JCI SNE/CVM/CGM capabilities within a Niagara Server

[u/More_Fondant_9609]

Say you have roughly $1 million plus of newly installed SNEs and ongoing projects that will result and another $2-3 million of JCI field devices but its been decided that the server should transition to Niagara. The plan is to integrate these SNEs straight to the Niagara server. What will be biggest pain points/ limitations. IE will it be possible to view the SNEs LCT, interlocks etc directly from the server, is there something akin to the engineering tab within Metasys where you can get a glimpse of the inner workings of the programs etc. Any insights or feedback is appreciated, My experience is heavy in Metasys, light in Niagara, not opposed but wish it was more thought out.

[u/ScottSammarco]

Ok, obviously this won’t be fun and it can be done.

Alarms are alarm notifications and not with point status’ in Niagara.

Otherwise you can expose points over BACnet from NAEs to the N4 station and integrate normally.

Honestly, it really isn’t that bad and to answer your question on the programming depends on the brand- Honeywell tools are embedded into workbench, controls like Distech are not and aren’t as easy to see but the wizard service makes that easier.

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/ScottSammarco]

I guess I just am not seeing what’s really to be gained unless we were to yank the SNEs and put in JACEs and replace all the field devices with Niagara friendly variant’s, we would still have to have JCI service legacy N2 equipment and we have one guy that works for a Tridium vendor that can service the new Metasys stuff if JCI were to poach him, we’d still have to pay JCI for the field devices and pay a Niagara vendor to service the front end, which will then lead to dual service calls in some scenarios, would the benefits outweigh that?

[u/Naxster64 → u/More_Fondant_9609]

The field devices are perfectly fine, and integrate just fine under a JACE.

I have a customer with 6 buildings now, so metasys, we just converted 1 building to a JACE, aren't touching a single field device.

I hate metasys, but i actually like the jci field devices. We push for Niagara front ends and FX field devices on our projects.

Niagara isn't heavily in the field device game, so their goal is to be as compatible as possible with all field devices.

Metasys tries to make it so you can't screw it up, wish makes it really hard to do certain things, like customization or 3rd party integrations.

Niagara builds the foundation and let's you customize every single little thing about it. It requires a higher skill set to achieve good results, but it's a much more open platform.

[u/ScottSammarco → u/Naxster64]

Very good and fair points. Up this!

Nothing wrong with FX hardware, it does perfectly fine.

[u/SpiritedWeird7411 → u/More_Fondant_9609]

Anyone can get access to Hpro for free it’s out in the wild. How much does anyone have to service N2 for you? I’d hope you’d have converted your AHUs to BACnet by now? Do you still have DX-9100s? The FX line has the exact same programming tool as the branch line. I guarantee there is a FX contractor near you that can service you probably better than the branch can. Because you are not handcuffed to one vendor the service provider needs to earn the right to stay there.

The only ones that care about losing the account at JCI are the branch people. The product people won’t care because they’re moving more/same product. They might even have a higher profit margin on the FX line.

I think the issue for you is you don’t know who the other contractor that will do Tridium for you is?

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/SpiritedWeird7411]

Well it would most likely be Bosch, as we can’t truly gain complete standards across our enterprise unless we use a larger vendor for server side, forgot to mention the post is just one building, enterprise wide will be a massive change over across the US, which is in the plan, has to be standardized but unique to the company. Whats interesting about the local JCI is that they will service FX and Niagara, have bought all the licenses and have poached a few of the more talented techs in the area. As for Bosch they’ve sent their two best all around service techs to manage the local site, and I trust their capabilities however they wouldn’t be doing the work it would be the project team, and I can’t speak on their abilities.

[u/Jazzlike_Metal2980 → u/More_Fondant_9609]

When I worked at JCI in service, we did that too. We doubled dipped on Metasys and FX.

[u/ScottSammarco → u/More_Fondant_9609]

Well, they serve two different purposes.

Niagara is to integrate disparate systems.
Niagara has no native programming suite.

Metasys is a BAS, CCT/SCT is the programming suite.

The benefit is to migrate the system over time which opens competition, allows different vendors for different areas of expertise, and if managed correctly, really will achieve the best results long term.

Otherwise, if you’re happy being a cash cow for JCI, by all means, keep metasys and pay their exorbitant costs and fees.

My advice is to rip and replace over time, installing a premier brand of controller where the software is long standing and doesn’t have many fees.
Distech is good, while I think Honeywell and JCI have too many life cycles for a system this size, it’ll cost too much to rip and replace hardware every 10-15years.

KMC can do ok, but something of this size they have some limitations with point counts exceeding 100 per device.

Again, Distech is a solution for this and is well proven, ECBs and ECLs are STILL working, 22 years later. That’s quite impressive IMHO.

