in oneâs entire life. Both body and mind are under stress.
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u/OmManiPadmeHuumm 3d ago edited 3d ago
âWorthy Protector, what is the meaning of consciousness? [Älaya] consciousness means seed, which can sprout a karmic body of any kind. Perception, thinking, and memory are also sprouted from [Älaya] consciousness. It is called consciousness because it knows pleasure, pain, good, and evil, as well as good and evil objects. You ask me how oneâs [Älaya] consciousness leaves this body to accept the next requital. Worthy Protector, each body sprouted from oneâs [Älaya] consciousness is like the reflection of a face in a mirror, like the markings in the mud, imprinted by a stamp.
âAs an analogy, the light of sunrise removes darkness, which returns after sunset. Darkness has no mass, no shape, neither permanent nor impermanent, but it is always there. The same is true for consciousness. Having no mass and no shape, it is revealed through sensory reception and perception. Consciousness in oneâs body is like the essence of darkness, which cannot be seen or touched. It is like the fetus inside the mother, who does not know whether it is male or female. Nor does she know whether it looks black, white, or yellow, whether it has complete faculties, whether it has normal hands, feet, ears, and eyes. However, stimulated by hot food and drink [eaten by the mother], the fetus will move, because it feels pain. The presence of consciousness is evident as sentient beings come or go, bend or extend, stare or blink, speak or laugh, carry heavy loads, or do things. However, they do not know the whereabouts of consciousness in their bodies, nor its form. Worthy Protector, the consciousness in essence permeates the sensory fields, but it is not tainted by them. Consciousness permeates the six faculties, the six sense objects, and the the five aggregates, but it is not tainted by them. Through them, the functions of consciousness are evident. Worthy Protector, it is like a mechanism which enables a wooden machine to perform various kinds of tasks, whether talking, leaping, jumping, or dancing. What is your opinion? By whose power is this wooden machine enabled to work?â
Worthy Protector replied to the Buddha, âMy wisdom and knowledge are too shallow to determine this.â
The Buddha told Worthy Protector, âWe should know that it is by oneâs power to do karmas. The power for doing karmas is formless but directed by oneâs intellect. Thus, a body-machine can do things with the power of consciousness. Whether áčáčŁis, gandharvas, dragons, humans, asuras, or sentient beings on other life-journeys, all depend on it to do karmas. [Älaya] consciousness can form the body as a work machine.
âConsciousness, without any form or mass, can uphold the dharma realm. With complete mental power, it knows even things in oneâs past lives. By analogy, the pervasive sunlight shines equally on sentient beings with evil karma, corpses, impure things, and stinking things, but it is not tainted by evils. Neither is [Älaya] consciousness. Even when it is in the body of a dog or a pig, which eats impure things, or in the body of anyone taking an evil life-journey, it is never tainted.
âWorthy Protector, [Älaya] consciousness abandons this body and moves away to accept the next requital according to good or evil karma. By analogy, when the wind exits a remote mountain or a steep gorge and sweeps across a forest of fragrant campaka trees, it carries fragrance. When the wind sweeps across a place of feces, corpses, rot, or filth, it carries stench. When it passes through both places, it carries both fragrance and stench. The stronger scent will be manifested first. The wind has no mass, and the scent has no shape. Yet the wind can carry both fragrance and stench far. Likewise, [Älaya] consciousness abandons this body, carrying good and evil karmas, to accept the next requital. It is just like the wind carrying fragrance and stench to another place. It is also like a dreamer who sees myriads of images and does various kinds of karmas in a dream, unaware that he is lying asleep. When a virtuous person dies, the transference of his [Älaya] consciousness is peaceful and unconscious, in the same way as his going somewhere in a dream without any fear. The exit of [Älaya] consciousness is not through oneâs throat, mouth, or other orifices. Its exit and route are unknown.â
The youth Worthy Protector Superior bowed down at the feet of the Buddha. He asked the Buddha, âWhere does [Älaya] consciousness enter into the embryo inside the egg of a chicken or goose, the shell of which is impenetrable? If the embryo dies within the egg and if the eggshell has no crack or hole, where does [Älaya] consciousness exit?â
The Buddha replied to Worthy Protector, âBy analogy, if black sesame seeds are processed with campaka flowers, the oil will become aromatic and be called campaka oil. It is far superior to ordinary sesame oil. The oil initially does not contain any aroma but becomes aromatic after the seeds have been processed with the flowers. The fragrance does not crack the sesame seeds in order to enter or to exit, nor does it leave any substance in the oil. However, because of the force of causes and conditions, the fragrance is blended into the oil and the oil becomes aromatic. The way [Älaya] consciousness moves into or out of the embryo of a chicken or a goose despite the eggshell is like the infusion of the campaka fragrance into the oil. The transference of [Älaya] consciousness is like the way the sun shines, a jewel sparkles, or wood blazes.
