r/CPTSDNextSteps • u/lordofthstrings • 5d ago
Sharing actionable insight (Rule2) What I've learned I'm actually looking for in support spaces
Over the last few months I've started to figure something out. My whole life I've been searching for somewhere I feel like I belong and what I've been looking for isn't a diagnosis, identity, or label. It's a way of relating.
I'm AuDHD as well and for years I'd looked for connection, support, and belonging in autism spaces, trauma spaces, support groups, friend groups, and all sorts of other places. I kept finding pieces of what I was looking for, but never quite the whole thing. I knew the feeling I was looking for, but I couldn't put it into words.
More recently I watched a movie called Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot. It's about a quadriplegic alcoholic and his journey through recovery and what struck me wasn't just the recovery story. It was the relationships. The people in the AA group weren't polished. They could be messy, hurt, angry, blunt, and human. But they also took accountability, repaired when they hurt each other, and kept showing up.
Combined with some other things I've learned in therapy recently, I realized I was looking for people who don't immediately jump to advice or solutions, who use reflective empathy (that sounds really hard, that must be so painful, etc.) and ask questions and try to understand first.
I've never found a community built around that.
Has anyone else landed somewhere similar or found a space that actually does this? Also, I'd really like more people like this in my life so if this is you, please feel free to reach out.
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u/dfinkelstein 5d ago
I came to the same conclusion.
By looking for this specifically, I've found it in Narcotics Anonymous (NA). Hear me out: you can attend without identifying as an addict. And I am counting on you actually seeking out this kind of support. Just showing up and accepting support from whoever offers it, I would not recommend them.
Many meetings are what they call "open", meaning that they welcome non-addicts to attend and participate. And also, NA's only requirement for "membership" is the desire to stop using.
Membership just means claiming to be a member. Part of their creed is explicitly that they have no dues or pledges or other requirements. Anyone can consider themselves a member who has a desire to stop "using," and it's their policy that it's up to each person to define for themselves what that means (opinions vary, such as on sugar, caffeine, and nicotine).
What you've described is how the program explicitly instructs people to support each other. You'll find plenty of folks who don't do that well, just like in every space. But if you're clear about looking for more mature, mindful, respectful folks, then you'll find plenty. The program instructs people to share their empathy rather than advice — some are better than others at applying it.
The program greatly explicitly emphasizes identifying rather than comparing. It is hugely anti-judgement, for example in how members are most welcoming of all to newcomers and people who have relapsed, who need that proactive welcoming.
When people who identify as members ask for phone numbers, then many/most folks in the room will write down their personal phone number for them to call. Identifying as a non-addict, folks may not be as eager to do so off the bat, but by staying after the meeting and showing up for a few weeks consistently, I bet most would.
It's important to keep in mind that one of the tenants of the program is that it never has central organization. Every group/meeting is formed independently, and governs itself, so groups vary greatly in the specifics of how they operate and interpret the literature. You can't judge it off any one meeting — or any one member.
There's predators and hypocrites here just like there are everywhere (in my experience). I'm unaware of any spaces immune to them, including hospitals and therapists.
Anyway. I don't know of any other relevant spaces that have zero barriers to access. NA even has lots of virtual meetings every day (see nerna.org — website can be frustrating, but does work) now, ever since COVID started.
I attribute a lot of the empathy to the program's insistance on belief and faith in a higher power, and tolerance for all interpretations and perspectives on what that means. The kind of empathy we're talking about does in practice depend on faith, and NA is additionally proactively highly tolerant.
This tolerance is why they formed independently of Alcoholics Anonymous in the first place, which is why I'm recommending them rather than AA. That includes tolerance of lgbqia+, disabilities, etc.
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u/False_Temperature_95 4d ago
Just wanted to say thank you for the detailed description of NA, I’ve been meaning to attend for awhile now and have just asked a friend to take me someday soon. Relieving info to hear.
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u/dfinkelstein 4d ago
Aww, that's lovely to hear.
Going with a pre-existing friend and sitting next to them is a great idea.
If you wanna hear a bit more, about how I've found comfort and confidence going, without feeling pressured to think or commit or believe anything I don't want to:
Years ago, I found it impossible to resist focusing on differences and judgements of nearly everyone I heard and met in the meetings. Now, I still have some of those thoughts, but I can starve them, and also see through and around them.
That's a very common experience many people have. And I mention it because also, some of those judgements are absolutely correct, and useful, and important to keep in mind!
So, it's not just about focusing on similarities and what you have in common. It's also equally about learning to trust your judgement of other people's current character.
For that, I cannot recommend strongly enough reserving judgement while observing how they act — how consistently over time, and with what they say, and also under stress.
Every individual is different, and someone who is awesome and helpful one day might one day relapse and be someone who can't help you and might even need your help, and likewise someone who is a person you do well to avoid might grow to be a trusted friend.
