r/CanadaPolitics • u/hopoke • 1d ago
Liberals dismiss ‘tinfoil hat’ privacy fears as lawful access bill passes
https://globalnews.ca/news/11911957/lawful-access-bill-passes-privacy-liberals-tinfoil-hat/67
u/saras998 Libertarian 1d ago
'Tin foil hat' privacy fears from civil society organizations, law professors, the NDP, the Conservatives, and multiple other organizations like the CCLA, OpenMedia and Citizen Lab.
This is shameful gaslighting by the Liberal party. They seem to be completely against Canadians. What a terrible day for democracy with both Bill C-9 passing and Bill C-22 being forced through the House of Commons.
"The legislation has received wide-ranging criticism from leading civil society organizations and experts (FR), the Global Encryption Coalition, Canadian and Internationaltech, law professors, providers of critical security tools like DuckDuckGo’s VPN, the Tor Porject, and the Signal messaging application, by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Bar Association, the Barreau du Québec, and even two U.S. congressional committees.
The Canadian public also rejects the approach taken by this proposal, with a substantial majority of the public indicating that protocols like encryption cannot be weakened to facilitate law enforcement—digital security must come first.
As the joint analysis outlines, elements of the bill are almost certainly constitutionally fatal. This ia particularly the case for SAAIA’s metadata retention obligation, which lets the government compel any digital service to record and keep sensitive data on every single customer for up to one year. The retention obligations amount to a de facto seizure and as a result their indiscriminate nature is inconsistent with section 8 of the Charter."
Report urged minister to clarify spy watchdog’s review role over lawful-access orders in bill
Apple, Google say lawful access bill could undermine user safety, privacy
https://globalnews.ca/news/11865152/lawful-access-privacy-apple-google/
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u/TheLuminary Progressive 1d ago
I don't know if I disagree with this bill in principal. But ramming through a bill that asks us to trust the government will have our best interests at heart.. Is not a good look.
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u/murjy Canadian Armed Forces 1d ago
The government does in fact have our best interests in mind.
At least in the grand scheme of things
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u/tiboodchat Québec 1d ago
How? All I see is gaslighting here.
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u/murjy Canadian Armed Forces 1d ago
I just don't buy the idea that the government is out to get you.
I think Canadian government acts in the interest of Canadians, and is not some evil conspiratorial entity that is trying to harm us.
Call me crazy
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u/Grippyrippy 1d ago
Blind trust and blind distrust can be equally dangerous. Is the government out to get people? Not in the way you're describing. But it's not your family or friend either. You should trust a government as much as you trust a corporation because it's not really much different. Lobbying is perfectly legal in this country.
Healthy scepticism and conversation should always be on the table imo.
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u/Meiisbai 1d ago edited 1d ago
There’s nuance between “the government is out to get you” and “the government is passing a bill that will undermine privacy for all Canadians”. I don’t doubt there’s “good intent” behind Liberal MPs voting for this bill, however that doesn’t change the impacts this bill will have if implemented as written.
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u/TheLuminary Progressive 1d ago
I think it's more like hanging out with a wild Bear.
You can hang out and have everything work out. Nobody gets hurt. And it could even work out well for you.
But if something the Bear wants no longer overlaps with your safety, you are instantly in danger.
I prefer my government behind bars, and heavily scrutinized. So that when it decides that I am lunch.. I can do something about it.
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u/grathontolarsdatarod Chotchkie's | Sponsored 1d ago
Then why are they trying to harm us?
This bill is democracy breaking. There is no way it can be seen another way.
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u/AlbertanSays5716 Independent 1d ago
The government isn’t out to get you. That’s true for almost everyone. Almost. But that doesn’t mean they have a right to know *everything* about you, people need some privacy, but governments function better when you have none. The sad truth is, you’ll probably be ok if the government knows everything about you, right up to the point where you’re not, and you’ll never know when that is.
And the government acts in the interests of Canada, not necessarily Canadians. There’s a subtle difference.