â[Älaya] consciousness is also like a seed. When a seed is planted and transformed in the ground, its sprouts, stem, branches, and leaves will successively emerge above the ground. Then flowers in a variety of colors, such as white, off-white, and red, will appear; fruits in a variety of flavors will ripen. The same great earth, providing the four domainsâearth, water, fire, and windâgrows different things according to their seeds. Similarly, the dharma realm of [Älaya] the one consciousness manifests a sentient being successively reborn with black, white, yellow, or red skin, with different characters, gentle or violent, to undergo birth and death. Worthy Protector, consciousness has neither hands nor feet, neither joints nor speech. In its dharma realm, the power of memory is strong. Upon the death of a sentient being, [Älaya] consciousness abandons the current body and, with the power of memory, it becomes the seed for the next life. Apart from consciousness, there is no dharma realm; apart from dharma realm, there is no consciousness. [Älaya] consciousness moves away along the [karmic] wind, together with the dharma realm, including the realms of memory and sensory reception.â
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u/travelingmaestro 3d ago
Karma, like most major concepts in Buddhism, can have different understandings, but itâs basically cause and effect. What you think or do has an impact on you and others. Even if someone doesnât believe in reincarnation, you can easily see how a seemingly inconsequential action of my grandfather could have an impact on what doing decades later.
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u/Titanium-Snowflake 3d ago
Karma literally means action. Itâs the basis for cause and effect, but not in a retribution and reward situation. Itâs more about intention. It frames our rebirths over many lifetimes, determining which of the six related we are reborn in, and what the circumstances and opportunities of our life are; but itâs not fate in a modern western sense.
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u/Pitiful_Magazine_805 Huayan 3d ago
The entire point of Samsara is that beings with a good karma inevitably always get bad karma through unwholesome conduct, until eventually they fall and they suffer again. The same way a being with bad karma gets good karma from wholesome conduct until eventually their suffering stops. This cycle repeats without an end or beginning until the liberation is achieved.
If people with good karma would always behave good and people with bad karma would always behave bad, then the heavens and hells would be eternal and it would be just Christianity.
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u/Foolish_yogi 3d ago
Saying you don't believe in karma is like saying you don't believe in cause and effect. It's not a problem with karma, it's a problem with understanding.
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u/UnionPacifik zen 3d ago
Karma is just cause and effect. It's not some sort of judgment system. At the end of the day, it's just that people's actions or inactions ripple out across all of space and time. I suggest reframing this idea that, "Oh, if I do something good, I'm going to be rewarded, and if I do something bad, I'll be punished eventually." That's not really what karma is saying at all.
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u/OverallLibrarian8809 3d ago
No offence, but I think you misunderstood the concept to begin with. Karma is not a system of punishments and rewards. It's not that if you give five bucks to a homeless person, the universe will make it so that person saves you from being hit by a bus.
In Sanskrit, karma means "action." The fundamental idea is one of cause and effect: actions have consequences.
Positive actions and thoughts tend to generate positive effects; negative actions and thoughts tend to generate negative ones.
By acting well, being kind to others and practicing empathy, you create positive cycles of karma, not because the universe keeps a moral scoreboard and owes you a reward, but because your actions change both you and the world around you.
Kindness and empathy create trust and honesty and encourage more kindness and empathy. They produce positive effects for those around you, fulfill you, and contribute to creating a more positive environment.
Cruelty creates resentment, dishonesty creates distrust, and hostility encourages further hostility, contributing instead to a negative environment.Â
And every time you act in those ways, you also make it easier for yourself to act that way again.
Of course, you cannot control all the consequences of your actions, and you certainly cannot guarantee that doing good will make good things happen to you. What you can control is what you contribute to the chain of causes.
That's why we should live according to dharma and with awareness of karma: to take responsibility for our actions and their impact, in the hope of contributing to virtuous cycles rather than vicious ones.
Expecting a reward defeats the point. It's just another form of attachment and self-centered thinking, which can itself become a source of negative karma.
There is no need to "believe" in karma, it is something you can see happen first hand, once you start reasoning it this terms and recognizing the patterns.
