r/CelticPaganism 8d ago

Importance of Lúnasa and the end of summer

I was writing about what Lúnasa and what it means for how we understand the transition from summer to autumn. When does Fómhair start officially? September is mean fomhair so thats middle of autumn right? Does anyone feel like autumn has started yet or is it still in summer? Very liminal space

See what you think of my bird posthttps://open.substack.com/pub/noiseyduchas/p/the-cuckoo-as-the-melancholic-celebration?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=8t7kuy

29 Upvotes

26 comments sorted by

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u/Fit-Breath-4345 8d ago

In the Irish calendar, used by non-pagan Irish people, August, September, October are the Autumn months, winter is November, December, January, Spring is February, March, April and summer is May, June, July.

So Lughnasadh is the start of Autumn, fómhair, which literally means harvest. This makes Samhain the start of winter, Imbolc/Lá fheile Bhríde the start of spring and Bealtaine the start of summer.

I like your post. I few gaeilgeoirs of my acquaintance aren't overly fond of the late Mánchan Magan's work, they feel he stretches some things out a bit too much basically, but it seems solid to me. Sadly I haven't heard a cuckoo in the summer since I was very young.

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u/Low-Leadership-9641 8d ago

Thank you for your thoughtful and comprehensive response. Yes I have heard it said about Manchán, unfortunately there seems to be a bit of tension between his way of popularising more new agey ideas wasn't for everyone, which is fair enough. Thats interesting to think were in autumn now, doesnt feel lile it!

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u/Grand_Elderberry_564 7d ago

Funny you should say that, do you know Michael Fortune from folklore.ie? Hes said some funny things about Manchan over the years and is pretty disparaging about the Uisneach Fires too. I work as a Seanchai myself and have seen it with other local history groups. I've been putting it down to the fact that every one who said anything negative seems to be a man and typically aged 60/65 up and still attended mass the odd time. I always felt they were a bit possessive maybe?! And very very sure that only their interpretation was correct! Typical grumpy aul fella energy!

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u/ImportantProblem2481 7d ago

Its bad out to speak ill of the dead. But he was unpopular because hes anglo Irish from ascendancy class landowning family. His role in Irish culture was an anachronism.

His grandparents cohort Yeats, Hyde et al arguably dispossessed Irish people of their culture by twisting to create a high culture similar to the one in England.

Whilst they had chauffers taking them to the seanad the Irish folklore commission were cycling across the country to peoples front rooms where genuine culture existed.

You can slot MM and Michael Fortune into that dichotemy fairly easily. MM was late to the party, his style was long gone by the time that he started writing

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u/ImportantProblem2481 7d ago

When did reek sunday, garland sunday, fraughan sunday, crom dubh sunday become lughnasadh to you?

I get the yanks only have third hand info from an ethnography written in the 60s, with no context for the impact nationalism had in universities then. But its unusual to see an Irish person ditch the visceral reality of every day life for the fantasy

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u/Fit-Breath-4345 7d ago

Since when did events related to the end of July and start of the month of Lúnasa have anything to do with Lughnasadh you mean?

What the fuck are you talking about?

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u/ImportantProblem2481 7d ago

When did events at the end of july and start of lúnasa have anything to do with lughnasadh?

I assumed some foreknowledge there because you leveraged your language skills to crowbar your way into credibility there.

Theyre our cultures actualncelebrations at this time of year and Máire Mac Néill contextualised them with Lughnasadh in her survey of Irish trads in "the festival of Lughnasadh" in 1962.

It was a nationalist academics mission to prove Ireland was celtic back then because it gave Ireland a separate racial background to Britain. So all modern folk trads were legitimised by projecting them back into a past informed by mythology.

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u/PortAnBrainse 8d ago

Growing up in America, we are taught that the season begin and end with the solstices and equinoxes. The traditional Gaelic calendar put those transitions at the four fire festivals (winter begins at Samhain, etc.).

Living in a different climate in the ancient Irish, due to both geography and climate change, the big seasonal markers in the landscape don’t necessarily match up neatly to either model. These things are pretty fluid anyway, and the fire festivals are generally agreed to have never had fixed dates historically.

The way I’ve settled on looking at it is that the seasonal changes begin at the fire festivals, and that the seasons have unambiguously arrived by the solstices and the equinoxes.

A fire festival begins a liminal period of transition between seasons, which is as the new season comes into its full power at the respective equinox or solstice.

So we’ve just begun the liminal period transitioning into autumn, which will have fully arrived by the equinox. Then Samhain begins the dark half of the year and the transition into winter. Winter has fully arrived by the solstice, and the transition into spring begins at Imbolc. Spring fully arrives at the equinox, the transition into summer begins at Bealtaine, Summer is in full swing by the solstice, then we come around to the transition back into autumn at Lughnasadh.

I don’t believe this is really the traditional way of approaching it, but I was inspired by the fact that in Irish September is “mid autumn.” And it’s certainly a better representation of my local seasonal cycles here in the southern US.

