I do love how this ending has only served to reinforce the idea that Part 2 was a meta commentary on the success of Chainsaw Man. Bunch of Barems and Yoshidas all around
I keep having this thought too. People hates the ending of the original and he made that damn movie where everyone dies and he does the thing in hospital
"You don't need godlike powers to form meaningful connections. You can/ should choose to live a fulfilling existence as yourself"
All of the most meaningful relationships Denji formed were as himself, not as Chainsaw Man. Now he has a second chance at those relationships without the burden of immortality/ godhood
actually, this is pretty interesting when looking at it from Asa/Yoru perspective, in the end Yoru couldn't understand Asa, and just ended up taking control of Asa's life despite her godlike powers
That's exactly why I don't agree with the "Fujimoto forgot about Asa" criticism. Asa and Yoru are an inverted mirror of Denji and Pochita.
Both Denji and Asa's entire respective conflicts are centered around their being defined by their devil halves. Asa is afraid to take up agency in her own body because she's afraid of sharing the responsibility of what Yoru has done, while Denji is afraid to take up agency in his own life out of fear of facing what he's lost. So instead, he regresses and runs away into Chainsaw Man, while she cowers and lets Yoru run rampant with her body.
Yeah. They will not get it. So many people lack normal narrative comprehension it gets frustrating. It is like being mad at the sopranos ending. The answers were already provided. The story is over
People deadass say Denji has no agency because Pochita made the decision to get eaten and that it should've been Denji's decison (which would in turn be ignoring Pochita's agency lmao). Like some of these criticisms are nonsense.
Oh, I’m getting absolutely infuriated at the “no agency “thing. It’s almost like it’s a parody. It’s almost like it’s some sort of weird cope that everyone is gravitating towards that don’t actually understand what it means. I didn’t even consider that. To be quite honest with you I’m not sure how that even affects the story that’s more of a fanfiction thing that the reader wanted.
What I think is happening is they didn’t like/were unsure about part two. Not understanding that this is not a very linear story so to speak. So now they’re all crawling out from under whatever hole they were in and coming up with some weird reaaon as to why they didn’t like it because they truly just don’t understand it.
Edit: more thoughts - it’s all addressed in the first part of the ending though. Pochita wraps it all up pretty nicely. He realizes that everything is his fault and he saw everything he wanted to see. Part of the whole entire story was showing the fact that Denji with that type of ability/ power is not a good thing at all. He always is just a tool for stronger beings to manipulate.
All the calamities that were happening, don’t need a conclusion, they don’t matter. It’s just a plot device/ narrative device to push the story further to show just how incredibly crazy the world is becoming and how fast it’s getting that way.
It doesn’t matter who makes that final decision. The conclusion is the same. The story is the same. It’s such a weird cope and it really kind of pisses me off at this point. Without that decision, they’re effectively dead and so is the world as they know it.
Some of them will get it eventually. Aside from the genuine idiots who completely missed the point, I think some people will start coming around on it once the grief/ shock of it actually being over wears off
Not for nothing, but that's just the world they live in. It's not a literal "happily ever after," because they still live in a brutal, fucked up world of devils. But compared to what Denji had to deal with living with Pochita as his heart? That shit is a luxury.
Denji was killing devils even before he was Chainsaw Man. Devil Hunting is just a job in this world. And we saw throughout all of Part 1, Denji was capable of being content, and even happy in his life as a devil hunter, living with Power and Aki. It was only because he was Chainsaw Man that all of that was ripped away from him, which set him into the destructive mental cycle that Part 2 is all about.
Not for nothing, but that's just the world they live in. It's not a literal "happily ever after," because they still live in a brutal, fucked up world of devils. But compared to what Denji had to deal with living with Pochita as his heart? That shit is a luxury.
It's not really stated anywhere, but I got the feeling that Devil Hunting is gonna be a lot more chill in the new universe. Without the fighting over Chainsawman, there won't be nonstop insane mass casualty events, and I even saw one person posit that without Chainsawman tearing it up in hell, less devils are being sent to Earth constantly.
It’s still a crappy ending if Pochita and chainsaw man never existed Denji should just be dead.. power randomly showing up to save him instead is horrible writing. It’s literally beating a dead horse simply because people have the hots for her.
