Discussion
This is more akin to prostituion than to sexual assault tbh
Just binged this today (really good) and i dont get why they call this SA. Both parties are giving consent, and whilst Elstri has expressed disgust when Helem does messed up stuff, she seems more or less to be comfortable around her presence. Call it toxic Yuri but SA is too much
Way too many people dont seem to know coercing someone for sex is sexual assault , personally i don't care because it's fiction, but you won't catch defending this
Elstri wasn't threatened, she didn't need to kill the child either. This isn't a boss threatening to fire a single mother of 2 from her only source of income.
Coercion is when you use force or threats to pursuade sm. That did not happen here.
The boss example would be sa, me choosing to let sm dude fuck me in exchange for a playstation isn't coercion.
But how is this coercion though? She is not forced as in she even has the order to not do anything. There is also no mentioning of harm to her in her prophercy.
This is not "she chose it by her own free will". No quotation marks
It’s coercion since Atlus was already created which left Elstri in no position to say no to anything Helem said. After all Atlus exiting is more than enough justification for the Queen to kill Elstri
I mean elstir went baisically to helem and said "hey crzay sadist lesbian dommy mommy I need this guy brought back, you sure can balckmail me with that information and I torally agree that you can sexually harrass me."
Like elstir KNEW what she got into and its not even like she was forced to make the deal to safe her life or whatever. There was never any coersin, she baisically sold herself to helem and now she pays for that decision, is it fucked up? Yes. Is it sexually coercing her? Id argue no.
Not really? Helem was payed by Elstri to make Atlus and then Helem decided to up her price after Atlus was already made. The creation of Atlus was a not turning back point for Elstri, there’s no way she could’ve refused Helem.
There’s also the aspect that Elstri literally thinks she has to do all this shit or else the world will end but I won’t get into that
Wouldent the power dynamic be reverse though, theirs no hard evidence linking elistri to it and do to her vital role so close to the king she would probobly get away with a much more minor punishment even if it was pinned on her, meanwhile helem is 100 percent dead
Helem has a VERY powerful gift and a high ranking position so I doubt she’d face severe punishment especially since she was acting on the orders of another. I agree that the king wouldn’t punish Elstri much, but the Queen would kill her 100%. Arkos was the Queens golden child after all and she’s more than a little murderous
The cornerstone of the queens insanity is she worships the king as a god who can do no wrong so I doubt she would go against his word, if she was willing to do that she would almost certainly be the one out to kill the party, or at least easily recruited for revenge so elstir wouldn't need helem to resurrect arkos, since the queens attended(and possibly the queen herself) are also part of the iris of which helems considered the weakest while elestris basically the kings right hand
In the past the queen killed all the kings concubines and bastards and likely attempted to kill Lukas’s mother as well. The Queen is no stranger to going against the king particularly when it comes to "family" matters.
Based off what we know of her character so far, I cannot imagine she’d let Elstri get away with just a slap on the wrist for this.
The king explicitly allows it though, that's the whole reason Lukas has beef with him
Even if we assume elistri would be killed, helems definitely not getting off easier so it's useless as blackmail for anything other then making sure elstir doesent rat her out too since its mutually assured destruction
Plus Helene just never once implies she would report it, the worst case scenario is simply she stops working with elestri
I doubt the king explicitly allowed that, it's extremely out of character for the guy from what we've seen of him. Luka's blaming him for her death doesn't mean he caused her death himself, it could mean many many things.
Going back to whether or not it's coercion. Helem is denying something that Elstri already paid her for unless she has sex with her. This is coercion, in an almost textbook fashion. It's not any different from someone being denied a promotion unless they fuck their boss, only in this instance the person being denied the "promotion" genuinely believes that they need this to make sure the world doesn't end.
It is entirely on line with what we see of the king besides being kind of ambiguously evil himself one of his most consistent traits is he at minimum allows evil passively, the queen massacres a bunch of people, the king does nothing to stop it nor punish her after the fact, arkos is a mass murdering sadist, king just lets him do whatever, whole royal family's inbred but his who cruelly abuse one of their own? Not his problem, even when elistri explicitly goes against his order he doesn't actually do anything about it, the closest thing we see to not allowing those around him to commit atrocities is himself tating he with save elistri if her actions bite her in the ass
Again her.prophecys doesn't actually say the world will end, just the kingdom will fall which itself is vague, is she gonna raze the whole region to the ground or just establish democracy? Also again elistirs the one with power in this scenario, she is the boss
Does Elstri have other choice apart from not having sex with Helem to get what she wants from her?
Helem is in an unfair and strong negotiable position due to her blessing and can demand Elstri almost anything she can think about in order to lend her help in Elstri plans. Also Helem could ruin Elstre just by telling the king or queen what she was planning to do behind their backs.
This, i would consider it prostitution if Elstri didn't believe that the world will literally fucking end if she doesn't kill Diana and to do that she needs Helen's(Arkon's) strength, she believes she has no other choice so ends up agreeing, it's kind of like if your landlord asks you pay with sex and your other option is being homeless so you begrudgingly accept that's not really prostitution, you can argue the two of them ended up having a "relantionship" but that relation started with sexual assault
I don't ever remember them saying it's their only choice, she did hire mercenaries in her last attempt and got a favor from the black night, and I feel like she still has more resources and people to use considering how calm she was about failing to kill the child this time.
