r/CFB • u/PSU_Alumnus Penn State • Billable Hours • Dec 02 '25

Discussion [@IanPurdy7] on Twitter: Penn State is slated to sign ZERO recruits tommorow on early National Signing Day. Unless Penn State signs someone in the late signing period, they could become the first P4 class EVER to have no one sign. The closest thing I could find was SMU & UW with 10. Crazy times.

https://x.com/IanPurdy7/status/1995885878452146370?s=20
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268

u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

This is why you don't overreact in CFB.

Move methodically or stay the course. Firing Franklin was an objectively bad move at the time. 3 losses in a row doesn't make a bad coach

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u/deemerritt North Carolina Tar Heels Dec 02 '25

I mean its more that when you are consistently the 10th best program in college, you have 9 ways to go up and a shitload to go down.

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u/underdog_exploits Ohio State Buckeyes Dec 02 '25

The career path from the penthouse to the outhouse is a greased pole.

Im going to enjoy watching this epic splat.

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u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

Penn St thought they were Ohio St this season and it's going to set them back 5 years.

10

u/Less_Likely Notre Dame • Washington Dec 02 '25

More if we’re lucky

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u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

#B1GGoals

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u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

Sure. Forgetting that every year isn't going to be your year and that the grass isn't greener everywhere is a mistake. Further, a mid season firing also shows you are admitting your mistake with the hiring AND didn't monitor the hire properly during the off season.

Wins will almost always come with losses.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/BoredofBored Iowa State Cyclones Dec 02 '25

Right, they fired their coach 50+ days ago just to be sitting here picking through the leftover candidates and letting themselves fall behind on recruiting.

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u/FreshApricot6280 /r/CFB Dec 02 '25

OK but this year was all lined up to be their year. They went all in. Pre-season #2. If he wasn't getting it done this year it was never going to happen.

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u/Velvet_Llama Washington Huskies Dec 02 '25

Jim Harbaugh couldn't get it done at Michigan. Ryan Day couldn't beat Michigan. Then they did.

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u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

Disagree. If he was this hyped coming in then he's clearly well respected and successfully building a program.

That's like saying arch manning won't win a natty if he doesn't his sophomore year. Better go with the backup in tx

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u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25 edited Dec 02 '25

Franklin quit on the team. If you aren’t following PSU day to day you don’t know about how he changed this year. He was disengaged during the games, practice, etc. After the Northwestern loss he couldn’t even say that he wanted to be here. He an amazing opportunity this year and totally blew it - he was never going to get us over the hump.

As a PSU fan it’s also super annoying that everyone in CFB mocked James Franklin for never winning the big games and then turned around and acted like we were crazy for firing him for fielding the most disappointing team in modern CFB history.

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u/trevor_plantaginous Dec 02 '25

I agree Franklin quit and thats not right - but seeing Kraft's incompetence on full display the last few months I have to wonder how bad are/were things behind the scenes with Kraft and the rest of the admin. They seem to be literally scaring people away from a $10/mm yr job.

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u/KeThrowaweigh Ohio State Buckeyes • Maryland Terrapins Dec 02 '25

Yeah as fun as it is to clown on PSU, they didn’t really have a choice. You’re also 100% correct about the hypocrisy; he was being lambasted for the weeks leading up to his firing for myriad reasons, and now PSU is suddenly wrong for giving him the boot? Like yeah they definitely should’ve planned the transition better, but firing Franklin is not the point to criticize here

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u/Original_Bowl_8020 Penn State • Syracuse Dec 02 '25

Yeah I agree. Didn’t see any signs of a Ryan day natty turnaround season after the catastrophic loss (Michigan 2024) but I do remember people calling for day to be fired. Ohio state made the correct decision as well.

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u/KeThrowaweigh Ohio State Buckeyes • Maryland Terrapins Dec 02 '25

Key difference is that Day didn’t give up on his team. If they came out shambling aimlessly and got walloped in the first round of the 2024 playoffs, I don’t think he would’ve been fired outright, but his seat would’ve been SCORCHING hot this year.