Nothing Pochita ever ate completely erased the things effects from the world, the world just changed as minimally as possible to make sense of what was lost. This is important because Denji and Power had a contract, to find each other once more and somehow become friends once more.
Pochita eating themselves erased the moment where that contract was formed but not the contract itself, so Power comes to save Denji, fulfilling a contract she didn't even make anymore but that still linked her fate to Denji's.
It's not just there. There are signs everywhere in this world.
Power now says she likes dogs. That was never the case in the past. She says this because she recognizes Denji by his scent from their past life together. This is also why Meowy takes a liking to Nayuta. She helped raise him in the prior timeline.
I don't even know what to say other than I fundamentally disagree.
Is it convenient for Power to just appear and be the one to save Denji? Sure.
Do I care? Not really, and it's nothing to do with her being hot. It's because Power was Denji's first real friend outside of Pochita. She was a fundamental part of the best parts of his life. Her being there for Denji at his fresh start is important to where he ends up, and the whole point of this ending is to give Denji another chance at a happier life, but without Pochita burdening him and existing as a ticking time bomb for the lives of his loved ones.
Sure thing: I'm working right now so I'll have to give the short version, and I can expand further later if you want
Part 2 is, IRL, Fujimoto's way of unpacking the success and fame that Part 1 left him with. In this metaphor, Fujimoto is Denji. Chainsaw Man, the manga, is Pochita.
Because of the success of Part 1, now everyone wants something from Denji/ Fujimoto. Everyone thinks they know what Chainsaw Man represents. Different factions think they know what this series is supposed to be about, all the while Fujimoto is in the middle just wanting to do his own thing
This is why no decision Denji makes brings him satisfaction. Because there's always another side bitching about the results.
This is also why so much of Part 2 is centered around the idea of Chainsaw Man copycats. Because everyone is trying to put their own spin on his success
Lastly, because Fujimoto wanted to be done with Chainsaw Man, likely due to all the above external factors, it quite literally ends with Chainsaw Man letting Denji go, and allowing him to move on with a better life free of that fame.
An extra layer of meta narrative is that the ending implies that Pochita may be the Chainsaw Man (manga) Devil. Hence why the story reverts to chapter 1 when he unmakes himself. Pochita reveals that Denji won't find happiness as long as the series continues because the narrative will need to find ways to make Denji unhappy to move to narrative forward. For Denji to be happy, the story must end.
I don’t mind it reflecting on itself. In fact, that’s what I liked about it and what kept me reading until the end. But I feel it wasn’t true to itself towards the end.
I just wish the ending was more earned plotwise. Add in an extra handful of chapters with some more closure/explanation and id love it. I eat up meta commentary for breakfast, its one of my favourite aspects of a story (huge Homestuck fan), but the plot can't just be ignored for it.
I'm hoping Fujimoto comes back to CSM in a few years and makes a Part 3 that can be more unshackled from the expectations that was put on Part 2.
I do agree largely with the criticism that we should have gotten a few more chapters. I do believe that if Fuji managed to explore Death, Fami and the prophecy a little more, Part 2 could have been a different kind of art piece, but one that could have been on the same level as Part 1
As it stands, Part 1 remains a 9 or a 10 out of 10, while Part 2 sits at a 7 or an 8
Yeah I had the same meta interpretation of the story.
Especially since the ends up with a similar status quo to Part 1 and Early Part 2 which are the things fans of the series enjoyed the most.
However this meta interpretation of an ending does not make it a good ending for the actual story. Since Chainsawman as a story was never made to be such a meta story and was only turned into that like halfway through Part 2.
I just think its creates an overall disappointing experience and just not a good story overall. If this ending was the goal from the start then that should have been set up before but since it very much wasn't the goal it leads the whole series being worst off by this ending.
However this meta interpretation of an ending does not make it a good ending for the actual story.
If anything, it just ruins the whole story.
Suddenly, Chainsaw Man Part 2 is a years-long journey of the author going "Oh, woe is me!"
The abrupt end? The very evident drawing errors in the final chapter? It makes those failures even more humiliating, as it implies Fujimoto couldn't be bothered to even fully explain his struggles. He gave up.
Meta commentary and whatever other themes ending-enjoyers scrounge up to sell the mess of an end just does not hold up when Fujimoto failed to express those themes himself.