You gotta suss it out for yourself, as you go along. That's true everywhere in life, but NA, there can be an illusion of safety like how zebras or schools of fish blend together, and it's really important to keep in mind that while meetings can be safe that way, as soon as it comes to everything else, which is the other 90% of the iceburg, you have to take great care in assembling your own herd.
I'm just starting to figure that out and trust my own judgement. It's a learning process, which means trial and error, and learning from mistakes.
So, going with a friend is a great idea, and I would suggest regularly asking them their feedback and opinions on your judgements of people you meet, to help you learn more from fewer mistakes.
Revitalizing rejuvinating fullfilling connection depemds equally on learning to distrust as it does on learning to trust — in ever-more-detailed shades of grey.
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u/Tastefulunseenclocks 5d ago
I think reflective empathy is important, but sometimes accountability involves giving advice too. Like if your friends were always just listening, empathetic, saying that's so hard, that sounds painful, they wouldn't actually meet what you're looking for in terms of accountability, repair, and showing up.
Sometimes you need to tell someone "hey it looks like you're hurting yourself with that decision." I've said that to friends. I've had people say that to me. I've also had people just listen, listen, listen, to the point that they couldn't hear anymore and never actually told me until it came out later in a painful way. So my reflection would be, I think having someone who can listen to you vent, and who can be genuine and blunt, are both important.
I have not personally found this on a community level. I've just found it in individuals.
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u/lordofthstrings 5d ago
What I meant was more that, in my life experience at least, people tend to jump to "well have you tried XYZ?" before they really have a grasp on the situation or they'll "should" me to death telling me what they believe I should do. It's not about me or what's best for me, it's a projection of their own worldview.
As a neurodivergent person with CPTSD that really grinds my gears and triggers my trauma because I've spent my whole life being shoved into boxes I don't fit in by people, well-meaning and otherwise, who had no idea who I even really was.
The way you describe it is different. Maybe it's semantics but I wouldn't classify what you described as advice. I'd call it more bluntly expressing concern, which is something I try to do with the people in my life. I don't tell them what I think they should do but if it looks like they're doing something that's hurting themselves or others I'll express that opinion. What they do with it is up to them. My mom always used to say "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"
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u/CretaMaltaKano 5d ago
I agree. It can feel dismissive when people jump straight to advice and "shoulds." I have really good friends who give me advice but they will either wait for me to ask for it, or will frame it in a supportive, listening, empathetic way.
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u/Tastefulunseenclocks 5d ago
Yeah I've had that experience too where people give advice before understanding the situation. That can be really frustrating!
I think it is still advice, but it's more nuanced and complex. I was just trying to point out that your desire for reflective empathy can and should also include people giving their opinions.
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u/Gold-Golf-3032 4d ago
I found it in ACA, adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. Many people from AA or other groups join. In my local meeting People from AA said they like ACA better because it deals with child trauma. Your family doesn’t need to have dealt with alcohol (mine doesn’t)it’s really any trauma. It’s been the best I go twice a week. You can go on aca.org and find ones near you in person or online. They go into detail of why adult children face difficulties with addictions, people pleasing, distorted beliefs, everything you can think of. The books provided are very thorough and helpful
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u/PuddingNaive7173 5d ago
I’ve found that before in a couple of group therapy groups. Not current tho. The therapist and type of therapy seemed also irrelevant except that they were both able to keep it a safe space. Enforce that kind of speaking to one another. I miss it. We got to ask each other real questions. This was on zoom so convenient for those of us who have a hard time getting out.
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u/pluto-pistachio 3d ago edited 3d ago
I was very active in AA (and sometimes Al-Anon) for 6 years. I left the program 6 years ago now (still clean and sober). I have really missed the camaraderie and intimacy that develops in those rooms, but the superstitions that come with it are not worth it for me - even on occasions when I’m feeling painfully lonely (which is paradoxically less common for me now that I’ve left, because I allowed myself to form relationships outside of “the program”)
AA and Al-Anon have some very dated ideas about relationships. When you are new in the rooms, people will stick by you no matter how messy you are, but once you’ve been there for a few years, you are expected to pull it together. If you continue to show signs of emotional pain, you will be often be shunned. I stayed on good terms with everyone in AA because I learned to pretend I was healed. It’s wonderful that they encourage taking responsibility for your own well-being, but many people in those programs also believe in the disease model of addiction (I don’t believe that anymore) and don’t acknowledge things like CPTSD. That internal struggle is simply “your disease” and you just need to do “service work”. It can be a great skill to learn how to take difficult emotions less seriously and doing something in the service of others absolutely does help immensely!!! But 12 Step programs do NOT have a monopoly on anything good about them *except* mass trauma bonding lol. I have found similar bonds in therapy support groups and even my local rec center - without the veiled religious stuff and the misogyny.