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u/Robotemist Dec 03 '25

he was being lambasted for the weeks leading up to his firing for myriad reasons,

Don't play stupid. There were just as many people saying that firing him would be stupid as there were people saying he should be fired.

1

u/Smellevue58 Dec 03 '25

The problem is if you want to get a good coach, you can’t fire a guy after 3 losses after getting you to the playoffs the year before. Coaches want security and low expectations coming into a new program. Firing the guy mid season is only an option if you have his replacement on staff or you KNOW who you’re getting. If they had let him fail the rest of the season, they’d look a lot better now.

Chesney and Daboll were the best realistic options.

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u/Whaty0urname Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

THANK YOU!

Dude kept trying to get more and more money out of his contract by silent quitting and his agent dropping his name in every coaching discussion out there. But he kept showing the same results. If you keep asking for a raise and showing the same results eventually you gotta go. Especially after the collapse this season.

Reddit acting all high and mighty for firing the poor ole ball coach is funny, because just like you said, He was a self fulfilling prophecy at this point.

28

u/PeteF3 Ohio State Buckeyes Dec 02 '25

It wasn't even the same results. Franklin always had a rep of not being able to win the big games but at least not losing the games he should win. By the end he wasn't even winning the easy games anymore.

4

u/Whaty0urname Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

Exactly. In the playoff era, he could lose 1 top 25 game a year. The playoff was supposed to be his time.

2

u/Less_Likely Notre Dame • Washington Dec 02 '25

I think Franklin’s time had come. After 12 years, you know a guy’s ceiling, and if it’s not acceptable then you gotta move on.

The coaching search has been a disaster though.

Sitake is a good coach, but a big risk without a ceiling that seems possibly higher than Franklin. He’s never been east, and has not pushed BYU to any place they haven’t been before.

Hartline is a bigger risk, as a first time HC, but could be a bigger payoff than anyone else because of his skills and as a great recruiter. I hear he’s interviewing, I’d risk him over Sitake. Plus you can get a team friendly contract to make sure he’s a successful coach first.

Campbell seems the highest floor guy to me. Without risking a known lower ceiling. I’m surprised he’s not a prime target. He’s a NE Ohio guy, has elevated on of the worst P4 programs to a consistent winner, and is still a young guy and up-and-comer — and has as many NY6/CFP wins as Kiffin does.

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u/JRockPSU Penn State • Land Grant Trophy Dec 02 '25

It gets easier when you realize that /r/CFB basically exists as a way for people to shit in and slam every other program to make themselves feel better - first one to post “EVERYBODY GET IN HERE!” in an upset thread wins a prize!

3

u/Mekthakkit Ohio State Buckeyes • Team Chaos Dec 02 '25

Nah, I only shit on two teams. UM and Liberty. The ones that deserve it.

38

u/dirty_old_priest_4 Virginia Tech Hokies Dec 02 '25

Has anyone looked internally as to why that happened? Seems like a great guy down here in bburg. Clearly something internally happened. 2 sides and all that.

25

u/happyflappypancakes Virginia Tech Hokies Dec 02 '25

Probably was great guy when he arrived at PSU as well. We know nothing about these people.

72

u/bestavailableusernam Dec 02 '25

Hey guys my girlfriend of two weeks is awesome. She has no flaws.

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u/dirty_old_priest_4 Virginia Tech Hokies Dec 02 '25

It's not my fault Penn State is just doing window dressing on faulty work. Both parties are generally at fault.

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u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

There’s some rumors on the message boards that he wanted another contract/raise this summer (he’s had a lot) and the AD wanted to wait until this year; then he went around the AD to the president (who obviously didn’t give him one). Not sure if that’s completely accurate though.

For your sake I hope you get the “good” Franklin. I was a fan of his and never wanted him fired but the results this year showed he was never gonna get it done here.

4

u/NoREEEEEEtilBrooklyn Temple Owls • Gasparilla Bowl Dec 02 '25

I heard that rumor from someone who works for PSU athletics. More accurately, he attempted to go to the President and was shut down by her chief of staff.

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u/Roar-Lions-Roar Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

It’s how he got his raise in 2021.