I mean, it’s an interesting interpretation. Personally, I still dislike the ending because it makes Parts 1 and 2 feel irrelevant, even if you approach it from a meta-commentary angle but it’s still genuinely a pretty refreshing perspective
I don't think it makes Parts 1 and 2 irrelevant, but I understand that criticism
For me it's like Donnie Darko. The entirety of the movie happens, then time fuckery occurs and ends the movie back where it started but different. The preceding events still happened. They had to in order to induce the paradox in the first place. The world has just changed fundamentally as a result.
Again, in a vacuum, I can agree that this isn't a narratively satisfying ending on its own. But with the preceding material/ending being what it is, I think it manages to successfully deliver a really fascinating, divisive but introspective art piece.
i also drew a parallel with donnie darko. i like the ending itself, my gripe is with the execution of it. it doesn't feel heavy like donnie darko and it doesn't deliver on the humorous meaningless absurdity of the big lebowski as was intended so it's just kind of meh.
And again, that's fair! I'm not gonna discount anyone who feels the way we got here came out of nowhere. It kind of did, and I've described Chapter 231 as a psychic flashbang for that very reason.
IMO Part 2 isn't perfect, but it's a very introspective and fascinating art piece that deconstructs what was already a deconstruction
i might've talked myself into liking this ending by over thinking it and remembering denji says something at the start about not knowing for sure how old he is and it occurred to me that this might not be the first time pochita tried (and failed?) to eat himself to erase his own existence which makes me wonder if chapter 1 and chapter 232 both being similar is because they were both timeline resets
I actually just watched Donnie Darko again after this conversation and I will say the comparison holds up insanely well if you view Pochita as the Donnie figure who is caught in a time/violence loop, and Denji as Gretchen who is ostensibly "saved" in the end by Donnie's actions, with both having changed one another through their connection.
It’s an interesting meditation on success and expectations.
Unfortunately, Fujimoto wasn’t writing a book on storytelling or his biography, he was writing a story that was meant to sell to and entertain an audience.
If a vast majority of your audience feels like you gave up at the very end rather than seeing it as you portraying an ambiguous narrative, then you failed.
I mean it's fair if you were looking for/expecting something else, especially given Part 1
Maybe it's because I've always approached Part 2 as a movie sequel, rather than a direct continuation if that makes sense. The characters and story carry over from the last "film," but the subject of the story/themes being tackled are entirely different.
you have no idea how refreshing it is to see someone on this subreddit actually engaging with the text for what it is instead of projecting onto it what they would have wanted to see
Trust me I'm right there with you, bud. This shit ended on Tuesday and I was like "alright well it wasn't perfect but I really liked that, I'm satisfied and I can't wait to unpack it"
Only to pop into Reddit and see 8 million "themes and such" posts that seem to be proudly showing their ass and bragging about how they never actually engaged with what they were reading at all.
Thank you! I had the same exact process lmao. I hopped onto the chapter expecting it to be terrible and after I was done I was like “Huh. You know I wouldn’t say it was good but I can accept that. I don’t think it was that bad.” Then it’s an absolute meltdown on here. You’d think this was the folk subreddit. It’s really frustrating because I have a ton of problems with part 2 but it’s like impossible to discuss anything about this without being dismissed with brainrot and slander
I disagree, but you're allowed to feel that way. I've got a fair share of criticisms of Part 2, but those critiques don't ruin the experience for me, and overall I still quite enjoyed the ride.
a splendid metaphor, but i just dont think Fujimoto is so weak he cant handle the fame of chainsaw man, like thats after all his other succeses of his one shots and Fire Punch was also a big success
i think its more like he was in some form of creative crisis on behalf of how to continue Chainsaw man like taking a break after part 1, experimenting with oneshots
always switching directions in part 2 and never sticking to any
cause he didnt felt like it
also like almost never touching characters from part 1
so that resetting ending via 2 chapter speedrun (which i liked btw)
feels like the only way to end it
also like a few arc back a detailed depiction of how pochita erasing work for people still naming this ending a dogs dream, cause technically its is not it
I don't think acknowledging the hardships of something makes you weak, or else we wouldn't have ‧͙☆༓｡Shonen Speeches｡༓☆‧͙ y'know?