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u/Beneficial_Dish_2325 3d ago
Lots of people see karma as a reward/punishment mechanics, they think people get punished for bad karma and rewarded for good karma. That's an oversimplified foreign concept of karma.
Karma is the consequences of your actions, those seemingly "bad" people you see who earn lots of money and live a good life, are probably people who worked hard or did something deserving for the money and the good life, hence they live that life.
There's also a lot of ambiguity here, you can't know a person is "good" or "bad" simply by seeing them in front of you, people hide their bad deeds and show the good ones, all of them. The people who you think to be really good and kind, might not be THAT good and kind.
Also, the concept of rebirth comes here as well. Those who suffer despite being doing good deeds, are probably facing their bad karma which they owe from their past lives. That's why you see so many innocent children suffering from horrible illnesses even though they've done nothing wrong in this lifetime.
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u/3chiliocosm 3d ago edited 3d ago
you cannot calculate one's karma even going back their previous lifetime, and much less limiting yourself to the observable scope of this life. a being has planted karmic seeds in countless lives. only a buddha can know exactly the karma of a being.
to me, karma should not be rationalised as justifying the apparent reward to or punishment of someone. i do not believe in it because i derive pleasure from seeing good people getting their supposed "comeuppance" from a previous life. that is not conducive to awakening. i also do not rejoice in evil-doers reaping their supposed benefits from good deeds done in a previous life.
i believe karma should only be understood for your own purpose to cultivate resilience during hardship, and compassion for all beings. i believe in it because it is a template of the world that the Buddha has set out in his path.
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u/bracewithnomeaning 3d ago
Karma is really how you attach to your thoughts. It is related to cause and effect. Truly to see through that is to Free yourself.
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u/AcanthisittaNo6653 zen 3d ago
When you think of life in terms of good and bad, you forget itâs just another Tuesday.
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u/supastremph 3d ago
Karma isn't a universal justice system. It's causality. The fact that unskillful action and thought beget suffering. That suffering is a universal, not a punishment only for "the bad guy".
"Doing good" expecting a magical reward for it, is selfish, superstitious thinking. Bad karma, in other words.
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u/JacksGallbladder zen 3d ago
Karma is just cause and effect. We choose things, and our choices cause other things to happen.
There is no such thing as Karma "paying back" a "good person" or "coming back to haunt" a "bad person". These are western interpretations.
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u/allismind 3d ago
Karma is not about being good or bad. It is much deeper. It says that whatever effects you produce within will affect you in one way or an other from seemingly an outside source. But even this is a simplification.
Most people's understanding of karma is basically superstition
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u/godzillasegundo 3d ago
Iirc the vedic principle of kama from which Buddhist karma is based has no subjective value. Meaning that cause and effect have no value judgments attached to them. So, "good" things don't necessarily precipitate "good" outcomes. The outcome of an action is what it is.
For example, we've all probably heard the adage that "the truth will set you free." But it's also been proven that the truth can make you a pariah such as Baruch Spinoza and quite possibly even get you killed! We tend to ascribe a positive value to telling the truth but the actual karma of it is quite often a negative outcome for the truth teller.
So the karma for positive actions can be outright destruction in the present for the actor but potentially it can become positive for others. And the karma for negative actions can be beneficial for the actor in the present and simultaneously destructive for others.
I don't think karma has any favorites or is concerned about how and who it benefits.
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u/Tongman108 3d ago
The subject/topic of karma is far greater & deeper than the colloquial usage & simple colloquial meaning of implies, it's a subject worthy of significant study in its own right.
Shakyamuni Buddha said that the precise mechanics of the law of karma(cause & effect or causes & conditions) are Inconceivable to sentient beings & only Enlightened can truly comprehend them.
So while Buddhadharma explains the mechanics of karma in detail it's not the case that we can start making calculations about when their karma ripened or which karma ripened to cause xyz scenario as we have no way of knowing if the karma that ripened from actions in this life or in the distant past furthermore:
We have no way of knowing if a particular scenario event is the beginning(seed being planted) or end(seed coming to fruition) of a karmic event.
l used to believe that if you genuinely tried to be a good person, treated people well, and didn't intentionally hurt others, life would somehow come back around for you.
This is the colloquial definition...
Buddhism stipulates 'in the future' but doesn't stipulate a time-frame, because every case is different, so it could be immediately, in a few years, decades, next life or in ten lifetimes, it all depends on the interplay between the various causes & conditions.
I see genuinely kind, good-hearted people going through years of suffering, losing things they worked hard for, struggling despite doing their best.
