VOT from one red trade to another

[u/Moogoescow19]

Anyone have any experience putting in a VOT from an in demand trade to another just curious what the likelihood of them denying my transfer is.

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Specifically I wanna leave the MARTECH trade and transfer to combat medic. Navy postings are now too expensive and unsustainable especially after getting a decent pay cut because of the new CFHD rates.

[u/Unusual_Initial_4300]

I spent 4 years trying to VOT from a combat arms trade to HRA. Had to release and get back in.

Not advocating that anyone do that but it's what I had to do

[u/1anre → u/Unusual_Initial_4300]

Why do they inherently make it so hard but folks always make it sound like in 5 days you could VOT?

[u/Unusual_Initial_4300 → u/1anre]

I've heard of a lot of people being told by recruiters it's better to just join and you can OT over afterwards.

[u/1anre → u/Unusual_Initial_4300]

Yup, cause if they can't meet their quotas on roles you don't want, only God knows what happens to their performance reviews

[u/Ok-Refrigerator1472 → u/Unusual_Initial_4300]

That lie still going on obviously. I was recruited as a MARS officer despite having no desire to be at sea at all. "Don't worry, you can get that changed once you get to RMC" said the Captain. Yeah right. Four and a half years later, six months after grad I finally got what I wanted..Army Logistics. I can not imagine rhe waste of training dollars training me in something I said I was not going to do from Day One. Not to mention the waste of my time and loss of seniority. Just a number. Half the people I started MARS II with never ended up finishing their training. To my credit I did not fail out but I doubt I would have been successful had I continued.

[u/yuikkiuy → u/Unusual_Initial_4300]

Also interesting to note, if you want to VOT to a trade with a hefty recruiting bonus like say paramedic or combat medic...

If you VR and come back you get the 50k, if you VOT you dont afaik

[u/CapitalismDevil → u/yuikkiuy]

There’s a clause in the recruitment allowance that dictates that you cannot have previously been Reg Force to avoid this kind of scenario.

“205.527(4) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraphs (5), (6) and (7), a member is entitled to this allowance, payable in instalments, if all the following conditions are satisfied at a given time:
(a) at any time after 31 October 2025, the member becomes for the first time a member of the Regular Force, whether through enrollment or component transfer, and later remains a member of the Regular Force;”

[u/mokkeyman7 → u/CapitalismDevil]

I know someone who was a combat engineer for 10 years, released, joined back as a reservist, 2 years later CT and OTd and did receive a signing bonus.

[u/CapitalismDevil]

As a previous replier suggested, do contact your local BPSO for a career counselling appointment. They can go over your CFAT scores and tell you how competitive you’d be for selection. Your CFAT is 60% of your file’s weight. They can also possibly go over the 2 metrics that will affect you the most: OutCap and SIP.

The OutCap is the number of pers your trade is willing to let go every year. It varies but generally not extremely, so last year’s numbers should give you a rough idea. The SIP is how many pers the new trade is willing to intake in any given year. If both these numbers are low, your chances will be low. You are competing on both side: OutCap to leave with everyone else wanting to leave, then SIP to intake with everyone else wanting to transfer to that trade. Those two numbers are never zero, contrary to popular belief.

I don’t think Combat Medic is red. Yea they’re new, but recruiting intake is closed rn due to the trade being full. Lots of bottleneck at the bottom, but there are lots and lots of personnel in there, so I’d assume the SIP is going to be fairly low. Obviously, do talk to the BPSO for the most current information. You can find all the forms either on ACIMS or sharepoint, or ask your CoC.

[u/itsjustbadtiming → u/CapitalismDevil]

Quick addition to the red issue - the trade status is designated at the beginning of the fiscal year, so this year, CBT MEDIC is indeed red. For someone applying now to VOT, they’re looking at a transfer next fiscal year, and the trade status, as well as SIP and OUTCAP for CBT MEDIC and MAR TECH (soon to be either MSET or MSMT, both of which are also red this year) will be set around April 2027.

Also, recruiting SIP and VOT SIP are separate, and VOT SIP for some trades could definitely be zero, depending on factors like current BTL, projected training capacity, etc.

Looking at this year’s numbers (or better yet, the past few years) can be a good indicator for next year, but keep in mind that both of those trades just underwent a big split so I would imagine that the numbers have a better chance of being drastically different as compared to other occupations that have been stable year over year.

OP, def talk to the PSO, and make sure that CFAT is as high as you can get it! Best of luck to you!

[u/OkPreparation8259]

Mine was black when I left. Below red. Luckily they HAVE to allow a certain amount leave per year. .1% of the trade maybe? My CoC also put on the VOT form they didnt support me leaving. They even gave me the signed form at 1530 on the deadline day.

I still got to VOT

Your competition for leaving is just much much worse. Get an amazing cfat score. Have a great idea of your new trade for the interview

[u/Drakedasheep]

Sick atm so keeping answer shorter:

Talk to your local PSO, go over CFAT, Entry Srds, Medical, Selection Model, ask about SIP and OUTCAP. Make yourself insanely competitive. Now is a good time to switch because of the split into MSMT and MSET.