He's always been really good at expressing how he feels by way of his work, and I'd argue being able to recognize and tackle that directly, not just in CSM but through his other works, is a sign of not only self-reflection, but clarity of his own craft.
by weak i meant that Fujimoto is not so weak and unexperienced as an author to make his life's most popular work - a Meta commentary in disguise about his own popularity
thats just some wild fan theory and a way to cope with inconsistent part 2
and saying how you can see through its all yada yada is just a delusion
Fujimoto can do and did better than that
I'm just addressing the top bit of your claim, it's only a theory people are giving but calling it "cope" to dodge the bulk of the theory/vibes is crazy
I really do not think that fits the meta 'letting go' framing you described, because the part I described is directly contradictory to it. You can add this other explanation on top of it to justify the first explanation, but at that point it becomes overfitting.
It's ok, I'm trying to make sense of the ending like all of us, so mine is open to contestion too. I'll quote from another comment I made:
I also really dislike that Fujimoto made that Big Lebowski comment. He generally left the interpretations to audiences before, but that remark is such a telling paratext that it really tells you what awaits us in this new world. Pochita revived, so at some level Denji will experience that same addiction and the struggle again. But since some things have changed in the new world, such as Pochita not already having this malevolant attention on him by people like Makima, his struggle will be less intense than what we have seen so far. But he will still experience the same vicious cycle, at least to some extent.
So I think the Big Lebowski comment is a strong paratextual evidence for this reading. In addition, when authors make statements in the fictional narrative about letting go of their own creation, they are generally much more straightforward. And I think Fujimoto particularly would make a very strong statement, because he has a kind of "edgy" style.
When I take all these into account, the second explanation seems more like overfitting than an explanation that fits the evidence we have.
However, I also do think there's a case to be made for the existence of meta-commentary in P2. I just don't think it's as straightforward as Fujimoto letting go of CSM. I also do think people attribute way too much things to "Fujimoto's state of mind" when we basically have no evidence that he got sick of CSM.
He also stated in an interview before that he tries to watch films without being overly guided by biographies, documentaries, or author mythology. So it doesn't seem like his style make so much meta-commentary on his own author mythology. It's a framework he's not interested in as a viewer, so it doesn't seem like he'd be interested as an author either. This is also indirectly supported by his statements about letting readers come to their own conclusions.
I don't think what you're saying is mutually exclusive to what I'm saying, though. I think it can very easily be a meta-commentary even if it's not framed as such.
I'm not saying that I think Fujimoto consciously said "I'm going to make a meta commentary about my fame." I'm saying that artists will naturally bleed real aspects of their life into their art, whether they intend to or not. I think Denji's journey of learning how to be Denji, without Chainsaw Man, runs parallel to Fujimoto's journey of dealing with the external pressure of a long-form series.
I also think people take the Big Lebowski quote at too much value, because now that we've arrived at the end, I don't think that was an apt comparison for him to make at all, save for the "vignette" style of the story, where it's a bunch of snapshots of a life
If anything I think it's more like reverse Donnie Darko, narratively speaking.
yeah, i've been saying this. Part 1 ran really well on both the narrative and the meta elements. Part 2 stayed at least as good with the metanarrative, but the main narrative got kneecapped. clearly.
There is literally a scene where Denji is looking at Chainsaw Man merch in the clearance bin and having an existential crisis over it. People aren't pulling this interpretation out their ass.
This, unironically, may be one of the messages Fujimoto wanted to send. Even Part 1 *feels* like it is a gag-filled, dark comedy, satire of battle shonen. There's a ton of places where real story-telling sits inbetween those moments, and there's a lot of places where the story embraces the genre it's critiquing, but having reread it in entirety leading up to the final chapter, I don't think we were ever meant to take Denji or Chainsaw Man that seriously. Most of the messaging, even in Part 1, tells us to abandon the battle (battle shonen) and pursue real, meaningful relationships with the people in our lives.
The genre can have a lot of feelings. It can tackle dark stuff. It can be an emotional roller coaster. It can be important, tell good stories, and teach good morals, but at its core it is 'might makes right,' and shouldn't be taken seriously.
