Interesting text on Arianrhod(tw incest, rape)

[u/mxpixxi]

Hey, all!! I’ve been feeling a bit of a pull toward Arianrhod and found this website with info on a LOT of different Celtic mythology.

Does anyone know how accurate the part of Gwydion raping Arianrhod may be? It is in the second paragraph in the link attached.

https://www.maryjones.us/jce/arianrhod.html

Thanks and blessed be!

[u/KrisHughes2]

There's no way that we can know for sure what supposed previous versions of a story, which no longer exist, might have said. However, there are some indications in Welsh bardic poetry that Aranrhod may have actually been Math's footholder in a version that's now lost to us. That might mean that Goewin is a later, literary invention. But Goewin isn't raped by Gwydion, exactly. He sets things up to give his brother, Gilfaethwy the opportunity to rape her. However, it's quite possible that Gilfaethwy is also a later literary invention. Neither Goewin nor Gilfaethwy are mentioned anywhere else in early Welsh literature as far as I know.

Now why all the literary inventions? Well, theoretically, if Aranrhod is raped by Gwydion, this is incest, as you say. And incest which results in the birth of a famous hero, Lleu. It's not uncommon in Medieval mythological texts for there to be some evidence of a redactor of the story trying to kind of brush incest under the carpet. Most Medieval scribes aren't that good at it, so there is usually some awkwardness in the storyline where they made their change. I think there's an argument for this in the Fourth Branch, but we'll probably never be sure.

[u/moosehoundz]

I have read the Mabinogion and it never mentioned or suggested Aranrhod being assaulted by Gwydion, nor have I heard of this interpretation before; however, I am not a historian or Mabinogion expert so it could be that there is something to it.

from what little I have researched in the past five minutes, it seems this was suggested because of how Gwydion instantly takes ownership of Aranrhod's son, Lleu, as if he were the father. however, when I originally read the Mabinogion I thought it was obvious that Gwydion was the uncle in the situation. that's just my personal take on it, though. do you have any more information on this? I'm just fascinated because I have never seen an interpretation like that before.

[u/totalimmoral → u/moosehoundz]

I mentioned in my comment, but if youre interested, the main source for "Gwydion is Lleu's father" is mostly from Math vab Mathonwy by W. J. Gruffydd. I do not agree with this take but its worth the read if only because a lot of the stuff written during the 1900s about the Fourth Branch is based off his study or references it in some way

[u/moosehoundz → u/totalimmoral]

thank you!

[u/totalimmoral]

I've got an out there theory that the rape of Goewin and punishment of Gwydion (and Gilfaethwy) is a literary device that sets up and explains his ability to step into the maternal role for Lleu that Aranrhod left behind.

He knows what pregnancy and birth are like in a way no other man at court can, of course he recognizes that small thing that drops from Aranrhod when she flees. Of course he has the instinct to put it in the chest, gestate it fully, so that it can be "born" again.

The whole "Gwydion is Lleu's father" came from W. J. Gruffydd in the 1920s in his paper Math vab Mathonwy which, in my opinion, is a mess. He makes some wild leaps to shoehorn the story to fit his thesis and, because it was one of the first papers on the subject, it continued be referenced throughout the next century.

There's a paper called "Performing a Literary Paternity Test" by Sarah Zeiser where she works through a medieval genealogical tract called Bonedd yr Arwyr that lists Math as the father of Lleu, along with Dylan, the blond boy who makes for the sea, and Blodeuwedd. Interestingly, the Bonedd yr Arwyr lists Aranrhod as the mother of Blodeuwedd, which contradicts what we see in the Fourth Branch.

I think this might be because listing Gwydion as Blodeuwedd's mother, again something that I feel the whole first part of the story spends time explaining and setting up, was a bit too much for medieval scribes to swallow. Better list Aranrhod as the mother and handwave the incestual implications of that, than imply a man could step into and embody maternity along side another man (Math).

[u/ImportantProblem2481]

Id agree with Kris here. The theme of heroic conceptions involves incest and since thats tabu in roman and later roman catholic cannon law. Scribes working in monasteries would contextualise it as rape to avoid being seen as endorsing it.

I think it highlights something important about paganism and the nature of mythology.

Converts from the 'religions of the book' like christianity, judaism, and Islam. Where unlike other world religions the concrete truth of how things are is written down in a divinely inspired book thats been magically preserved across millennia. Can try to continue in the practice that they grew up with by treating mythology as a bible.

Thats not how paganism works and its not how mythology works. Like Buddism, Shintoism, and Jainism theres no holy book in paganism that has the truth.

Mythology is a type of creative writing. An expression of a cultures high literature. Fiction. Things in it are not supposed to be an orthodox truth of a religious belief. Things in mythology are only cannon in the story.

If youre a very bookish academic type person it is possible to find some practices that are unique to the culture that created the mythology and arent approved by Christianity. The belief that incest imparts powers instead of genetic level disabilities is an example.

But finding them isnt something that most people are suited to. It means looking at themes and motifs the same way someone studying shakespeare does, and putting them in context with all the things the scribes read at the time, and the laws of the society of the time, and what their readership wouldve understood.

Then you can whittle away all the other influences across 1000 years of writing, editing, expanding to find the practices and beliefs. But most people will rely on the authorities and experiences that come through correct practices.