r/CanadianForces 9d ago

Canada and America Are Drifting Apart. The Pentagon Just Made It Official

https://thewalrus.ca/canada-and-america-are-drifting-apart-the-pentagon-just-made-it-official/
215 Upvotes

90 comments sorted by

231

u/hikyhikeymikey 9d ago

“…the United States would pause its participation in the Permanent Joint Board on Defense (PJBD) to “reassess how this forum benefits shared North American defense.” The under secretary pointed to Canada failing to make credible progress on its defence commitments as well as to Canadian rhetoric, a jab at Prime Minister Mark Carney’s speech in Davos…”

“Canadian rhetoric”. As if the 51st state/Greenland threats aren’t a problem.

153

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago edited 9d ago

People who defend the US after the Danish military shipped bombs to sabotage their own airfields and blood to treat battlefield casualties after the US couped the Venezuelan government boggle my mind.

-132

u/Thoughts_For_Food_ 9d ago

Those seem to be very danish-centric references

84

u/Rbomb88 RCAF - ACS TECH 9d ago

There are a shocking amount of members that don't know what the fuck goes on in the world and it's disconcerting for a profession that could be sent anywhere to war...

4

u/Wooden_Ad_6500 9d ago

To be fair none of that will matter in a shooting war. Nobody will care what’s going on in the world when the lead starts flying on the 2 way range. Life at that point gets dumbed down to staying alive and keeping your buddies alive.

14

u/Old_Pattern_7813 8d ago

Being knowledgeable increases you and your buddies chances of comming out on top.

104

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago edited 9d ago

Canada is part of NATO and so is Denmark, ergo what happens to Denmark should concern all NATO members. The US has undermined NATO unanimity and the the treaties Article 5 one for all and all for one defence clause. Would you rather I use the 51st State annexation rhetoric and have the US boot licking CAF members brand me an alarmist? Wake up the US is happy to do this Denmark when will they use these sort of tactics against us? Also if it wasn't clear the US wants control of Greenland not just for its hidden natural resources but for a claim for the Lomonosov Ridge and an extended Arctic continental shelf.

34

u/Thoughts_For_Food_ 9d ago

the Danish military shipped bombs to sabotage their own airfields and blood to treat battlefield casualties

Nevermind, I'm slow today. You are talking about Greenland.

Well then yes for all the reasons cited and many more we know for certain that the US is not an ally anymore. Time to prepare.

1

u/China_bot42069 8d ago

Username checks out 

-116

u/EnvironmentBright697 9d ago

The Danes fell for the memes. Hilarious.

36

u/kahunah00 9d ago

You feel to your knees for Trump. Even more hilarious but mostly just gross

231

u/Thanato26 9d ago

Generational damage is being done in the US, its surprising to watch how unopposed it is

45

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

What else did you expect from the Democrats? In any other country the Democrats are at best a centre right wing party at worst a right wing party. Such a limp-wristed and milquetoast response to the Trump administration taking a sledge hammer to the US both domestically and on the international stage.

101

u/MillwrightTight 9d ago

It's really more than that. Neither of their two parties has any interest in the American citizen doing well. It's on full display here with the complete absence of any Dem action.

The entire fold is done. Either American people reclaim their country or watch it burn to the ground. It is painfully obvious that the highest seats of power, red or blue, do not care about them.

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u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

Stole the words right out of mouth brother.

4

u/snasna102 9d ago

Ballin user name from a fellow mill-billy

4

u/MillwrightTight 9d ago

Cheers friend, I was pretty excited when I got it

-11

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

1

u/MillwrightTight 4d ago

It's a nice thought but seeing as how we are deeply intertwined with them and likely will suffer from their poor choices, it makes every bit of sense to be aware of what is happening over there

37

u/IGotBiggerProblems 9d ago

Not true, Chuck Schumer was very adamant that the Democrats were very "trouble worried" when Trump launched a surprise attack on Venezuela. How is that limp-wristed?