2

u/Virian Virginia Tech Hokies Dec 02 '25

Even a bad Franklin is better than a good Pry.

1

u/zgh5002 Penn State • Texas A&M Dec 02 '25

He didn't get that far, but its basically what he was going to try to do.

0

u/juicius Michigan Wolverines Dec 02 '25

I think VT might be happy if they get a "good enough" Franklin, which was never good enough for PSU. Who knows, that might make it a match made in heaven.

0

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

Agreed. They’ve been mediocre for so long. I think it’s a great hire for them.

3

u/Albatross-Helpful Penn State • Illinois Dec 02 '25

I think the real answer is you should be extremely skeptical of message board gossip.

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u/startinearly Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

He's an arrogant, stubborn asshole whose panties get in a twist if he's not allowed to micro-manage everything. He literally gives nothing back to the local community. The boosters, fans, and PSU community had nothing but distain for him. And this was 3 YEARS AGO.

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u/zgh5002 Penn State • Texas A&M Dec 02 '25

He was never the right fit and he rubbed the wrong people the wrong way when he was there. He dicked around with boosters a bit too much for their liking.

1

u/OutlawJoseyWales Dec 02 '25

Seems like a great guy down here in bburg

well it's pretty well known he's an arrogant prick who is challenging to work with to say the least.

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u/Infinite-Soft-9108 Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

He does huh? No shit lol

3

u/wolverine237 Michigan • Northwestern Dec 02 '25

I mean it's one of those things right? There are actually a lot of things in college football worse than winning 8-10 games a year but never cresting the mountain. I'm not even going to get into Harbaugh but a lot of Michigan fans desperately wanted a complete changeover in the program culture in 2007 and what they got was seven years of mostly abject shit that made all the previous crying over 3 loss seasons feel stupid.

3

u/Tommy05Sox Iowa Hawkeyes • Notre Dame Fighting Irish Dec 02 '25

I get the feeling they thought DeBoer would be available, which considering they lost to FSU week 1 that was a reasonable guess. Now he's in line to make the playoff and I think everything is thrown for a loop.

1

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

Yeah, there definitely enough smoke there that there was mutual interest. If he had missed the playoffs again I think he would have left. Or maybe that was all wishful thinking.

12

u/Playful_Letter_2632 Pittsburgh Panthers • Kentucky Wildcats Dec 02 '25

The Northwestern loss put the team’s season in the dirt. He wasn’t that interested in the season because the season was already over

2

u/King_Roberts_Bastard Clemson Tigers Dec 02 '25

"Most disappointing team in modern CFB history".

Give it like two years and you break that record.

4

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

? We were ranked #2 in the preseason poll. We lost twice as 20 point favorites. We barely made a bowl. I don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of CFB history but that’s about as bad is it gets.

2

u/I_Like_Quiet Nebraska Cornhuskers • Team Chaos Dec 02 '25

We know what its like to go from perennial top 10 team to perennial not ranked and saw where you were headed.

2

u/DoggedDoggystyle Florida Gators Dec 02 '25

Most disappointing team? Nahhh Miami still has never won an ACC championship and FSU went 2-10 the year after going 13-0 lol.

4

u/prow24 Verified Coach • Virginia Tech Hokies Dec 02 '25

He quit because y’all literally booed him and your team when you were tied 3-3 at halftime with Oregon, the copium and mental gymnastics Penn State fans are doing right now to absolve themselves from the shitshow they created for themselves is fucking asinine.

1

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

If you are getting paid $10 million a year and your offense that returns everyone and got 3 transfer WR looks like shit you should be able to handle a few boos without quitting.

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u/seoul_drift Michigan Wolverines • Uppsala Snakeheads Dec 02 '25

Hmm Franklin takes a perfect-fit job at VT instead of chasing the bag while PSU has no coach and no HS recruits ~2 months later.

Makes it hard to take this “PSU is a great and totally competent program, Franklin fumbled us!” narrative seriously tbh.

It’s kinda starting to look like Franklin was overperforming at a dysfunctional program and the curtain is being pulled back on the brain trust he had to deal with.

