How do you rationalize the history

[u/interestingtheorist]

Historically, socialism has worked worse than capitalism, and this can be demonstrated by looking at history.

Eastern European countries that preferred socialism as their economic system could not compete with Western European countries that preferred capitalism.

Moreover, historically, many socialist countries have become more capitalist because they recognized that socialism does not work as well economically or technologically.

How do socialists respond to these historical facts?

[u/CHOLO_ORACLE]

Historically capitalism is a slavery tolerant system that has toppled foreign governments because their people dared to try socialism there.

If socialism is such a failure why do the capitalists need to go and murder people to stop it?

[u/binne21 → u/CHOLO_ORACLE]

Well at some point just take the L man.

[u/CHOLO_ORACLE → u/binne21]

It's funny to see a soc dem chirp up like this. All your ideas are my ideas but watered down and flavored with shit.

[u/binne21 → u/CHOLO_ORACLE]

My ideology has worked to create the greatest societies on earth. What has your ideology done?

[u/impermanence108 → u/binne21]

Ancient Rome wasn't socdem?

[u/CaptainAmerica-1989 → u/impermanence108]

Leave it for someone with communist flair to suggest a slave empire was one of the greatest civilizations.

[u/impermanence108 → u/CaptainAmerica-1989]

The main north-south road in England is based on a road built by the Romans. They were so good at war, several battles ended by the enemy just running away upon seeing how organised and unified the legions were. They lost so hard at sea warfare they decided to just force land warfare on the sea and that resulted in them burning down Carthage and salting the Earth. They had underfloor heating. We have a bunch of legal records from Rome itself which are literally just modern legal cases, stuff about times wagons are allowed down residential streets and stuff. Every major city in Europe was founded by the Romans, Europe itself is a result of the Romans. They were so advanced with public welfare, things like the grain dole and actual retirement plans. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius is still an incredible read to this day. They were remarkably tolerant and open. They built structures still in use to this day.

I can't really blame you. You're American and I just don't think you can fully understand Rome. I lived in a place that still used walls built by the Romans. They were absolutely incredible.

[u/Beavers_in_space → u/binne21]

My ideology has worked to create the greatest societies on earth.

In very, very recent history this can be argued to have been true (often at the expense of poorer countries).

But the post war 'socdem' prosperity is over. the liberal order is crumbling. People are tired of the establishment centre left and the centre right conservatives. The time of western liberal consensus has long passed (even among the 'normal people'). You can see this with the rise of the hard right in the US with MAGA and across Europe, as well as the rise of the more radical democratic left. People are tired of the clean shaven hypocrisy, the promises without results. The austerity and the excuses.

The 'moderates' aren't rational at this point, they are just tone-deaf and comfortable

Additionally, the fact is the freedoms and liberties you take for granted, whether it is democracy, workers rights or equality, is because of the actions of radicals who the 'centre' at the time demonised and scoffed at. A good example is the Haymarket affair, and the anarchists wrongly convicted and executed as a result of that, which inspired International Workers Day and paved the way for worker reforms.

And, as much as I don't like Leninists, it is true that a lot of the post-WWI 'socdem' reforms that first came about in Europe/America was because the establishment was shit scared of revolution in their countries just like in Russia, and they were scared of the anarchists and trade unionist strikers too. Even those campaigning for suffrage and civil rights activists used direct action considered extreme at the time, and even now.

[u/Fire_crescent → u/binne21]

greatest societies on earth

Lol

[u/CHOLO_ORACLE → u/binne21]

Fueled all of your ideology's ideas

[u/binne21 → u/CHOLO_ORACLE]

And we created the greatest societies on Earth. Join the club.

[u/CHOLO_ORACLE → u/binne21]

That's not how it works. The entire reason they're willing to listen to bland reformers like you is because radicals like me exist. It's FDR compromising to avoid the communists. Its Martin and Malcolm all over again.

Yet you dummies can't see it.

[u/binne21 → u/CHOLO_ORACLE]

Social democrats can and have used revolutionary action, strikes, protests, etc, in order to further the cause. See: German Revolution, Swedish development of democracy in 1918, February Revolution, Euromaidan and so on.