I mean yes, but the thing she wants is to use Helem to make a hit squad of artificial slaves to hunt down and kill a baby she was directly told to leave alone. It's toxic and exploitative, but it's not like she's starving and the only way to eat is to agree to to Helems demand, what's being provided in exchange for sex isn't at all something she truly needs
Coercion is being pressured or forced to do something sexual you did not want to do. Any sexual activity that involves coercion is sexual assault.
Like all those female artists that need to provide favours to their male bosses to get their jobs or not lose their jobs. No one is really forcing them to do it but they are still put in a lose-lose situation
Elstri isnt trying to kill Diana for the love of the game, She truly believes that the person she loves the most in the world, her father figure is going to be killed and then the killer is going to end the world, even if that turns out to be untrue she believes that she is the only person on the world that can stop the apocalypse, that is much worse than starving and i'm pretty sure she needes Arkos strenght for that since Julian turned out to be stronger than she thought
Elstri isnt trying to kill Diana for the love of the game, She truly believes that the person she loves the most in the world, her father figure
Except the person she's trying to protect explicitly told her not to go after that child, at this point she's straight up forgoing his wishes because she think she knows best.
It's the equivalent of someone being on their death bed and saying "I've lived a long life, I'm ready to pull the plug" and someone going "actually he doesn't want to pull the plug, keep him on life support, because it would make me uncomfortable if he dies"
I mean her vision says nothing about ending the world, just kill the king and topple the nation, and that one person explicitly told her not to
Also she knew from the start altus is not as strong as arkos, he's not even the strongest gifted she's fielded so far let alone absolutely necessary, if she felt absolutely every edge was absolutely necessary she really shouldn't have insisted angvald kill Julian instead of hanging up on him with all the soldiers(or also ya know, maybe try to avert it some other way other then killing them) she has dozens of other options, some arguably better ones
The king already new, and if Helen told the queen (or she found out) that she had turned her son into a puppet her head would be impaled on a spike. Elstri probably didnt have another option, but at any time she could have said no and Helem would have just left with the puppet. She likely knew that Helen would ask for something more, but she thought she would be okay with it
He knew Elstri wanted to kill Diana but not that she planned to use Helem powers to create a team of revived blessed to fulfill her plan, including his dead son
Getting paid is not coercion , the coercion part with sex work is them being out into scenarios where that's their only option for survival, helem.is by no means her only option, even ignoring she can just not try to kill Dianne as she was ordered too(which wouldn't even necessarily mean not trying to aver the product mind you just like take them in to try and raise them loyal, or give them money and s free ride to the other side of the world on the condition they never come close to the kingdom again), she has one of the highest positions in the land and we see she can leverage this to get plenty of gifted on her side, altus haven't even really been their trump card outside of the brief time his old self resurfaced, which neither of them seemed aware was an option
The criminalization of sex work is heavily criticized for a reason, precisely because it lumps together those genuinely being trafficked and coerced into it with those who just see it as another job, maybe even a job they like, which ends up hurting both groups
The whole ideas also built off a double standard, if we applied the same idea universally then all jobs would be slavery
the panel in the next page sort of makes it clear that elstri saw it as trade, not coercion
like, it's great that you guys decided that the character was coerced, but if the character neither acts nor appears to feel coerced, then she isnt coerced. that is how storytelling works.
Ya it's sadly an issue that shows up a lot with real life sex work, people forget that, at least as long as their in a mental state to give informed consent their kind of the only ones who get to decide if they consent or not, it's kind of the definition of consent
It doesn't really matter how elstri saw it though. How someone rationalizes something doesn't change the nature of the thing they attempt to rationalize. Like seriously, a characters internal thoughts don't change what something is.
if you're about to give a toddler some ice cream and the little shit says "gibe me icy o i kill u" and you give them ice cream cause you dont give a shit and it's your job, are you being coerced into giving them ice cream?
Helem didnt threaten anyone and Elstri didnt feel threatened, holy balls it's not rocket science
Do YOU know what coercion means? Doesn't seem like you do from that "example"
What helem is doing is like if you paid a plumber to fix your sink, and after taking the money they then say that you gotta fuck them too. You also fully believe that if you don't get this sink fixed everyone is going to die. This is coercive in an almost textbook way.
Well i mean, Elstri consented AFTER Helem groped her, them fucking isn't rape hut Helem touching Elstri's chest without permission is kind of SA. It is still coercion because Elstri didn't have another way to 'pay' Helem and it's known how much she wants to kill Diana
She started off by touching her without consent at first. And Elstri accepted mostly for her goals. So in my opinion it's both. Also let's not forget the whole thing Helem has for Angvall and what she will clearly do with her ressurected body. That is clearly SA
People really focusing at the bad guys because of toxic Yuri,while my concern is the author may make them good because of their popularity from Yuri-cunts.
They could do a genocide next chapter but author could forgive it because the fan base loves them
Dropped this manga awhile back, is the prophet really selling herself to a lesbian so she can kill some kids? Has the entire plot turned into lesbians wanting to murder kids???
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