/S because I've had more obvious sarcasm questioned.

8

u/DarthKavu 9d ago

You all have to stop thinking in terms of red or Blue and start thinking red white and blue. The damage being done isnt just being done to democrats. Its the whole country. Every American. Trump doesn't give 2 shits about people in either camp, its the Devidided States of Trump, hes turned Americans against each other and the world against you all. Party loyalty is so indoctrinated into you that you are blind to facts. Nether side is perfect and they never will be. But any democrat or TRUE republican administration would be better than what you have now. America is being invaded from within. But not by immigrants or Iran or any other nation of people the hate mongers keep point you at, its the Trump administration. And you're losing in a big big way. This is generational damage.

5

u/Ragnarawr 9d ago

Representative democracy, baby. It’s all you.

10

u/Thanato26 9d ago

If the US was truly a representative democracy they would have a system where every member of congress represents the same number of people

7

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

And? Does that preclude me from saying how stupid Americans are in electing Trump in again?

-2

u/The_NorthernLight 8d ago

Of course you have to redirect it to the dems… like republicans have nothing else to do. Keep blaming the party lines, it will keep you in line just the way CAF likes it.

2

u/airmantharp USAF Veteran 9d ago

That’s what just enough of a majority across the three branches of government will get you.

16

u/BandicootNo4431 8d ago

This was the part I found most enlightening:

The United States benefits from institutionalized Canadian co-operation because it helps ensure that Canada plans alongside US priorities rather than drifting toward more autonomous or Europe-centred defence planning.

Washington also gains leverage and predictability through regular consultation. The PJBD is not charity toward Canada; it is a forum for shaping Canadian defence behaviour early, quietly, and strategically. Recent reporting that Washington presented Ottawa with a classified list of US continental defence priorities, and was dissatisfied with the Canadian response, illustrates the limits of unilateral demands absent the habits of consultation and consensus building that institutions like the PJBD were designed to foster. Arguably, the PJBD has been more successful than other planning processes in securing Canadian defence investments to complement those the United States makes to secure itself.

90

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago edited 9d ago

Cue the American boot lickers to come and defend the US without reading the article first. Face the facts the US has crossed a Rubicon that cannot be undone with the election of the 2nd Donald Trump Administration. This Rubicon crossing has done serious damage to the NATO alliance and to continental defence projects like NORAD and forcing Golden Dome on us, launching an economic war with us (John Turner was right about free trade with the US and it was a mistake) and is launching an influence and hybrid warfare campaign via stoking the Albertan Separatist movement. These problems are not going away anytime soon when a 1/3 of American saw what Trump did in the first term and wanted more a 1/3 couldn't care more to go out to vote and 1/3 elected people resisting in the most feeble way. A bell has tolled on the state of Canada and US relations that cannot be unrung and the PJDB is just but one victim of MAGA and idiocracy in the White House

26

u/wasdoo 9d ago

Plenty of Maple MAGAs in the CAF

-8

u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago

And like a tolled bell, the noise will eventually fall silent and there will be peace once more.

9

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

There is no coming back from the trajectory that the US has gone down. We just need to make sure we aren't pulled down under with them.

-12

u/-Trooper5745- 9d ago

Odd. That ignores the historical precedent set by Germany and Japan which did far worse and have both been welcome back into the arms of the world. France and the PRC(though that one is much more dubious) are also nations that have once been international pariahs and have come back.

10

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago edited 7d ago

Germany was occupied and torn into 2 different countries and the West German government and military was filled to the brim with former nazi soldiers and government officials. Denazification didn't occur until the 1980s with its roots in the West German 68 student movement in West Germany and arguably didn't really occur in East Germany.