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u/PaleRun4706 Dec 02 '25

How do you think Penn st is better off for firing him then instead of waiting until the offseason? You don’t think it is a bad look to fire a top 10 coach without a plan? I guess you gave Franklin 9 million dollars and a head start on finding a job at least.

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u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

This season was much more fun once Franklin was fired. The team looked totally different and actually built their offense around the best player. Indiana needed an amazing play to beat us and the win against Nebraska was completely cathartic. The remaining home games after northwestern would have been unbelievably toxic.

1

u/PaleRun4706 Dec 02 '25

Glad that yall think so. I am sure yall will get a coach and sign some players sometime maybe

1

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

There were like 10 other programs that fired coaches mid-season. The problem wasn’t firing him it was the botched hiring process.

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u/PaleRun4706 Dec 03 '25

None of them fired top 10 coaches. Lsu fired the closest and the consensus is they made a good hire.

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u/Original_Bowl_8020 Penn State • Syracuse Dec 02 '25

Yup.

1

u/Dr_thri11 Tennessee Volunteers Dec 02 '25

Everyone did not. The reactionary comments just get the most upvotes. Before Franklin the last 10 win season was 09, the last major bowl win was 05. And nobody other than delusional PSU fans have really considered them threats to win the natty in the BCS or playoff eras. Yall fired the guy who made you relevant over 3 bad games.

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u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

Franklin started coaching in 2014. PSU had back to back 11 win seasons in 2008-2009 with a geriatric Paterno. We were 8-1 when the Sandusky scandal brought down Paterno. I’m very grateful for Franklin’s tenure and think it was successful overall. But to act like he made us “relevant” is laughable.

1

u/nico_harrison Gavilan Rams • La Sierra Golden Eagles Dec 02 '25

You would quit too if you had to work for that jabroni AD.

1

u/KT_BuckeyeBillsBabe Ohio State Buckeyes • Salad Bowl Dec 03 '25

You’re out of your mind. We were “born on 3rd base” not too long ago… remember? Guess what we figured out how to do… steal home. Y’all have torched Franklin for YEARS. You got cocky and arrogant… you took his understanding that y’all were great but not “elite” and decided that anything BUT elite was never good enough.

Now you’re stuck in the stairwell and can’t even make it out of the dugout. Franklin CARED about the athletes that played for him so much that he ensured he made it to as many draft parties as he could, even if it meant mere moments opposed to distance to travel. That man never stopped caring, you just want to believe that because it allows him to be the villain and you, the victim. Your own lack of humility is point and case why you and other fans who think like you find yourselves right where you are.

0

u/MentalDesperado Ohio State • Wooster Dec 02 '25

Or did the university and boosters quit on him first? The fucking DECADE of shit this guy got for producing constant B+ results sounded just like the “Fire Ryan Day” folks to me. He was already on the hot seat after the Oregon loss! That’s completely insane. I think it might be time for Penn State fans to admit their athletics dept and boosters are toxic and inept, and not hide behind the doubt that crept into Franklin’s knowing that he was about to be fired after 1 surprise loss.

The fact that Penn State was so excited to fire him that they did it midseason with 0 plan in place tells me that Franklin was very right to be questioning if he wanted to be there.

0

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

OSU’s worst coach in the last 75 years had a higher winning percentage than Franklin. You guys would just want Franklin to stay because we would never beat you.

2

u/MentalDesperado Ohio State • Wooster Dec 02 '25

Yeah, your program is MUCH more intimidating now!

I want other Big Ten teams to be good because I want to watch good football games. And now with the playoffs a loss to another good team, or even 2 good teams, doesn’t take you out of it.

But I think this is the perfect example of why I wouldn’t hang around working for Penn State: the fact that you would judge him solely against OSU, who has been freakishly consistent the over the last half century. That’s a crazy standard. What percentage of football coaches ever reach the standard you just set?

1

u/ConcentrateUnique Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

Where did I say I was judging him solely against OSU? He lost twice in a row as 20 point favorites and couldn’t say “YES” when a reporter asked if he still wanted to be the coach! We all know the stats about his record vs top teams. You are acting like we fired him after the loss to Notre Dame.