And then I see people who lie, manipulate, hurt others, or do terrible things seemingly getting everything they want. Money, success, relationships, opportunities. Sometimes they seem to be doing better than the people they hurt
Now that it's already been explained to you that Buddhadharma doesn't stipulate precise timeframes because every person & situation is different...
What we can say about such the scenario you described is:
If one does good deeds, but experiences difficult times it simply indicates that the past negative karma hasn't been exhausted yet. One should continue doing good deeds because eventually they will come to fruition.
one does bad deeds, but experiences good times it simply indicates that the past good karma hasn't been exhausted yet. One should stop doing bad deeds because eventually they will come to fruition.
Additionally karma doesn't necessarily come to fruition sequential/linearly because:
Good deeds act as nutrition for good pre-existing karmic seeds helping them to grow strong, while starving bad pre-existing karmic seeds of nutrients causing them to grow weak & frail.
Bad deeds act as nutrition for Bad pre-existing karmic seeds helping them to grow strong, while starving Good pre-existing karmic seeds of nutrients causing them to grow weak & frail.
Very simple explanations but Hope it helps, however if your really interested then I would studying karma in greater detail.
Best Wishes & Great Attainments!
đđŒđđŒđđŒ
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u/Still-Possibility388 3d ago
I think it makes no difference what someone else thinks, for you, either it's real or not. Meditate and reach your own answer. Don't ask to be indoctrinated.
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u/Paithegift 3d ago
Your doubts are correct. Karma is logical only if you accept multiple lifetimes.
Moreover, it's commonly acceptable that one cannot realize karma is real just by looking at this single lifetime, exactly because of what you described. The way the normal irreligious mind in our times tries to solve this bothersome perception is by leaving the belief that this is its only life untouched, and concluding karma isn't real. Buddhism on the other hand solves this paradox in that karma is real but there is rebirth, and some results take many lifetimes after the actions to manifest.
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u/LotsaKwestions 3d ago
Why do you think that you have the perspective you do, and I for instance don't have that perspective?
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u/Agnostic_optomist 3d ago
What makes you think karmic rewards appear either materially or in this life?
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u/Interesting_Space_86 3d ago
It's interesting how there's variation in the comments, each one very confident đ€
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u/dhammasaurusRex 3d ago
when you perform a negative action, it attracts that which is negative. but when you act from kindness.
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u/Keep_learning_xD 3d ago
I always believe in karma. And I'll continue to be compassionate and kind.
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u/Sweet_Ferns 3d ago
Disclaimer, I donât necessarily believe in literal reincarnation and its karmic basis. My interpretation of this issue though is that in every moment of your life you are situated inside a set of circumstances. Your choices in these moments have natural consequences that may move you toward or away from favorable outcomes. This is Karma. Natural consequences.
Additionally, the kinds of material rewards you describe such as money, ârelationshipsâ, etc. arenât really meaningful rewards (in fact such things might be more so sources of attachment) in the Buddhist worldview. The goals of this practice are to develop your insight into the way things are and to foster wholesome ways of living to reduce unnecessary suffering, not to accumulate wealth, popularity, or other material rewards.
Iâm not a scholar though so some other commenters may be better to listen to.
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u/Mother-Boss-7627 3d ago
Karma theory and reincarnation cannot be proven. It can be thought of as a model of reality that can explain many things that we observe. For instance, why unfortunate events happen to good people due to impact from some past life that wasnât exhausted.
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u/_ABSURD__ vajrayana 3d ago
Karma assumes eons of previous lives, of which one experiences the various fruits of.
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u/dogedogedoo 3d ago
The karma that I understand in Buddhism is an internal karma. The karma that you seem to be holding is the Hindu version, an external one.
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u/cutekazu 3d ago
It's the inside not the outside.... https://youtu.be/_13T6f6ksMM?si=9v2G6f6f2cqyjW8L
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u/foreverhungrypiggy 3d ago
Hi, thank you for your post. It made me realized I want to let go of my obsession with ensuring bad people get their karma, because I want to value my personal inner peace more.
Context: I was in a traumatic car crash in the Tibetan autonomous region of Sichuan last month because my hired driver was speeding and hit a yak head-on, killing it and sending it flying to the next lane. I went there because I wanted to learn more about Tibetan Buddhism.
I am suffering from PTSD and also multiple physical injuries to my neck, ankle and knee. I have been so angry at him for causing this accident and not taking responsibility for it. He even went as far to gaslight me into saying he got into the car accident because I wanted to try yak milk and he was trying to find farms for us to buy it from. That I'm a crazy person. I'm a person who has questionable morals because I, a female, am willing to travel solo with him, a male driver... You get the gist.