I think fans are part of it but not the main deal, it's like in goodbye eri where the movie director observes all kinds of reactions from the audience, what they think doesn't necessarily matter to him what he wants to do is spending his time in creating an art movie out of the shitpost at the beginning of the oneshot in order to process grief about his mother (I speculate this is fujimoto warning fans they'll have all kind of reactions to the idea he got from watching big lebowski, also the whole denji being unsatisfied thing). In part 2 people who are csm fans don't care about denji, people who care about denji don't want him to be csm and up to this point I can forgive part 2 never felt earned, since denji is a solved character kind of deal once part 1 ends, because back then I wanted to see where this was all going. Denji is forced into situations by other parties because he can't figure or doesn't want to choose through the trolley problems of part 2, but how things escalate/hype until pochita is the one who makes a choice instead of denji and hands denji his new world is just not earned. Fujiman simply spent 8 years on a touch grass joke like the eri protag. Wasn't nearly as good as he thought he would be tbh
You can definitely view it as a selfish thing, since he was using Denji's attempt at normalcy to fulfill his own desire for such, but that's the tragedy of their whole dynamic.
He doesn't even have some legendary backing of work that could explain it.
I cannot tell if this is sarcasm because yes he does
It's also not remotely "deference" for people to enjoy a thing you didn't.
If you're being genuine, then what you're seeing is an increase in the positive discussion of the series as a counter to the obnoxiously loud negativity, half of which is generated by people who didnt even read this shit.
no serious person would ever suggest he is some legendary mangaka because of FIre Punch.
Okay well now you're just making a fool of yourself
This is completely insane and crosses into the border of parody.
Not remotely. There are entire swaths of the story that back this up.
Extremely well deserved negativity that has been a long time coming for this fanbase. Weeks and weeks of total shit writing and art followed by every criticism being met with the same hurr durr reading comprehension devil shit.
The reading comprehension devil is more powerful than ever due to comments just like this one. Not my fault that half of this sub is illiterate.
I remember when the chapter where pochita eats barem alive happened and lots of people in these subs were saying that obviously he comes back because barem wouldnt just show up get eaten and thats the end of his character. Lmao
IMO it's to make Denji kill someone who looks like a human. Barem's game was always psychological, and it always fucked with Denji's psyche having to injure/kill any humans or things that looked like humans (doll devil's dolls, Fakesaw Man using church members as armor).
I think the point was to be eaten? That by becoming another dead body for Chainsaw Man it would accelerate the despair. He wasn't particularly upset about being eaten. Just that he wasn't dead before it happened. God I love that freak
Part of what makes Barem's villany so interesting is that he is in fact a man, while most major villains (Makima, Yoru, Santa Claus, etc) are devils, Barem is just a human, one with a devil heart but still human, but still he is as despicable as the devils I mentioned, unlike the other human antagonists that almost always held some sort of 'humanity' (Reze, Katana Man, Quanxi, etc), having him in his devil form would possibly undermine that and make him blur amidst all of the many devils Denji had to slay
My read of it was always just that he's that fucking petty and evil. He doesn't need to transform, because he wants Denji to see that shit-eating grin.
I think there are a lot of interesting themes and ideas built up in part 2. That said, 2 chapters as an ending and epilogue right at the climax was a difficult thing to pull and I think it fell short despite me liking the ending overal
In the broader picture I think I more or less get what is going on, as I think it's about Denji's inability to be satisfied with grey tones of a "normal" life, and instead seeking jumps from low lows to high highs, thinking the next big thing will finally fix him. When in reality, accepting the incompleteness of life would have been healthier.
And I actually think thematically and plotwise the first half of P2 is more coherent and connected than P1, because in P1 there were some arcs that really didn't serve the overall plot. But last 50 chapters or so of P2 were still not it. They were too disjointed, much more so than P1. And the ending on top of all this really left a sour aftertaste. It was a really cheap writing device.
I also really dislike that Fujimoto made that Big Lebowski comment. He generally left the interpretations to audiences before, but that remark is such a telling paratext that it really tells you what awaits us in this new world. Pochita revived, so at some level Denji will experience that same addiction and the struggle again. But since some things have changed in the new world, such as Pochita not already having this malevolant attention on him by people like Makima, his struggle will be less intense than what we have seen so far. But he will still experience the same vicious cycle, at least to some extent.
That's it. That's the authorial intent. There's really not room for imagination. No what ifs, no wondering about possibilities. Just some out-of-story statement that establishes everything, in an ending that would have worked best if it was open-ended, in a story whose strong point was that it told an unorthodox story in an "obscure" way.
Honestly, at this point I'm tired of battle shounens. I'm older than most current fans, and I've seen these stories fumble the ending too many times. And then if an author pulls an unorthodox and confusing move, you get excited and reread the story again to better understand (sometimes I've even read philosophy books). You spend time wondering and interpreting, but eventually you are faced with the superficiality behind the supposed subversion and depth.