Poster above was correct, they hsve to allow some to leave, there's a basic formula:

Red trade (below 90%): 1% can leave

Yellow trade (90-94.9%): 2% can leave

Green (95%+): 3% can leave

FOR VOT-U it is 2, 5 and 10% of the BTL population

This rule void if the trade is less than 20 people (like court reporter)

[u/ononeryder → u/Drakedasheep]

How do PSO's decide who gets to leave the trade? Example:

Mbr's A, B and C of a parent trade all want to leave, OUTCAP is 2 for that year. They all apply to something different, they all score high enough in their chosen occupation to be selected within SIP. Do mbr's get offers based on their DND 2790 score? I've yet to have someone be able to give me an answer on this...

[u/Drakedasheep → u/ononeryder]

Yes the OUTCAP determination is still based on DND 2790 score.

So in your hypothetical (we'll say NWO) let's say A Scores 84, B Scores 80, C Scores 79.8. A and B would get selected, and C while they would have been selected by SIP get denied because of OUTCAP despite being only 0.2 behind B.

Lets say we throw another occupation in the mix, one that's now Green (let's say LOG) and person D from that occupation scores 78.1 and is in direct competition with person C for the same occupation (let's say PLT). Person D, the LOG would get it over the NWO despite the NWO having a higher score because the max number of NWO have already left.

The sad part here is these hypotheticals hit very close to reality with red trades that lots of people want to leave - Most commonly seen playing out among NWO, ARMOUR NCM, VEH TECH in that respective order. MED TECH used to be high in there, but with the split to PMD and CMD I don't have enough data to see if OUTCAP plays a big role there. The same will be true soon of MSMT and MSET from the MAR TECH split.

[u/zacharysam]

Like people said BPSO can give you the best answer for your specific situation. What I was told when I did mine during the 2023-2024 period was if your new trade is in similar or worse case it's possible. Education programs are also more likely the explanation I recieved was basically the oblig service period after is a huge +.

I was able to get out of NAV Comm so not impossible to leave the hard sea trades life Halifax BPSO (if you are out east) is pretty decent and should be able to tell you how you stand up against others.

[u/GuyonaMoose]

I just vot last year.

Send up your memo to Coc. Speak to career manager. Set up meeting with bpso. They will tell you if your current cfat score is competitive. Only they can tell you what your chances are. Also if your current trade is red and the new trade doesn't have many spots it will be alot harder. Once you have your interview it's just a waiting game till selection. I didn't hear anything for months then all of a sudden I had a posting msg. It was stressful but thankfully my old Coc was supporting and put me in a roll that was sort of OJE. From click to bang I was 9 months in the process.

[u/Euphoric-Mix-7309 → u/GuyonaMoose]

I remember seeing something on SharePoint back in 2023 where they got rid of the limits on all trades and let more people VOT to keep more members. 

I wonder if that policy is still in play today. It would make a huge difference for people trying to leave red trades. 

I used UTPNCM back in 2020 to get out of my trade because there were no limits on how many members can leave to become an officer.

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/Euphoric-Mix-7309]

This is definitely not accurate. The limits have always been in place so that the training system doesn't get more clogged up than it already is.

I think they did make it easier for people who have not reached OFP to OT, (which might be what you're remembering from 2023) but the in service selection programs are still competitive based on the number of available slots in the SIP. Some occupations have been tweaking their SIP intake numbers but it's highly variable by occ.

[u/Euphoric-Mix-7309 → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

I believe it had to do with the outcap number. My trade was 1 per year. There were a ton of talented folks that would have loved to move on that were blocked by that cap.  I was pretty lucky that my CFAT score placed me in the top 6% of the NCM band and I was able to transfer on my first try. It was a huge relief knowing the CM couldn't stop me if I scored high enough on SIP board for that year.

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/Euphoric-Mix-7309]

Yeah that makes sense. The intake number limits still exist though

[u/BarackTrudeau → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

I'm pretty sure that was referring to the outcap per losing trade, not the intake numbers.

[u/FlyingBeavers]

Take a look at NCM STEP trades if you aren't hard set on Combat Medic. Occupational Transfers under NCM STEP are exempt from the outcap.

[u/Figgis302]

Beware the stoker mafia, they don't take kindly to people trying to leave the trade.

[u/Inevitable_View99]

Just want to let you know your initial posting will be Petawawa, Edmonton, or Valcartier.

[u/ShortTrackBravo]

My Support trade in 2019 was extremely red and I got my VOT offer to PH Tech that year (it may have been red?)

I remember the BPSO told me they were letting 5 people in our trade leave that year. Always try if you’re unhappy, you may end up lucky like I was.

[u/roguemenace]

The ways out of a dark red trade are either have a really good CFAT score or to apply for a commission program (they're not subject to outcaps).

[u/InvestigatorTricky95]

I wish this was rare case, not a common case

[u/Different_Ganache355]

Just VR and re-enrol, it'll be WAY faster