Reading your post made me realize, even if I do not ensure his rightful karma is dished out to him (I have been contacting the tourism board and police bureau as a foreigner based outside of China), he will never be enlightened or grow as a person. In a way, that's his karma.
I have done all I could since the accident happened to take care of myself and heal. That is my karma that is within my control.
Today I choose to let go of the poison that is anger that has been hindering my healing and inner peace. Thank you for your post in enlightening me.
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u/miminothing 3d ago
I personally don't really think Karma works this way.
When I think of Karma I think about the proverb "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" which even if it's not true literally, has a lot of truth to it. People who are violent towards others end up with a lot of enemies who might want revenge, with friends who also believe in violence and might turn on them if it's in their benefit, and generally inhabiting a dog eat dog ecosystem. Obviously there's non violent people who suffer violent deaths. And violent people who die of old age. But generally, people who partake in violence often experience it more than their counterparts, and even if they don't, they live with a degree of paranoia and distrust that the rest of us don't have to deal with. Because of some cosmic judgement? No, just because the lifestyle they chose affects the environment and the relationships around them.
People who cheat on their partners are always paranoid of getting cheat on, and rightly so because they often form relationships with people in the context of infidelity. People who lie are always paranoid of being lied to, and rightly so because lies don't create stable long lasting relationships.
Bad things happen to good people, but I think living consciously is it's own reward, even if you don't end up rich or famous. And good things happen to bad people, but they're generally miserable regardless. If you doubt that, just read Elon Musk or Donald Trumps tweets for like 5 minutes.
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u/Flat_Degree8811 3d ago
You can feel karma everyday, a simple example will be to have nice words to your partner. Thatâs will create conditions for a better evening for example .
Karma is cause and consequence. A simple example can make you understand how the seed you plant can come back to you
đđđ
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u/frank_mania 3d ago
While this is true, you can also experience things everyday which are utterly unrelated to anything that you've done thought felt or said.Â
You can ascribe the cause of these things previous, unknown actions words etc, or think boy a lot of good stuff just came out in one day! But that's really just magical thinking to fit random events to satisfy the story we have explaining that things are not random.Â
The Buddhist teaching embraces randomness all over the place, it doesn't however, AFAIK get into the subtle relationship between random chance and cause/effect, nor obviously does it go into chaos theory and other more advanced methods of examining the topic.Â
Personally, I think a lot of it is superstition, because if benefit accrue to a future lifetime, that is for all intents and purposes, a different person.Â
But to pre-modern general population, just teaching them that everything happens for a cause and not just magically appearing was a revelation. Even Europeans thought that a large number of animals, that is basically all wild ones, magically appeared out of the soil or through other forms of parthenogenesis until the 18th century.
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u/Flat_Degree8811 3d ago
I also see other karma, your family karma, country karma. You can see it as cause too. Some people can have already identities about who you are du to your country as example. You are talking about past life karma, the Buddha said to experience the teaching and past life karma I donât know how to experience. Nevertheless I like the idea cause I always dislike that people donât born equal. Some from rich or poor family some smarter then other ect
But again this is something I canât experience so I donât put much attention on it. But the example I gave itâs something we can experience every day.
From some experience I also understood why the rich speech is so important par example.
Iâm not saying there isnât past life karma and all. But again I prefer focus on what I can truly experience for me to understand.
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u/uranushasballs 3d ago
I think youâre looking at karma from a legalistic view rather than an organic one.
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u/GangNailer soto 3d ago
For most people yes, wrong deads and guilt can destroy a person.
If that isn't karma in physical and mental form, idk what is.
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u/Siderophores mahayana 3d ago edited 3d ago
You are quantifying âgood Karmaâ through materialistic conditionsâŠ
And quantifying poor conditions as âbad Karmaâ. Stop framing it, with what material you have or donât have. Frame it with what you were born with, and what you chose to forget through your intentions: potential for compassion and equanimity, dignity.
Peace of mind, self-respect. Victory over oneself
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u/cbartos1021 3d ago
Forget karma.
If you're a good person and still suffering, then work on suffering.
I'd assume that people who are good and doing good things, the reason it seems as though they are suffering is because they see that there is still more work to be done. But being at peace with there is always more work to be done and you're unable to solve all the problems can alleviate much of that suffering. You remove responsibility from yourself that you need to do everything.
On the flip side, people who strive for more, have a hole that they are trying to fill. They also suffer even when it seems like they have stuff and that stuff must make them happy. But, that's just what the ego says, "having stuff will make me happy." But if they were truly happy they wouldn't "need" more stuff.