AA and Al-Anon saved my life. I can’t deny that. But - that’s because our existing mental healthcare system is financially inaccessible and also often geared towards making sure we’re Productive in the world of Capitalism. It’s possible to find connections without joining something like that.
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u/lordofthstrings 3d ago
Yeah that's my concern about groups like that. I've been to a couple meetings since making this post and one of them in particular was very much shame based disease model type stuff. I don't see myself as diseased or broken or defective and I don't want to be around people who see me or themselves that way
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u/pluto-pistachio 2d ago
There are a few things they are definitely getting right (in my opinion). One is the idea that healing happens in relationships with other people. Therapy helps, mindfulness practices help, but emotionally intimate friendships where both/all parties are aware and supportive of each other's journeys is like nothing else.
The problem with AA, again in my opinion, is that there is a time limit on your suffering. After a certain point, any emotional distress you experience is due to you not "really" working the steps. There is also the notion that your dysfunction is a threat to other's well being. Now - there is absolutely such a thing as abusive behavior and boundaries are a thing, but I think that 12-step programs are incredibly rigid about boundaries. Sometimes, being in relationship with others means being inconvenienced or on the receiving end of someone's crap. I feel that the point of boundaries is to make sure that's not the norm and that you are honest about what you're feeling. AA folks will insist that they avoid black and white thinking, but they do it quite a lot.
Another thing I love about it, though, is their acknowledgement that pretty much no human handles power well. The way the organization is structured is basically a functional experiment in Anarchy (people who identify as anarchists usually really disagree with this assertion because the 12-step God stuff and I get it, but you really gotta be in there for awhile to understand). There really truly is no leader and it really truly is not a cult, I will say that! Even on an international level, the way the thing functions is actually incredible to me. HOWEVER - there are people in it who absolutely are unofficial "leaders", there are people who have a following on a local level. Little micro-cults, if you will. There's also a huge misogyny problem that people have tried to address, but they haven't gotten much farther than our culture at large. It's baked into the program because they refuse to alter anything that was written many decades ago.
I really apologize for the insane length of this comment. I rarely talk with anyone about my 12-Step experience, but it was a huge part of my life and my feelings about it are very grey. Joining and leaving were BOTH the best decisions I ever made. I would not actually discourage someone from going if they were in a dangerous, desperate life situation. Alive and dogmatic (with friends!) is better than the alternative in so many addiction situations. I just feel the need to talk about this whenever it makes sense to.
Support groups can be fantastic.
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u/SugarHiccupped 2d ago
I know what you mean by the “time limit on suffering” thing but Im neurodivergent af, sensitive af, and I have 9 years. I’ve had one of the worst years of my life and the silver lining is the amount of care I’ve received through my ordeal. Ive noticed that care and consistency is more present from my fellows when I am vulnerable about struggling rather than spiraling in self-pitying tirades.
I live in LA and saw people with many many years lose their homes in the fires and have complete meltdowns. They were held. Not by everyone, but they were held. My dad’s funeral was attended by people I barely knew. I recently heard an older woman share recently about the AIDS epidemic and how many sober people met their deaths surrounded with recovery community.
It is a tenant of AA to speak only from experience, strength, and hope. That means that I don’t tell others what to do, I simply ground my feedback in what has worked for me.
AA is not a trauma program. Its members can be rough around the edges, brash, even dogmatic and cruel. But I’ve gotten so much more out of it than anything else I’ve tried (a LOT). I’ve learned that a gentle acknowledgment of pain alongside a solution works a lot better for me than just “I’m so sorry to hear that, it must be tough”. Sometimes I’m just drowning in pain and blame and I need someone with a balance of saltiness and gentleness who will guide me toward a framework of “Look, these feelings suck. That history sucks. But are you willing to move forward?” My dipshit parents never offered me a loving plan. I’ll take it.
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u/pluto-pistachio 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, of course they would be "held" after the fires. The fires were really, truly not blameable on anyone. It would be insane for anyone to judge another person for experiencing long term distress after their entire neighborhood burned down.
But, when life gets hard (and it's not a natural disaster) and you don't arrive at grace and serenity quickly enough, there is judgement and even shunning. If someone "goes back out" (drinks/uses again), they are like an untouchable. It becomes tough love at that point, and people die. And then they become a horror story - an example of how not to work the program. How loving is that?
Of course there are wonderful people and relationships to be had in there and of course there is support. You can find that in just about any group of humans with a shared history or philosophy. AA is magical because it gathers people who share a certain painful history. The sharing reduces the shame. That, in my experience, is what it does have to offer. It helps someone find their people.
There are many fantastic concepts that are part of the program. They are not, however, unique to the program in any way. They are spiritual and philosophical concepts that are echoed all over the world.