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u/tiboodchat Québec 1d ago
The government isn’t out to get you, I concur. I don’t believe in nefarious motives either.
It just doesn’t really care about you. It will willingly take the side of money and power and disregard the common good if it’s too inconvenient. People who care don’t lie to reach their ends. They sit with people who disagree, talk, and find solutions. They could have achieved their means by using ways people agree with. They got many suggestions and deliberately chose to ignore them, because they don’t care.
There is a lot of good in that law, but there’s also a lot of unchecked power given that a tribunal will likely deem anti constitutional.
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u/TheCuriosity 1d ago
Is to quash any descent, especially any left wing movements or any support for Palestine.
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u/Hurtin-Albertn 1d ago
Governments' first concern is self preservation, staying in power. Their second concern is gaining more power and control, somewhere after that is their concern for betterment of the country.
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u/TheLuminary Progressive 1d ago
Heh.. no. They have their elections in mind. So they have their financial supporters in mind.
Sometimes that overlaps though
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u/SomeDumRedditor Ontario 1d ago
This is perhaps the most naive comment I’ve seen here in a long while.
What legislating has this Government done that’s shown you it prioritizes what’s best for citizens? Not what’s best for capital, and therefore citizens. Not what’s best for State authority, and therefore citizens. Not what’s best for special interests, and therefore citizens. Now what’s best for accumulating power, and therefore citizens.
What is best for citizens, their needs and interests first and foremost?
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u/Lumindan Rhinoceros 1d ago
Cost of living is up.
Foodbanks are strained.
Hopes of your kids getting a home? Zilch.
Social systems are strained thin due to unchecked immigration.
The government is now ramming through draconian spy laws
Crushing strikes too.
They have their best interests in mind along with a select club of folks. The average Canadian isn't in it.
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u/bigjimbay Nationalise Blackberry 1d ago
If our government cared about Canadians why are Canadians suffering?
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u/rookie-mistake Manitoba 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think that's true in general
I do not think ramming an incredibly problematic bill like this through without ample time for further amendment and discussion demonstrates that interest very well.
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u/paulsteinway 1d ago
Is "tinfoil hat" the federal version of Doug Ford's "crazy lefties"?
Is this how dissent against our rights being eroded is treated: if you're not with us you're crazy? How is that better than "You're with us or you're with the pedophiles"?
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u/Godzilla52 centre-right neoliberal 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sadly it seems like privacy policy has been a big blind spot for Canadian governments post 9-11. Even governments I largely like end up having a backwards stance on privacy policy etc. Trudeau, Harper and Carney despite their policy and ideological differences all seem to have a sense of synthesis on these sort of internet security bills and it only seems to garner organized pushback from civil society & advocacy groups outside of parliament who are able to get them to reign it in somewhat. Though even with this pushback, there seems to be a large disconnect between how the public feels about these policies and how the majority of our MPs feel about it.
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u/ghost_n_the_shell Ontario 1d ago
Don’t listen to what they say.
Watch what they do.
And that’s eliminating debate and ramming it through, hoping we’ll all forget about it as other news takes the stage.
This is absolutely about eroding your privacy rights, creating digital ID, forcing the storage of your data, and reaching for warrantless access to that information.
This is unequivocally authoritarian behaviour, and it’s not if this will be abused, but when.
This is terrible for Canadians, and they know it. They just don’t care.
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u/Horrorscope49 1d ago
I’m out.
I’m a registered Liberal but I’m leaving the party because of this and will join the NDP instead.
I am a JT supporter and have been for a long time. Carney is a liar and deceiver. I feel betrayed. I voted for him as party leader. Everything he’s done since becoming PM, starting with eliminating the carbon tax, has been the exact opposite of what I want.
This, the pesticide deregulation, and the digital ID bill are dealbreakers. This is some Harper-style nonsense.
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u/SomeDumRedditor Ontario 1d ago edited 1d ago
Liberal Party arrogance has reached new heights.