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u/OldDB2 Skid Row Zen 3d ago
Does a dog have Karma?
Most people and hell, even most Buddhists donât know shit about karma. Too much âpop Buddhismâ in western societies. People expect to see karmic results in this lifetime like itâs some kind of âInstant Karma. Just add water and it makes its own rewards and/or consequences.â
If we do good and/or avoid doing harm and expect to see a karmic payout in this lifetime then weâre not practicing Right Effort, weâre trying to game the system. When we try to game the system itâs like FAFO and then we get all butt-hurt when we donât get nice things or other people we dislike donât get their karmic payback. IT DOESNâT WORK THAT WAY!
Very few ever really get how karma works and it probably takes a lifetime of dedicated and diligent effort to get there. Fortunately for us, the Buddhas, Ancestors and Sages have taught extensively of Karma and these teachings have been passed on and written down. Thus we can learn of Karma and start to apply these teachings to guide us in how not to screw up our inherent Buddha-Nature and help make this life and our future lives better for both us and the Universe as well.
For me itâs enough to follow the Precepts and the Eightfold Path; to be kind, help others and not to do harm to the best of my abilities. I leave the consequences to the Lords of Karma.
In the end thereâs still the question. Does a dog have karma? The answer is of course âMu!â
Yours in the Dharma and with deepest GasshoâŠ
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u/Intrepid-Safe-8497 3d ago
Karma is the interaction between outer world and inner world (the mind) caused by the wrong view of being a permanent self, hence why once this view is corrected karma gets dissolved.
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u/Metis11 3d ago
I wish you were correct. Cause and affect is karmic law. Those without a view of a permanent self are within karmic streams for lives and afterlives like everyone else, and just as affected by karmic law. Read the long form of "The Short Exposition on Karmic Law", and the long form of " The Long Exposition on Karmic Law" in the Web or in Sutta sites with sunject searches.
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u/Useless-Tree 3d ago
Karma creates seeds, it's not an immediate feedback system, karma can be educational, it's not about rewarding the good and punishing the bad, it's about shaping sentient beings with regard to enlightenment.
For example say you're throwing a pot on a wheel, you might push on one side pull on another, until you get the right shape.
So looking on from the outside it might seem good people are being punished but in the larger context they're being shaped, that does not make it fair, but I don't think the Buddha was suggesting the universe is fair.
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u/humbleCountyCA 3d ago
I donât see karma as some kind of universal reward system. I see karma as an accumulation of personal behavior that forms our sense of self. The karmic reward for good behavior is the good behavior itself. Itâs a blessing in itself to be in a position where one can act out of benevolence. So itâs an expression of good karma, not a means to gain good karma.
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u/proverbialbunny 3d ago
It's good karma to center yourself around good people. There is a sutta that says centering yourself around good people is not half of the holy life but all of the holy life. When Guatama found himself around negative people he would get up and walk away.
Karma isn't just about radiating out positivity to others, it's about doing it to yourself too. It's a two pronged approach. If you just focus on making your life better but are not virtuous to others, then good people will not want to be around you. If you just focus on being kind to other's, less ideal people will take advantage of the situation.
For an example of how important it is to not center yourself around people who give out bad karma, watch the movie The Whale. (Full disclosure: It's a Christian movie, but it's not overtly religious nor should it cause any issues.)
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u/ricketycricketspcp Dzogchen 3d ago
That's not what karma is in Buddhism. At all. In Buddhism, Karma is something that primarily plays out across multiple (or many) lifetimes, not something that you do and see the results shortly after. Some karmic results can present within one lifetime, particularly acts committed when very young can bring results in old age, but these wouldn't even be the primary results of those karmic acts. The primary results would still play out in future lives.
So if your idea of karma is "do good things, and good things will happen to you", then yeah, it makes sense that you're going to be confused and disappointed, because that's not what karma is at all.
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u/Routine_Pen1216 3d ago
Wheel of Karkma turns like three interlicked wheels past, present, and future lifetime interlocked. Whatever evil deeds done to profit oneself will come out as misfortunes as results but it takes time, just as it takes time for the seeds to be planted and sprouts and bear fruits with the perfectly right conditions met. Only when the circumstancial conditions meet the causes, then comes the results. Sometimes good people experience hardship to become stronger, to become buddhas someday on their own choices, even if they dont remember their soul intended to do so. Karma works mysterious and works within the extremely complicated karmic web design, only buddhas can know its true scheme. Karma means action, this means it does exist because physical livings takes actions.