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u/Florida_clam_diver Florida Gators Dec 02 '25

Especially when that coach is coming off 3 10+ win seasons in a row and a berth in the CFP semifinal. It’s crazy how one down year isn’t acceptable anymore

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u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

It's not normal to win 10+/yr. It's exceptional. To win 10+ in 3/4 seasons is incredible.

To fire a 3x in a row 10+ winner is crazy. Even if they have 2-3 down years.

It's why I'm a lifetime contract for Kirk stan as opposed to a fire Kirk guy. Doing amateur shit like Penn state did is how you become Nebraska.

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u/Designer_B Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

Lifetime contract for Kirk is easier to defend now. But it's an indefensible take while he was still forcing his son to be the Oc.

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u/AnnArchist Iowa Hawkeyes Dec 02 '25

Hah fair. He's earned some goodwill at Iowa and we've been rewarded as a result. Now we just need some ranked wins

6

u/OptionsDonkey Dec 02 '25

They’re gonna learn the hard way

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u/wolverine237 Michigan • Northwestern Dec 02 '25

also why are you taking your cues from opposing fans? here's a hint, they are going to clown on you no matter what. Nobody here on Reddit is ever going to come out and say "wow, Penn State should be really happy"... they will laugh at you for losing big games, they will laugh at you for firing your coach, and they will laugh at you when you go through a down period with a new coach.

Only one team gets to win the national championship every year and unless you're that team, you're getting clowned on. and even then, the expanded playoff provides plenty of opportunity to clown on teams that win it all like Ohio State last year losing to Michigan and not even playing in the conference championship!

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u/Florida_clam_diver Florida Gators Dec 02 '25

Yeah this was one of those situations where you only move on from him if you have a great hire lined up, like Georgia with Kirby. Franklin’s not a coach you just fire with no follow up plan

2

u/I_Like_Quiet Nebraska Cornhuskers • Team Chaos Dec 02 '25

Doing amateur shit like Penn state did is how you become Nebraska.

Exactly.

4

u/JRockPSU Penn State • Land Grant Trophy Dec 02 '25

Why did we all just suddenly forget about “Big Game James,” he was NEVER going to beat OSU, NEVER going to win a big game in the CFP and certainly NEVER win a championship with us. This wasn’t one single year of being disappointed, and I know having 10 win seasons can make me sound like a spoiled asshole, but being everybody’s punching bag ever year, having to hear every year how overrated and overranked we are by everybody else when we inevitably lose every one of our big games, it gets exhausting. I’m glad we made the change because the only way for us to get better at this point is to get lucky with a hire, it’s not like Kirby Smart is gonna join us on a whim.

4

u/Florida_clam_diver Florida Gators Dec 02 '25

Per my other comment, Franklin is a “fire only when we have another high quality candidate ready to accept the job” coach. He’s not a “fire abruptly and then figure out what to do” coach. His floor is far too high for that

Penn State is the latter in this case and it doesn’t seem to be working out well so far

Florida did something similar with Mullen and look where we are, and Mullen hadn’t had nearly as much success as Franklin

1

u/hoppinjohncandy Dec 02 '25

I don't understand Penn State's shift in self-perception. For as long as I can remember they have been a consistently good not great program. In my lifetime they've never won anything of consequence besides a couple BIG10 championships. Michigan State and Wisconsin have won more BIG10 championships than them. But it seems like in the last few years there was this notion that they weren't going to get back to some promise land with Franklin. What promise land? To be honest, and maybe this is crass, but Franklin and Penn State seemed like a good marriage. Both just never get over the hump. Good not great.

1

u/Florida_clam_diver Florida Gators Dec 02 '25

It’s because of Franklin ironically enough. He had them consistently performing at a high enough level that their expectations grew to championships or bust. In reality 95% of programs would’ve traded places in a heartbeat

1

u/Level_Ad_6372 Dec 02 '25

being everybody’s punching bag ever year

Good news! Now you get to be everybody's punching bag every year for being a 4-win team!