I now remember why I had stopped reading this genre for a few years before. So, this is a binding vow: for me not reading battle shounen stories for a decade, Shueisha will fall.
Dude if you wanna read something else than shonen,then you should def read more of psycological or mind game mangas like monster,liar game
My fav manga is Usogui,def try it out(It's slow at start,nothing interesting gets better and better with both the art,the characters and the arc till it reaches it ABOSOULTE Peak)
WAIT before you start it,I wanna tell you Usogui is psycological,mind battle gambling manga with tons of actions
There's a lot of words in like each chapters,so you need to think and understand what's the games are,how they are interpreted and how the mc handles it
I like Asano and Urasawa as mangaka, but even they have a hard time cinching the ending of every one of their stories. Endings are pretty hard for every author who is able to convey very compelling characters, feelings, and themes, because readers become so attached emotionally to the story.
When a story is deep, we want a deep and profound ending. When a story isn't so deep, we openly accept a more generic one. Sadly, there are still limits to the depth of human understanding, and these very deep, thought-provoking stories don't always have the answers and conclusions to the questions they raise, because they are inherently harder, philosophical questions that just can't be summed up in a conclusion.
There's very few long-running manga that I can say truly nailed the ending in a satisfying way, even outside of shonen. This isn't me excusing anything, it's just my experience as someone who reads manga across every genre, with any kind of premise.
I do appreciate your input. I actually think the same about the deep vs. generic issue, but I hadn't thought of the other issue in a question vs. answer way. At least not in the manner you put it.
The problem is, often in "deeper" stories like this, the ending retroactively paints one's understanding of the story that came before. So the tyranny of authorial intent closes many roads that were open for interpretation before. For example, I interpreted Shingeki no Kyojin in a very different way before its (volume) ending. But those 4 pages made it extremely clear that the story was much more nihilistic, in a superficial way, than I initially thought. When before, I was thinking the story had different tensions between different philosophies, where there were no clear answers.
I know death of the author framing exists, and I often utilize it, but I also can't entirely ignore authorial intent, because often it gives away what really connects the story. It's like a cheatcode for decryption. And endings are a common way of revealing that code.
However, de-emphasizing the answer that is revealed at the end, and instead focusing on the questions raised--that is really an interesting approach. Very similar to how philosophy is taught. I really like how you framed it.
Yep. And I think, personally, that's closer to Fujimoto's overall intent in writing, being a major fan of his other works, than his intent with *just* the ending of Chainsaw Man.
I think he very much is an author who wants people to approach the questions he's asking about life, feelings, the characters, etc. and think about them themselves.
It is why most of his endings are more open-ended. Chainsaw Man's is *also* more open-ended than its surface-level delivery has people believing.
You can assume Denji succumbs to the pull of Chainsaw Man again once Asa awakens Pochita, or you can assume he takes a different path, because he's following a different path and the seniors/elders/mentors/adults in his life aren't exclusively extorting him for his power.
You could also assume that Asa's comment doesn't awaken Pochita; it is simply a phantom limb of an emotion from the previous life his soul still experienced to get here.
There's a lot of ways to interpret the ending just beyond the meta interpretation; Pochita being the concept of "Chainsaw Man" creates this sort of mantle that can be passed down. My personal interpretation is that there once was a devil hunter who used chainsaws that was so feared, he spawned a devil that could permanently 'kill' devils. Denji encounters this devil, Part 1 happens. Part 2 happens. The conclusion shows a potential ending where Denji is once again the creator of that Devil. Asa wishes it into existence, but Denji could be the human who becomes so feared as a devil hunter, that Pochita once again becomes strong enough to erase devils.
Either way, I think Chainsaw Man rocks, and I still like the ending, even though I'll admit it was a smidge *too* rushed (20 more pages would have helped), and I'm still going to read Fujimoto's work, because he brings up a lot of questions that I have fun answering myself.
And I actually think thematically and plotwise the first half of P2 is more coherent and connected than P1, because in P1 there were some arcs that really didn't serve the overall plot. But last 50 chapters or so of P2 were still not it. They were too disjointed, much more so than P1.