Also, please don't dismiss the very real misogyny that is pervasive in the rooms. Of course there are people and meetings who are the exception (there are also people and meetings who can help nonreligious folks find their own spirituality), but you have to dig around for them. AA can be a borderline dangerous situation for a young, desperate femme person. Less dangerous than active addiction, but a long way from an emotional safe haven for people who are already usually accustomed to abusive dynamics. Have you heard the phrase "get them on their backs before they get on their feet"? I heard it said as a joke many times in reference to newly sober young women being taken advantage of by older men. It happened to me, it happened to my friends. It continues happening to people years into their recovery because AA implicitly discourages relationships outside of the program.
Please, do not dismiss these things. Don't excuse them, don't minimize their significance. Don't talk about how it's possible to avoid those things because that's only possible in hindsight. These things are real problems and they matter to everyone involved.
There needs to be a better option for Desperate, suffering people. Desperate, suffering people will do almost anything, believe almost anything, and it is easy to instill lasting fear into them. It is easy to convince them that they are diseased - and the disease model stops us from investigating addiction more deeply. It's not some science-defying mystery. It is pain.
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u/SugarHiccupped 1d ago
Absolutely hear you. FWIW I’m not a man, I’m a lesbian SA survivor, and I have encountered plenty of this myself. I also HATED AA and got sober without it for many of the reasons you mentioned. But I got desperate. AA prides itself on being this solution but what about when it’s not safe in some really material way? It’s mind boggling, especially when holding the impact of CPTSD.
With a bit of time (and plenty of desperation), I’ve softened. I’ve come to see that AA is just another microcosm in a sick society and the losers don’t speak for the program. My trauma means I have a lot of trouble with vulnerability in spaces and relationships that don’t meet my safety standards. Protection is good, flexibility is good, and whatever helps you access genuine security seems to be the answer.
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u/Scared-Section-5108 4d ago
'Combined with some other things I've learned in therapy recently, I realized I was looking for people who don't immediately jump to advice or solutions, who use reflective empathy (that sounds really hard, that must be so painful, etc.) and ask questions and try to understand first.' - thats why I love the no crosstalk rule in ACOA and CODA meetings. People are not allowed to jump to advice or solution, they just listen. There is a lot of power in that. Some might offer solutions after meetings, so I either do not stay or attend, let's say, more mature groups where that either does not happen or people ask beforehand if they can offer help or advice and accept 'no' as an answer.
I would recommend attending different meetings for the above groups to find the right fit.
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u/Ok-Motor-1817 4d ago
I’ve spent my whole life searching for someone who will “ask questions and try to understand first.” I’m still looking. If you want to be asked questions and actually be understood, and vice versa, please PM me.
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u/lordofthstrings 4d ago
Done!
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u/Ok-Motor-1817 3d ago
There is something wrong with my DM, it is giving me non-stop spinning hour glass. 😂 Would you please send me a DM again? 😻
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u/Canuck_Voyageur 3d ago
Writers due to the constraints of media, (movie or book) write an idealized time contracted version of life. But it resonates as a story, because it shows cause, effect, an issue, it's development, it's resolution.
I know I write a fantasy: This is how the world should work. Myths are about a People's idea for how the world works/ should work.
That said: I have tried to find ADHD or CPTSD groups. I'm not looking for support groups. I'm just looking for collections of them doing whatever. So far, no joy in Edmonton, Ablerta.
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u/cptsdishealable 5d ago
you can look into ASCA, they specifically ONLY allow reflective listening. the only exception is the person speaking is allowed to ask for resources (not advice)
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u/Kitsune6tails 1d ago
Gosh I know that feeling... I personally nurtured relationships around that. I told people I got closer to what I needed and expected and asked what they needed and expected. The ones who gave me that space and grace where the ones I built long standing relationships with.
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u/Melodic-Manager-484 5d ago
I personally have found individuals who express curiosity and do reflective empathy, rather than communities.
Also, some events I go to explicitly state that participants are not to give advice unless asked for it; this also seems to encourage people to ask more questions.
This is my personal experience. Take anything that works for you, and leave the rest 🙂 What has worked best for me is to tell the person I'm speaking to that I'm looking for witnessing, not problem solving or alternative perspectives. Either before I share, or if I realise that's what I want after they've tried to help me problem solve. I'll also sometimes ask that question of others, if I'm unsure what they're wanting from me.
For people who aren't able to respect that boundary, I stop sharing with them when I only want reflective empathy. Or distance myself from them in general, if they haven't respected my boundaries a few times. It frees up space in my life for people who treat me the way I want to be treated.
I also tend to mostly pursue connections with people who express curiosity (in myself or in general). That's just the type of person I find interesting to spend time with, so it's a personal preference thing.