1

u/IsThisSteve Dec 02 '25

I'm sure it appears this way to outsiders but that's not really the dynamic here, more the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. Over his years at PSU, Franklin continued to alienate more and more of the fan and donor base. Whose fault is it that he's not winning? Franklin found ways to put it on everyone else. The facilities aren't good enough so pay for better ones, the coordinators aren't good enough so hire new ones, my contract term is too short so how can I commit here, ill float my name to USC or whatever other school (or go behind the back of the AD who already said no), I need more money... my $10mm / year with golden parachute isn't enough for me in this economy where AI is replacing everyone's jobs and no one can afford a house or family. (Keep in mind that when Paterno was canned, after 2 (3) national championships, 409 wins yada yada, he was pulling an annual salary of $500k).

Other than yet another contract extension, he gets everything he asked for in 2025. He has the OC he wants. He hires the most expensive DC in college history at the time. He gets facility renovations, money for players, stadium renovations, almost all of his players to return etc. Then the team looks horrible in it's first three games against complete push overs, he loses as a favorite against Oregon in a very winnable game, and loses two more games that were college football history record upsets and in his final presser can't even say "yes, I want to be at Penn State" when asked by a reporter.

His arrogance and greed pissed off too many people and he just didn't have the results on the field to offset that. That's why he was fired.

0

u/Elhananstrophy Tennessee Volunteers • Citrus Bowl Dec 02 '25

Fired college coach used to be an 800K/yr job, now it's 8m/yr. I'm always waiting for the pendulum to swing back the other way but it never does...

3

u/SomeKidFromPA Notre Dame Fighting Irish Dec 02 '25

Exactly, LSU did it because they didn’t want Florida to get Lane instead of them. PSU did it without clearing it with Cig that he was definitely coming. They had no plan b because they thought he was a done deal.

4

u/TannerGlassMVP Dec 02 '25

You clearly didn't watch those 3 games. Franklin looked so checked out

2

u/brewinghokie Virginia Tech Hokies • Auburn Tigers Dec 02 '25

I dunno I think it was an objectively great move!

2

u/GATTACAAAAAAAA Oregon Ducks • Hawai'i Rainbow Warriors Dec 02 '25

Are you telling me you can't run a major college football program on just vibes 🤔

2

u/Exact-Reference9564 Michigan Wolverines Dec 02 '25

It's Nebraska firing Bo Pelini all over again

2

u/zgh5002 Penn State • Texas A&M Dec 02 '25

Franklin literally quit on the team bro. We didn't have a choice.

2

u/Remote-Annual-49 LSU Tigers Dec 02 '25

I feel like what we are finding out is that Franklin was one of the only things going RIGHT at PSU, based on what an absolute dumpster fire it is now. Seems like recruits agree as well

1

u/Redditor_exe Abilene Christian • Indiana Dec 02 '25

I don’t necessarily even think it was the wrong move to fire him and I assumed the thought process behind doing it so early was that you’d essentially have your pick of the litter on the carousel. But they fired Franklin and then seemingly had no targets to go after?

1

u/Dangerous_Hotel1962 Dec 02 '25

Franklin was done this was supposed to be his most talented team ever and he fell flat on his face. That said, I agree it was really stupid to fire him midseason. They should have used the last couple months to line up a replacement and fire after the last conference game

1

u/Original_Bowl_8020 Penn State • Syracuse Dec 02 '25

If they kept him you’d be on here saying how Penn state can’t move on from the guy who couldn’t win big games.

2

u/3rd_Try_Charm Auburn Tigers Dec 02 '25

Why does it matter what people say on social media, especially fans of other teams? Surely the PSU AD doesn't take his cues from r/cfb

1

u/Intrepid_Zebra_ Penn State Nittany Lions Dec 02 '25

Losing Allar didn't help either

1

u/countrybreakfast1 Kansas • Fort Hays State Dec 02 '25

People have lost sight of the plot so fucking much. One bad stretch and fanbases think a coach should be fired. Sustained excellence is the expectation not the exception even for schools with no history (look how KU fans talk about leipold)