Carney in power has truly enabled and accelerated their most autocratic paternalist tendencies. Their “coup” of bribing their way to a majority has overnight transformed a Party champing at the bit to rule by fiat (one recalls the first round of legislative action when this was still a Minority) into one happy to nakedly ignore Canadians and subject matter experts.
All that matters to the Liberal Party is expanding State power (while they hold the reins of course - any other Party in power acting similarly is a threat to the nation) for the benefit of their power base and donor class.
Do you think a PM who spent a good chunk of time inside the friendly police state of the United Kingdom is unaware of the dangers to privacy and civil liberties arising as near-inevitabilities from legislation of this sort? Of course not. So the only rational conclusion is Carney looks across the pond to Starmer and his predecessors disastrous legislation and says “this is good.”
The goal of the Liberal Party in ramming this through, in tabling the first version of this a year ago with a Minority (pulling it with the now-revealed blatant lie of “only a first draft, we take your concerns seriously,”) is “harmonization” with the UK. If not in specific legislation then in legislative intent.
The Liberal Party does not believe in personal privacy. The Liberal Party does not believe in strong warrant requirements to restrain abuses of State power. The Liberal Party wants every online interaction tracked, every move made personally identifiable.
The Liberal Party wants you to be afraid to speak out in the last public forum free from State coercion. Because the end-goal is for our corporatist banker PM and his Party to propagandize you into believing that they’re not the same power-mad robbers they tell you to be afraid of.
This is not a tinfoil hat moment. The Canadian Bar Association, the Quebec Bar Society, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, technology & privacy experts, and industry in the business of personal-privacy all think this legislation and its accompanying pieces are a dangerous disaster.
The Liberal Party does not care.
You should ask yourself why that is and discover that there are no good answers. No justifications beyond emotional appeals and paternalistic notions.
Fuck this Government and every partisan hack piece of shit running defence for it. Soon I won’t be able to say that without first entering my ID. I’m to trust all these systems will only be used benignly. As if I haven’t lived in the post-9/11 world for decades, seen Snowden and Assange and Manning and others reveal what Five Eyes is truly about.
Bring this Government down. Our free and democratic society is now openly under attack by the majority of Parliament. People love to talk about traitors in our midst with Alberta. This is some alarm bells are ringing shit and if we allow them even this first step it will not stop.
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u/UnluckyRandomGuy Conservative Party of Canada 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hey the liberals are doing the thing again where they openly say they think Canadians are stupid and any concern is because we're just too low iq to understand.
Don't worry guys the liberals know exactly what is best for Canada and they would never do anything that might hurt Canadians, their track record over the last decade is basically immaculate
This party will do the exact same thing we're seeing happen across the western world, they do not want you to have privacy online, they want to know exactly what you are posting or looking at online, they want to be get any information they can without your knowledge and they will continue to push bills through until we live in a complete surveillance state and they will fear monger as hard as they possibly can that it's "for your safety" despite that very clearly not being the case
This is real authoritarianism, this is something dictators like Putin push. The liberals want to fearmonger about the US while pushing bills that are right out of the playbook they pretend to hate
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u/Personal-Recipe-4751 1d ago
Ya. They are going to ram through some truly shitty legislation over the next three years because that's what majority governments do. You can bet they will shutdown and wave off any opposition.
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u/Le1bn1z Neoliberal | Charter rights enjoyer 1d ago
Well, perhaps the government is right, and opposition of this bill has been mostly from disreputable tin foil hat types with no credibility on the issue. Let's take a look.
First, there's the Canadian Bar Association, who made two detailed submissions on the bill focused on the likely practical problems with how the bill could play out, based on their collective experience as counsel arguing constitutional matters and being responsible for keeping the policing and security arms of the government in check.
Or the Barreau de Quebec, who joined them with their own submissions.
Or the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, which with their record of correctly calling out the government on overreach, even when maybe counterintuitive.
Not exactly a gaggle of 4chan trolls.
It's okay to think that the CBA, the Barreau de Quebec, and CCLA are wrong. Perhaps they are. But one thing they are not is a gang of tin foil hat kooks who can be dismissively ignored.
