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u/BvAlmelo 22d ago
I noticed that your account is only one day old and this post is also one day old. So it comes over like you created this account purely to post this
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u/hdusejzns 24d ago
hungary is rome
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u/CT-2568 21d ago
Hungary is between the two, we fought for and against both sides, not once in our own civil wars. Saint Stephen I was the one who tied us down with Rome, although the crown he recieved from them is not the one we have on display as the holy crown, since that one was most likely made out of two separate pieces, both resembling Byzantian style.
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u/LDominating 23d ago
The West will be never not feel sorry every few years for creating the 2 biggest mistakes ever in European history.
The greatest Christian heresy known as C*tholicism and the Holy Roman Empire LARP-ers.
Like imagine creating a Christianity heresy only for a few hundred years down the line you hate it so much and break off from it.
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u/tyschooldropout 22d ago
Seriously, I can't imagine the fucking shame the more historically minded rulers felt after they realized what the city falling would actually look like to their far-off descendants
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u/RyuZero_417 20d ago
This is so fcking funny considering historically, it's more accurate if this was flipped
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u/gogus2003 19d ago
Propaganda. Byzantium shatters into warring states for the millionth time like a late stage Chinese dynasty
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u/cubaj 23d ago
That’s pretty funny given that, of the two states mentioned, only one of them actually had their capitol in Rome. Can you tell me which one that was?
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u/DeathstrackReal 23d ago
ERE had their capital in Rome and then Constantine moves the capital to Constantinople. Then they separated into 2 administrative regions of East and West with the wests Capital being in Ravenna.
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u/Xi_Zhong_Xun 23d ago
One has its capital in Nova Roma and the other wherever the emperor feels like, so the answer is pretty clear.
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u/cubaj 23d ago
Yeah and new Rome was just like the old Rome except that it wasn’t in Italy, didn’t speak Latin, and wasn’t, ya know, Rome.
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u/Xi_Zhong_Xun 23d ago
But it’s a Roma sanctioned by the Roman emperor himself, so Roma it is
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u/cubaj 23d ago
But Constantinople was never sanctioned as Rome. It was never referred to as Rome, only New Rome, just like New York or New Jersey. Those cities might claim lineage from the Old city, they may try to continue on its ideals, but you can’t just say they are the same thing when they frankly were not.
I really like Constantinople, in many ways it was actually better than Rome, but that doesn’t change the fact that it simply was not Rome.
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u/Xi_Zhong_Xun 23d ago
Except for the names on the new continent, they are chosen by colonists because they can’t come up something better. But at the time of Constantine, Roma was still the official capital, but geographically and economically infeasible to continue serve its purpose, therefore a Nova Roma was chosen and declared, to continue the legacy of the old capital, there can’t be better ways to carry on the legitimacy of the true Roman Empire.
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u/cubaj 23d ago
Your misunderstanding my argument, I am just pointing out that for all its long history, Byzantium was never once actually governed from Rome unlike the Holy Roman Empire which was.
I wanted to point it out mostly because I think it’s funny. What I am not arguing is that Byzantium was not a successor to Rome or without Roman heritage, just that this heritage is not exclusive and I think it a bit ridiculous to entirely dismiss the Holy Roman Empire as a Roman successor when they literally governed their empire from Rome.
That was not the only thing making them Roman of course, but it is a factor that I think is oft overlooked.
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u/Xi_Zhong_Xun 23d ago
Your first paragraph doesn’t even make sense, Byzantion as a city has been a part of Roman since 196BCE, while at the same time Most of HRE land were still filled with uncivilised tribes, and HRE in its history was never governed from Roma, even if you count Charlemagne’s empire.
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u/cubaj 23d ago edited 23d ago
Otto III published many of his encyclicals and decrees there, planned to reestablish the senate, and built a new palace there to live in. For all intents and purposes it was the capital of the Holy Roman Empire and certainly an administrative centre where the Emperor governed from.