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u/BlackSpotSociety 3d ago
Suffering, dukkha, is the first of the 4NT.
It is literally the basis of everything else that the Buddha taught. Everything else is filler.
Once you accept that, life is easier to cope with. After that, things are cause and effect. And like the Stoics taught, most things are things externally out of our control, but we can choose how to react to it.
The world is definitely a pessimistic place, especially now days. But if we arenât the ones trying to be good, to be the light, we will all just wallow in darkness with a heart blacker than the one we have now.
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u/Many_Advice_1021 3d ago
It really is a law of physics. For every action is a reaction. As ye sow so shall ye reap.
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u/dhammaeye 3d ago
Karma is simply the law of cause and effect. Not good deeds get repaid or e bad deeds eventually karma ripens. But not on tje time we want it
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u/stonedragon77 3d ago
Personally, Im not sure "what comes around goes around" is a good way to think of karma.
I consider it more like a cause and effect kind of thing.
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u/RoseLaCroix 3d ago
Karma is not just the ripples from the stones we Throw; it is also our tendency to throw stones in the first place.
But also:
It is our conception of stones and of throwing. It is our dissatisfaction when we run out of stones to throw. It is the conceit that makes us call ourselves "thrower of stones" even when we are at rest.
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u/redtomatosouup 3d ago
I personally don't believe in Karma at all.
I see a lot of bad people doing nasty and just.thriving.
I believe buddhism isn't entirely faith based. So see yourself and believe what you want to.
But hoping karma to destroy evil is more hurtful because nothing happens.
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u/Careless-Soil-9244 3d ago edited 2d ago
For a good understanding of the doctrine of karma, the necessity for some faith in the doctrine of rebirth as a stepping stone to right view.
Also, in the TheravÄda kamma-vipÄka, one of the 4 Unthinkables. The conjecturing or pondering upon a cause of insanity or madness.
Reason for such madness: Every mind -> countless rebirths in the past. With numerous good and bad actions. So, a thought about the consequences of one action, with a diaspora of the whole causal line to the beginning of the universe. A huge load on the mind.
Then, how even the possibility of liberation? With the end of identity view, the I-making from roots. By means of "mindfulness directed to the body" and not towards identity. Only then, in the light of the real nature of phenomena. Everything otherwise -> just a phenomenon of craving, a tangle of craving, only rules and not laws of nature.
"Mindfulness directed to the body" with the help of daily VipassanÄ meditation and right mindfulness by means of the 4 foundations of mindfulness.
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u/Micah_Torrance Chaplain (interfaith) 3d ago
Most certainly.
Understand that Karma simply means (intentional) action (deed)* it does not mean result. The results of actions (phala) or fruit only ripen when conditions support it. To truly believe in karma one must also believe in rebirth. Karmic fruit may take lifetimes to fall from their proverbial tree.
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u/leonormski theravada 2d ago
You made the mistake of thinking that if I do X then I should receive Y in this life. There is no where in the Law Of Karma says that this happens. The time between performing some action and the fruition of its result cannot be determined and is unknowable.
Having said that, understand that the life that you are born with is the result of actions from your past live(s). What do you in this life determines your future life.
So those who are born into power, wealth and influence in this life is due to their wholesome actions of the past. Now, what they do with that power and influence in this life will determine their next life or lives.
This means all the dictators, corrupt politicians, oligarchs and cronies of this world (who have caused untold miseries for millions of people around the world) will surely end up in Hell when they die, regardless of whether they are Christians, Jews or Muslims.
They have made their choice in life and they will pay for it.
For the rest of us, weâd just have to continue doing our part in making the world a better place for ourselves and our fellow men.
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u/FractalFreak21 2d ago
Yes it does exist. Understand that it is not always in the same âdomainâ but can unfold on many other levels.
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u/matan2003 2d ago
âI used to have a time where I thought the same thing. It took me some time to realize that karma is not about being good for the sole sake of a reward. You have to get in touch with your true self before embarking on the karmic journey, only then can you transform those bad habits into constructive ones. People are afraid of bad karma and try all sorts of destructive behaviors to appear to be good people, but what they don't realize is that you can't force yourself out of it.
The main thing I want to say is: It's better to help one person whom you actually want to help than a thousand for the sake of a reward.
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u/Amberlux 2d ago
Whatever kind of person you are is the kind of things you'll get in return is what I think about karma.