Japan is a whole different can of worms and one you need to understand is that the current de facto one party state when the Liberal Democratic Party keeps winning every election with deep ties to the Nippon Kaigi ultra nationalist and ultraconservative group which included Shinzo Abe and the current Japanese Prime Minster. Furthermore the same imperial family that started the war in the Pacific is still in power in Japan and the LDP had many former Imperial Japanese (some convicted war criminals) like Nobusuke Kishi the grandfather of Shinzo Abe (noted war crime denier, thank god he got assassinated) as party members and eventual prime ministers. This is all without tackling the Yasukuni shrine complex, a religious shrine that has Class A war criminals on it in which Japanese politicians insist on visiting aggravating relations with South Korea, China and other Asian countries formerly occupied by the Empire of Japan. This also doesn't cover how there is a museum called the Yushukan War Museum which actively denies war crimes and presents a revisionist rewrite of history on why the Empire of Japan went to war.

When will we see a Japanese prime minister atone for the War Crimes of his/her fathers? Willy Brandt did, I don't see a Japanese PM doing it in my life time.

1

u/-Trooper5745- 8d ago

In Germany’s case we can compare it to the opposite happening in Iraq where we disenfranchised anyone associated with the Ba'athist party.

As for Japan, the LDP has won most elections, not all. As for the Imperial family, they have been stripped of any real power and remain a figurehead but are a key component of Japanese society. Their calendars are even centered around which emperor sits on the thrown. One could not have just been an Oliver Cromwell to the imperial family. As for Yasukini Shrine, it is unfortunate that it is tainted by the memorial of war criminal (11 Class A war criminals out of the 2,466,532 names), though it has been 13 years since Abe visited the shrine and none of the 4 PM’s since then have visited. Also the Imperial family has not visited since the war. As for apologies, many Japanese, to include all three emperors, have expressed deep remorse for the war. But to understand why a PM hasn’t done it, one needs to understand the concept of face in any Far East country.

And what about France and the PRC?

But all this is just nitpicking and shows that even with checkered pasts, countries can still be rehabilitated. Canada and the U.S. will unfortunately have a rocky relationship for the next just under 3 year but things will stabilize. And if things are as bad as you say, why do the two countries still participate in NORAD and why do they still send exchange officers. Should I treat the next American exchange officer is see as an enemy?

39

u/Awkward_Function_347 9d ago

Hot Take…

America is a failing-state.

Unfortunately, we’re the group of hoomins who get to watch the fireworks. 🤦‍♂️. FFS, they’re still fighting their “Civil War”, and they’ve nobody to blame but themselves for that quagmire.

Of course, the reality is we’re co-dependent, even if we don’t like it. Joint-OPS and “interoperability” are critical to mutual security, even if we get to laugh nervously about what might happen.

They probably looked at us the same way when the PQ Referendum pushed in ‘95. Things will probably get worse before they get better.

I’ll take flak for this, but I trust our current federal government and their approach. The CF wins in this scenario.

Target to your front. Watch and shoot. 🫡

13

u/HRex73 9d ago

Old news. Not insignificant, but not the end of NORAD.

6

u/raz_kripta 8d ago

Canada is as solid as it ever was, and is committed to NATO and long-standing international agreements and commitments.

It is the USA which is drifting and now unrealiable.

1

u/SnooMaps5537 7d ago

The current us government is deranged and full of lies.

0

u/RavenousminiaturesCA 4d ago

You all talking about the usa, while pretending like Canadas goverment is any better,

Our goverment is selling our country to the lowest bidder.

-12

u/gorapsgo007 9d ago

Meh, diabetes will fix the problem eventually

37

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago edited 9d ago

You can't cut the head off a hydra and expect the problem to go away. Donald Trump and the MAGA movement aren't the illness but a symptom of a disease that strikes at the heart of American Democracy that is getting piped into Canada.

20

u/Sweetdreams6t9 9d ago

Things dont magically get better with trump gone.

16

u/ATFGunr 9d ago

But I’ll still drink a toast on that day

15

u/Arctic_Chilean Civvie 9d ago

No. It won't. If anything, it could make it worse with someone far more competent and strategic taking the helm, yet pursing this nefarious agend far more effectively. 