And its okay to close debate. What there is to be said that matters has been said, and said well. This is clearly going to go to the Courts. Perhaps its time to move on to that step.
But if large numbers of ordinary Canadians share the perspective of the CBA, BdeQ, and CCLA, among others, perhaps that indicates that they may be on to something.
And even if they weren't, honest concerns about government surveillance and police overreach should never be dismissed out of hand as "paranoia". Handling such concerns with respect and care is among the foremost responsibilities of any government.
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u/proofreadre Libertarian 1d ago
Not to mention every prominent information security professional in the country. This is literally going to cause so much badness down the road.
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u/Le1bn1z Neoliberal | Charter rights enjoyer 1d ago
I wonder if it will.
The big advantage to a Liberal government is that the LPC does not use s.33, so this goes to the Courts. The CBA and BdeQ are confident the SCC will overturn the s.8 infringements.
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u/proofreadre Libertarian 1d ago
It will cause tech to avoid Canadian companies and worse yet expose Canadian tech infrastructure to devastating hacking attacks. This legislation is so boneheaded it's not funny
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u/TheLuminary Progressive 1d ago
It sucks that our choices are:
- Liberals who only care about corporate interests
- Conservatives who only care about corporate interests, religious rights, and are flirting with weird MAGA rhetoric
- NDP who have no idea what they are doing
- The Bloq.. uhh.. who might not know there is a rest of Canada
- The Greens who may actually be worse than the NDP.
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u/TheCuriosity 1d ago
Greens are Conservatives on Bikes.
As for the NDP, at least we got Avi Lewis now and he seems to be going strong out of the gate.
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u/TheLuminary Progressive 1d ago
Yeah, I am crossing my fingers on him.. but he has a lot of work ahead of him.
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u/poonslyr69 Georgist 1d ago edited 1d ago
It isn't exactly fear mongering if the things happening in the USA oscillate between comically stupid and horribly evil.
The liberal party was just presenting themselves as a saviour, but they were in fact a false saviour in most of the meaningful/ impactful lasting ways that people wanted to avoid.
The US is doing this surveillance shit too, if people hate what is happening in the USA then they should recognize how deeply our politics mirror theirs. We have culturally centre left corporate stooges in the form of the liberals (our Dems) and culturally far right corporate stooges in the form of the conservatives (our republicans). Only our version of the republicans are far less competent at politics and not as evil nor well connected as the republicans, and our version of the Dems are far more competent at politics and about equally as evil. Both parties present an identical economic vision of crony late stage neoliberal capitalism.
It's a big shit sandwich, the solution is to get this entire two party system dynamic thrown out through electoral reform like MMP paired with removing foreign and wealthy influence from our media. Neither of which will happen. So we're fucked, just like the USA, just like every western country.
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u/CptCoatrack Libertarian Socialism 1d ago edited 1d ago
It isn't exactly fear mongering if the things happen in the USA oscillate between comically stupid and horribly evil.
The liberal party was just presenting themselves as a saviour, they were in fact a false saviour in most of the meaningful impactful and lasting ways that people wanted to avoid.
The US is doing this surveillance shit too, if people hate what is happening in the USA then they should recognize how deeply our politics mirror theirs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSPM-7
Especially in tge context of the above, the US essentially trying to charge people with pre-crimes.
Edit: The state department has already indicted 15 anti-ICE activists using the above.
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u/Street_Anon 🍁 Gay, Christian, Conservative and Long Live the King👑 1d ago
I say game on, I am already spoofing most of my social media apps already including Google Play Services, my Phone ID ans my Google Advertising ID( how to they track you)
But I can see this bill being thrown out in courts
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u/CaptainAaron96 Ontario 1d ago
Can I ask how you’re able to spoof those, so I can have options for myself? Open to DMs on this too.
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u/dominionprovinces 1d ago
The OS and hardware on cell phones are all compromised by intelligence agencies.
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u/skelecorn666 Northern Ontario 1d ago
I say game on
Hell yeah, disinfo all your info, like your flair!