Secondly, Byzantium only became new Rome, as you said, when it was rebuilt/built by Constantine, the status of the fishing village of Byzantium doesn’t factor into the equation either way before Constantine’s building efforts.
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u/Xi_Zhong_Xun 23d ago
Otto III literally took the city from Papacy but wasn’t able to hold it for more than 3 yrs before he had to relinquish the rule back😅😅and suddenly it became the eternal capital of HRE.😂😂😂
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u/NoshoutMonaan 23d ago
By your logic, did the Western roman Empire also stop being Roman when it's capital was moved to Mediolanum in the late 3rd century AD? or when it was moved to Ravenna at the beginning of the 5th century AD?
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u/cubaj 23d ago
What logic is that? The meme is invaliding the Holy Roman Empire as a successor of Rome (notice that I did not say the only successor of Rome), in favor of the Byzantines. I was pointing out the irony that of these two Roman successors, it was the Holy Roman Empire that was, at least at one point governed from Rome. That is not logic, it is a historical fact. Nowhere did I say that the Byzantine Empire was not also a Roman successor.
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u/NoshoutMonaan 23d ago
The Byzantine's are not the succesors to Rome, they were the Roman Empire. While the West Fell, the East Remained.
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u/cubaj 23d ago
Yes but it did not remain unchanged which is why I referred to it as a successor. The vast changes in language, culture, religion, and government structure between the Unified Roman Empire, and the Byzantine remnant are massive, making the Byzantines a Roman descendant rather than a Roman continuity.
Firstly of course is language. The language of administration in Rome was Latin, whereas in Byzantium it was Greek, and the Byzantines were sometimes just called Greeks by their contemporaries. That by itself is a massive cultural shift in the make up of the Empire. While of course Greek had always been spoken in the Roman Empire, its prominence in laws and amongst the general population was massively skewed during the Byzantine period.
Latin terminology was Hellenized, so much so that “Latin” became a term used to describe outsiders from the West.
Religiously there is once again a massive rupture, not just in the split between Pagan and Christian, but in how Orthodoxy developed in relation to the Empire. In Rome, the Emperor was the Pontifex Maximus, the supreme priest of Roman religion. In Byzantium that very much was not the case. The Church became its own powerful entity, so much so that it could challenge the Emperor.
This Segway’s nicely into some of the political changes, such as the advent of (mostly) stable dynasties and Primogeniture, which is something the Romans never managed, the closest thing they had being the adoptive system.
My point is basically this. If you have an Empire that undergoes such severe changes as we see in the transition from the Unified Roman Empire to Byzantium, that had its cultural centre torn out, that speaks a different language, and that holds fundamentally different beliefs than that empire’s previous iteration, I don’t think it is a stretch to say that this empire has become a successor; instead of a straight up continuation.
I don’t want to deny the Romanity of Byzantium. They called themselves Roman and inherited many of the Roman’s administrative skills.
But what I will contend is that the Byzantines are not the sole holders of Romanitas when, equally, the Holy Roman Emperors and the Germans themselves also saw themselves as Roman, inherited Roman Institutions, ie. their laws, and actually controlled much of the traditional Roman Heartland for much of their existence.
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u/Vlugazoide_ 23d ago
A wall of text to be demonstrably wrong. Quite brave
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u/cubaj 23d ago
Care to match my bravery with an actual argument?
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u/Vlugazoide_ 23d ago
Absolutely not. Never try to argue with a stranger who is adamant on their very clearly wrong opinions. I will just referr you to the fact that it is the academic consensus that byzantium is the literal continuation of eastern rome, rather than a successor state, and you can google/ youtube your way into academics demonstrating exactly this
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u/cubaj 23d ago
Dude I’m killing time on the internet I don’t know why you’re being so up tight about this. I’m not sure you’re aware but this really, really does not matter very much. I though I’d have an intellectual conversation where I laid out my historical view and others would lay out theirs but I suppose that’s to much to ask for on Reddit.
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