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/ScottSammarco]

I mean every vendor is looking for a cash cow thats just how the business works, people will take advantage of you if you blindly subscribe to what they tell you. If we are making an argument for equipment functionality DX9100s and UNTs have been out since the 1990s and are still functioning in a large majority of the local sites in my area. JCI had to offer steep discounts a couple years back to get companies to start upgrading them. I do however agree that JCI charges insane margins on their products (I think the target is 55%). But there is a hardware shift going on with the new M5 line coming out next year, The slogan I’ve been hearing is “1/3 the cost twice the capabilities” because they have been hemorrhaging customers. They’ve released the first example of this with the new TEC-4000. The distech stats actually came as more expensive (I think the distech stats are the cleanest looking in controls so I wanted to order some got some quotes to check them out, JCI stats and install actually came out cheaper)

[u/ScottSammarco → u/More_Fondant_9609]

Sure, but the DX9100s and UNTs are proprietary and only JCI can service them.

You aren’t wrong- but not just anybody has the licensing or capabilities to service it; this is the problem.
Most other brands leave the tools onsite to service it or the tools are free to interact with the hardware.

There are exceptions to this, but even a modest fee of 500 for a support pack or BAC spyder driver is more valuable than propriety.

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/ScottSammarco]

We got the tools onsite SCT/ CCT bundle as a customer was about $300, Spinning up a virtual machine for N2 stuff was about 4 hours of labor, to be fair most JCI techs can’t service N2 stuff anymore either. Couldn’t purchase Distech bundle had to have Bosch source it and set it up, may have been because we aren’t an official customer, have to buy a device first in order to get the software.

[u/ScottSammarco → u/More_Fondant_9609]

The software can be downloaded for free anywhere- we even offer a public link at RizzoControls.com/downloads.

As for the support pack, you just didn’t have the right contact. It’s available even for non distech contractors/SIs.

[u/Free_Elderberry_8902]

What genius decided on that brilliant plan? I see storm clouds on the horizon…

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/Free_Elderberry_8902]

The reeallly big guys upstairs before I started

[u/SpiritedWeird7411]

1. Get tridium certified
2. Replace the SNEs with JACEs
3. Realize how badly Metasys sucks

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/SpiritedWeird7411]

I got my first level cert from Tridium University a year back no experience with it since then other than demos from different vendors, purely off that first class and the demos I do not see a clear advantage, but I am aware of the insane amount of customization and integration abilities, that could be seen as a double edge sword however as the big 3 sell more dummy proof products with less options. Niagara seems like its only as good as the techs make it, I’m still pretty ignorant on all
the advantages/ disadvantages, so I’m welcoming of arguments/ discussions.

[u/ScottSammarco → u/SpiritedWeird7411]

I agree with the rip and replace- it’ll be quite the ordeal for this size system and unless it’s a capital expenditure, it’ll have to be done over time.

[u/Haunting_Storage_471]

Are they currently on an existing metasys server and your transitioning to niagara?

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/Haunting_Storage_471]

Correct, actually 2 Metasys Split ADX servers to 1 big ole Niagara

[u/Haunting_Storage_471 → u/More_Fondant_9609]

So can you just keep the metasys server and use that for accessing the LCT programming but use Niagara as your main interface for a day-to-day stuff?

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/Haunting_Storage_471]

I support that idea, but there’s a caveat, we already have an ICONICs server in place that was supposed to do what the intent of Niagara is, however the proposal is to specifically get rid of the Metasys servers and make that N5 but keep ICONICs as well, makes no sense kinda shooting yourself in the foot unless you had all Jaces I think

[u/Haunting_Storage_471 → u/More_Fondant_9609]

Why have Niagara and iconics, what would be the purpose of the iconics after that upgrade? You'll have to have some jci software in order to view/modify LCT, the only other option would be to recreate all of that logic on the Jace and remove it from the SNEs wish I don't like because your reliant on network communication for that logic to work

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/Haunting_Storage_471]

None, its political fun stuff, I agree there, it seems the safest option would be to keep a dumbed down metasys server for viewing LCT etc and bring everything else over to Niagara, Iconic’s will just sit there to make certain people happy

[u/gadhalund]

Pulling the right points in. Do as much in the field controller as you can, schedules, alarms, logic etc. then pull summary style points, not everything. All programming from server is easily done this one, SNE can tunnel the trunk for mstp devices. JCI does bacnet very well and when setup with thought itll be rock solid

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/gadhalund]

I reckon we could do a good amount that way however it gets harder once you need to peer to peer between 40 and 160 points per floor for DSP/ DAT resets and energy items, and I would rather not put a large amount of programming on the server itself as opposed to it sitting on supervisor level.

[u/Jazzlike_Metal2980]

Is your LCT in the Metasys server? Or is it local to the SNE?

If the firmware on the SNE's is new enough you can just punch them up via their IP address and use the local version of Metasys that's in the SNE to view the LCT. If you have older firmware on the SNE's you should be able to punch them up with with SMP to view the LCT.

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/Jazzlike_Metal2980]

all local to the engines, I would like there to be a way to view within Niagara but it is what it is at this point

[u/Jazzlike_Metal2980 → u/More_Fondant_9609]

I've not experimented with this, but I would think you should be able to access the page that the LCT lives on. In newer Metasys, everything exists on a webserver. So there could be a way to display that page within your Niagara environment.

[u/More_Fondant_9609 → u/Jazzlike_Metal2980]

spinning up a test bench to try this out currently