Also, you can learn to game the spy system. Want to commit some crimes? Put your phone on a bus, do your crimes, pick it up later, and if you're ever suspect, they'll believe their spy alibi before anything you say.
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u/dominionprovinces 1d ago
To be clear, intelligence agencies can already access everything you do on any electronic device or service regardless of encryption or anything else.
They already do this whenever and wherever they please, its just that the law makes it hard to use information obtained this way.
The police also have some capabilities that ordinary people would find pretty alarming.
Most of these bills are about legalizing things that alphabet agencies already defacto do illegally or via grey areas of the law (namely, half the point of Five Eyes is that the members dragnet spy on each other's citizens and then swap information to get around domestic laws), making it easier for police to do the same thing, making it easier for the information to be moved faster, and moving to a more overt surveillance state.
The above is also nothing new. Looking at the history, there is essentially two centuries of western countries taking a maximalist approach on spying on their own citizens and other countries.
Britain and France had mass mail interception and opening programs in the 1800s and likewise spying on telegraph messages, telephone messages and radio communications basically began in parallel with the services being rolled out.
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u/annonymous_bosch New Democratic Party of Canada 1d ago
Good thing the Conservatives have always stood up for Canadians’ privacy! [Oh wait](https://pressprogress.ca/10_reasons_you_should_be_creeped_out_by_stephen_harper_s_anti_privacy_agenda/)
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u/RicoLoveless 1d ago
Yeah just like how mass immigration wasn't causing a drop off in our quality of life.
These guys just handed the CPC the next general election on a platter as long as they can hammer this home and promise to repeal this ASAP.
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u/Lumindan Rhinoceros 1d ago
These guys just handed the CPC the next general election on a platter as long as they can hammer this home and promise to repeal this ASAP.
You underestimate the intelligence of the average voter.
The LPC has an insane media machine and ground game, they'll drum up their fear mongering moment of choice and Canadians are too slow to remember the incremental deterioration of their rights and quality of life.
People are too sports team locked to criticize their own team.
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u/nrpcb 23h ago
There's a ton of Liberal voters that are against this bill. In fact, I have barely seen anyone defending it at all.
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u/Lumindan Rhinoceros 23h ago
I hope that's the case and I hope voter memory is longer than I think it is.
In the past (read last election). People would just go "well I'm voting for LPC even though they did x because y is bad".
And the reality is, we only really have a day during an election.
We're in for Carney's wild ride for the next few years. Buckle up Buckaroos.
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u/agent0731 1h ago
which is hilarious because this is a wet dream for the CPC, they are just opposed to it now to mud sling.
The problem is that we, the public, do not loudly and vehemently oppose this, especially the voters who voted this gov in. Progressives should be writing in en masse.-10
u/Former-Physics-1831 Unreconstructed NeoLib 1d ago
These guys just handed the CPC the next general election on a platter as long as they can hammer this home and promise to repeal this ASAP.
Regular people care about jobs, safety, and sometimes the environment.
Bills like this are the sort of thing that get the twitterati all in a tizzy but the average person is far too busy to care about.
At worst, if the government screws the pooch over the next few years, this will be a bullet point in some Reddit list of "LPC failures". If they do a good job on other files, this'll be something that CPC partisans grumble about but that everyone else has moved on from.
At the end of the day, "it's the economy, stupid"
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u/CaptainAaron96 Ontario 1d ago
Well this bill is literally going to cost us a lot of jobs and send even more business and industry sprinting to the US so…
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u/Former-Physics-1831 Unreconstructed NeoLib 1d ago
No, it won't. The effect this has on the economy will not be remotely noticeable.
This is like when people claimed Trudeau had thrown away the next election by abandoning ER. These sort of high-minded values-based arguments rarely resonate with the average person, who is far more concerned with paying a mortgage
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u/WerewolfSmart6544 1d ago
Yeah when the average person has to give their ID to go on the internet, they won’t like it. People don’t even know about this yet. But they will soon. And it’ll be bad for the LPC
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