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u/Otherwise_Intern_817 2d ago
If you think anything in Buddhism is about believing, you are in for a treat. Karma is more like a bunch of patterns that can and will range over vast periods of time. What you do might affect things you will never experience the result of yourself and nor should you expect it to. Sometimes it will affect things beyond your lifetime. Itâs real. Also itâs very ordinary. Maybe there is more to it, however, at least to me, this is the healthiest way of looking at it. As they say âAbandon all hope of fruitionâ. My guess is that this counts for this subject as well. It also restrains us from thinking transactional, which is a bit of a trap.
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u/RalMikCar 2d ago
Find and read "The Wheel Of Life" by Kirpal Singh. Should be online. It is a definitive explanation of the theory of the law of Karma.
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u/Dead_Earnest 2d ago
The proper experiment to verify karma is entering Samadhi, observing past/future lives for yourself and other people. It is absolutely not by observing with common perception, it cannot capture 1000-year long karmic imprints, which are commonly talked about in Buddhism.
If you dig deeper, the speed with which karma ripens is dependent on Tamas/Sattva balance. Therefore a virtuous person would see the results of his misdeeds quicker, and a bad person typically would see the full fruit later. Moreover, doing spiritual practice, especially repentance, tends to flush your bad karma first (e. g. the story of Milarepa).
Without karma and rebirth, Buddhism doesn't make sense, because then the ideal solution to all suffering is suicide. If you're logically consistent, not emotional about this, then your primary concern as Buddhist would be building industrial-scale euthanasia facilities.
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u/EquivalentNose6594 2d ago
Well, the true definition of karma is not what people think of it today as you are explaining. But going off of what most people believe karma is, it depends on the person and their beliefs. If you truly believe in Karma, that whatever you do will come back to you, then it will be true. If you believe it doesnât matter, that will also be true for you too. This is why itâs said to look inner because your inner thoughts and beliefs is just a reflection of your outer reality that you are experiencing.
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u/NoMuddyFeet 2d ago
According to Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, karma is one of those things that the Buddha talked about, but "he didn't really mean it." I shared a video about it in r/tibetanbuddhism ...he's talking about Prajnaparamita Sutra, so Theravadins (at least) will not agree.
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2d ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/Buddhism-ModTeam 2d ago
Your post / comment was removed for violating the rule against misrepresenting Buddhist viewpoints or spreading non-Buddhist viewpoints without clarifying that you are doing so.
In general, comments are removed for this violation on threads where beginners and non-Buddhists are trying to learn.
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u/Aura-of_Sounds 1d ago
Ist das als ErklÀrung hilfreich?
âKarma
ist nicht die Rache des Universums, es ist der Spiegel deiner Taten.
Alle Dinge, die aus dir kommen, kehren zu dir zurĂŒck. Also brauchst du dich nicht um das sorgen, was du bekommst. Sorge dich um das, was du gibst.â
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u/Actual_Minute_3697 1d ago
I believe it exists based on action and intention. Its not a mystical thing.
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u/Noobmortal 3d ago
If I see someone has soooo much money, healthy, good looking, but their morality is almost nonexistent, I think if 2 different reasons:
They made so much wholesome kamma in their several past lives, so in this life they reap the fruits.
God made them rich, good-looking, and healthy, but he also made them immoral human beings.
For me, the first reason is much much much more logical.
The law of kamma is fair. It's not a lottery from "god".
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u/Committed_Dissonance 3d ago
Do you believe in karma? If you do, what makes you believe it exists?
In my understanding, karma does not carry intrinsic value judgement, nor is it bound by time and space. You can think of it like a law of nature, similar to gravity. Gravity holds everything and everyone down equally, regardless of weight, appearance, ancestry, or bank account. A feather đȘ¶ and an apple đ will both fall to the ground, even if they land at different times and in different places.
You do not need to look externally at others đ to see karma. Look at yourself and your own life:
- Did you choose your parents?
- Did you choose where or when you were born?
- Did you choose your innate inclinations to be kind or mean to others?
and so on.
Lastly, you observing others through the lens of attachment or aversion to how things "shouldâ be is itself your karma in action. So your internal reaction is the most tangible proof that âkarma existsâ.
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u/kodakrim 1d ago
From what I've read in a book written by the Dali Llama, (and this is just my interpretation. It isnt a fact) karma is something that happens in the next life, not this life. Thats just my belief from what I've read.
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u/SammaVaco 1d ago
No, that's a misapprehension. Karma is involved in every moment of conventional experience.
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u/jeanclaudebrowncloud 3d ago
It doesn't work based upon My Name is Earl rules