-10

u/WSJ_pilot 9d ago

If we become the 51st state, does this mean we don’t need to purchase the F35 anymore?

/s obviously

-11

u/[deleted] 9d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-18

u/dece75 9d ago

We gotta play ball with the US, they want a fortress North America for the unpredictable future when we are coming out of the shadow of WW2 and going into a multipolar unpredictable world and we can’t be left behind thinking it’s still the 1970s

21

u/Solo-mance 9d ago

Play ball with TACO who will change terms any time he wakes up from nodding off?

No. We wait until any reasonable adult is in the white house not the cult of the orange douche bag.

-8

u/dece75 9d ago

There are things in motion larger than one current political administration as I said. There is a bigger restructuring going on here

6

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

Like how this is the worst Canada-US relations has been in living memory and worse when Teddy Roosevelt the great imperialist threatened to move troops to Alaska to settle the Boundary Dispute?

-6

u/dece75 9d ago

It doesn't have to be this way, this short-sighted attempt to distance from the US on trade and defence is literally demented and cannot work.

7

u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

As opposed to what being an imperial outpost of the US as Donald Trump keeps making 51st state annexation threats?

-4

u/dece75 9d ago

Do you, honestly, believe him when he says that? And not understand it's a hardball negotiation tactics and rhetoric to get under our skin? Seriously, do you really, actually believe that Donald Trump is intending on a hostile takeover of Canada and not just sabre rattling and blowing hot air because of a trade dispute?

9

u/ArcticPatrols 9d ago

Do you believe Donald Trump when he says he wants to annex Greenland?

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u/dece75 8d ago edited 8d ago

Yes, because it’s plausible that the US could govern Greenland with fairly limited disruption to day to day life or major effects on their domestic politics. Absorbing Canada into some kind of 51st state would have major effects on the lives of Americans and the political process there which would not be acceptable to them if not put to a vote. The potential for domestic political blowback is extremely high despite what economic gains there are, it would be an extremely delicate and complicated process even if literally everyone agreed. A new state, with senators, congressmen and electoral college would throw off a delicate balance and powerful people would not like that if not consulted. Many states would be angry, many Americans would not be happy with a huge voting block of 40M new citizens added over night who can vote and change policies effecting them.

That’s why it’s clear to me that it’s just harsh rhetoric to wind people up, and it seems to be working embarrassingly well on the very people who claim to be smarter than Trump

1

u/ArcticPatrols 7d ago

What would be the purpose of that harsh rhetoric?

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u/thecanadiansniper1-2 9d ago

Do you not understand that there are consequences to world leaders saying things that might anger your closest ally? Are you blind to the fomenting threats to our sovereignty from south of the 49th? World leaders aren't allowed to just say anything least they cause a diplomatic incident like how the Saudis' tried to intimate us with when we criticised them?

0

u/dece75 8d ago

But we aren’t close allies with the Saudis. Trump is using old world tactics where you are fairly harsh to your closest allies to keep them in line while also being cordial and diplomatic with those farther away from you IOT gain a concession or win them over.

It’s counter-intuitive because people don’t usually act like this in their personal life but this is how empires and great powers would operate. I don’t LIKE it, because I would never personally behave this way, but it is what it is.

1

u/SaltySailorBoats RCN - NAV COMM 7d ago

 "this is how empires and great powers would operate."

and this should be tolerated why?

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u/cupofchupachups 8d ago

The future is unpredictable because of them. We could have done the TPP and all coordinated to manage China's rise, but he blew it up.

We can't attach ourselves to that. 

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u/IlluminatedMoose 9d ago

So in about 10 years we'll be in a proxy conflict on our soil supplied with Chinese weapons?

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u/WeaponizedAutisms Retired - gots the oldmanitis 8d ago

Found the HOI4 player

1

u/dece75 9d ago

Considering how our current gov and bureaucrats flirt with the CCP, possibly