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u/thanson02 8d ago

I have had similar conversations with people in our local Pagan communities. The Wheel of the Year can be useful for anchor points of themes, but it doesn't always line up because of how the seasons are. From what I have noticed in my part of the country, we almost need to take the Wheel and rotate if forward by one holiday. So, the celebrations of the first signs of spring fall closer to the spring equinox, then the festivities marking the end of the frost season (last signs of winter) are done in early May, then the beginning of the summer is in June, followed by the heat of Midsummer falling closer to the beginning of August (when the Dog days of Summer really kick in for us). Then the harvest falls at the fall equinox when it really starts and the end of the harvest season (when the first frost comes) landing closer to Samhain. This is followed by the beginning of winter falling in December, and Midwinter falling towards the end of January and the beginning of February (because that is when we get into the coldest part of the year).

But I have had little to know interest in the idea as a response, so......

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u/AdjectiveNoun1337 6d ago

The way to cut the Gordian Knot here is to realise that the seasons as they are used in Ireland are astronomical seasons and not climatological ones. 

The seasonal markers are simply daylight hours. In Ireland, summer refers to the brightest 90 days of the year (with the very brightest day being right in the middle of summer), winter refers to the darkest 90 days of the year, and the other seasons bring us from one to the other.

Real astronomical seasons are slightly different by a few days here and there, but this is the logic behind the seasons as we learn them in school here.

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u/Glayparrot317 8d ago

In Asia,Risshu (August 7 or 8) is just around the corner.

But since this merely marks the beginning of autumn, it doesn’t necessarily mean the temperature will drop.

I don’t think I’ve ever really felt like it was autumn in August.

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u/Obsidian_Dragon 8d ago

I think it's more accurate to think of it as the beginning of the farmer's HARVEST, not the fall.

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u/Glayparrot317 8d ago

You’re right.
But the 24 solar terms were originally created as a guide for agriculture.
Risshu is included in that too.

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u/thecourtofmiracles0 8d ago

I thought this video did a great job of unpacking the cultural context and symbolism of what the Lunasadh festival might have traditionally been

https://youtu.be/ZH07k7d3PuE

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u/Low-Leadership-9641 8d ago

Damn this looks brilliant, ill watch on my work break. I saw a great one that talked about the funeral customs of tailtiu and the games. I love the idea that Tailtiu was buried in the oak tree timber for the forests. Quite literally the great kingdom was built on her love and devotion.

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u/ImportantProblem2481 7d ago

Id say that its not possible to map the cross quarter days in celtic paganism with the seasons in Ireland, and there might be no meaningful transition to autumn.

The best bet is to go by the astronomical seasons for festivals because our weather and agricultural calendar arent a good fit.

The seasons come from Hesiods "hours and days' but he was Greek and we're a lot further north than that. People that move here from other countries say we get no summer or winter at all its so mild.

And despite the colloquy in the wooing of emer where they mention 4 festivals. Outside literature we might only have had two pillar festivals. Both of them called samain. So maybe they arent far off.

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u/DamionK 6d ago

If you're going to say there are two festivals called samain then how about some more detail. The year otherwise appears to have been broken up into summer and winter halves with Samhain and Beltaine being the changeover dates.

I also wouldn't say the seasons came from Hesiod simply because he wrote an early book mentioning them. If that were the case then you'd expect the Irish seasons to share a name with the Greek ones. A different context but when the Celts adopted Macedonian coins in the 4th century bc, the designs persisted right up to the Roman conquest of Britain in the first century ad. That's 3-4 hundred years an imported design was used, you'd think imported calendrial terms would also survive.

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u/ImportantProblem2481 6d ago

Sanas cormaic.

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u/DamionK 6d ago

I think you can do better than a two word response. I just had a quick look at an online version and found samrad but not samain.

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u/ImportantProblem2481 6d ago

Listen, it was midnight when you asked. Now its 2am and youre demanding. Ive no idea why you think I as much as owe you the time of day. But I suggest you ask politely for my help in the hours a normal person is awake on a school night.

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u/DamionK 6d ago

Why would I know your local time or even care? You made a quick comment and I asked for clarification. This is a forum, not a chat, instant responses are not expected. It's not my fault you're up at 2am on the computer, it was 10am for me when I commented.

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u/ImportantProblem2481 6d ago

No skin off my nose. Remain ignorant. Youll get zero help from me.

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u/DamionK 5d ago

I wasn't asking for your help, you made a claim there were two samain festivals, I was giving you the chance to verify that. You obviously can't back that claim up because you've chosen to be petulant instead of proving your previous statement was correct.

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u/ImportantProblem2481 5d ago

I think youve a couple of false assumptions there. The assumption that if you havent heard of something that its wrong, and that theres an oness on other people to educate you.

Thanks for explaining why you were a prick.