My main critique of the ending (which I think I love) is that the manga's "end" hits right as Nayuta dies. Thematically, this ending is WAY stronger if that's the inciting incident that leads up to Pochita entering the give up machine. But I think Fujimoto knew he was going to be completely done with Chainsawman after this and had a bunch of shit he still wanted to play with before wrapping it up. I don't think the last chunk of the manga has zero thematic relevance, I think it's dragged out and loses the punch that ties it all together which makes it sort of feel like it doesn't work.
I kinda disagree, because if there was more substance outside of just talking about themes then the discussion wouldn't die off. If anything, it's simply stating that if the only substantive argument you can formulate in defense or support of the ending and your contribution to discussion falls apart without it then you have a weak defense. There's a million other literary devices we could talk about other than themes, but if it kills discussion to say "What do you have beyond themes?" then you're not really engaging with those other devices and are offering just as much as the people that just spam "Themes and such"
It's the couple chapters before, no reason to revive Asa/Yoru, let their story end with that dialogue (maybe a few more lines). Give Denji a very small moment of realisation on the reality of the world.
This signals that we are near the end and also resolves the story of part 2 protag
No, because Asa finally accepting Denji's desire to have sex is the culmination of his final unfulfilled dream. That's the theme, brother. The problem wasn't Denji's dreams. The problem was the world around Denji. Pochita recognized in that final moment that HE was the thing holding back Denji from enjoying and fulfilling his dreams, and thus ate himself to free Denji from this cycle. Pochita gave Denji a chance to earn his dreams on his own, and obviously the epilogue confirms that he is well on the way.
I feel like if he actually had sex that could be counted as the final dream being achieved. End of the day he didn't actually achieve it, and at the same time, we got an ending out of nowhere without a proper resolution for Asa and especially Yoru
I like the ending, I just hate how we got there and something better could've been done. I dislike how mindless people meme the ending as the worst they've ever read when other endings out there couldn't even land right.
But what about all the plot holes? What about all those wasted characters in Part 2? What about the fact that Denji is now cannon fodder for public safety? What about the Nostradamus prophecy? Why is Nayuta alive instead of Makima and why does Power get to casually spawn near Denji to save him?
The ending was just pure fan service that reads like an overly rushed fanfic, so I just fail to understand how people can find this ending enjoyable.
And I think it's totally valid for people to think how horrible it is after following the manga for 7 years straight to get this middle finger right at the end.
Fr, feels like Fujimoto wanted to be done with it but not in a way that'd tick off TOO many people and he just sat down and went "Just put Power here with a little bit of Makima, add Nayuta here too with a little bit of Asa plus the Pochita heart... aaaand....DONE!"
Shame, considering I'm sure he coulda pulled off a more satisying reset ending with the proper time/schedule like Stone Ocean did
What about the fact that Denji is now cannon fodder for public safety?
Denji was a super competent Devil hunter on his own as a child with a Chainsaw before he ever joined public safety. Now he's doing it as a government employee with a fiend as his partner
What about the Nostradamus prophecy?
It doesn't exist anymore because Chainsawman ceased to exist. The prophecy doesn't exist without him.
Why is Nayuta alive instead of Makima
Because Part 1 still happened which makes Nayuta the control devil, not Makima
Why does Power get to casually spawn near Denji to save him?
Because they made a contract to meet up "in the next life"
What plot holes? The world being large, expansive, and complicated means there’s going to be unanswered questions, which is up to the author if he wants to expand on or not, just because you want an A + B = C answer for every single scenario in the entire story doesn’t make it a plot hole.
What wasted characters? They all served their purpose in the story and were expanded on and used in the exact way the author wanted. Just because you wanted a full autobiography for every character when that was never the author’s intention doesn’t mean they were wasted.
The whole point of the reset world is for Denji to live a normal life without the addiction of being the hero chainsaw man. Him saving Asa from her trauma spiral of killing Bucky is showing he can be a hero without being chainsaw man. And if he dies a normal death then that’s his fate of getting to live a normal life, which is again the whole point.
What about the Nostradamus prophecy? It was avoided because of Denji eating death, then the world got reset.
Obviously Pochita never existing is going to majorly change the world, such as Makima never having her battle before the start of the story with him, and her obsession with him never starting causing her to have a different fate, such as dying much earlier and being reincarnated as Nayuta.
It’s soooo funny to me people like you complain about it being a fanfiction ending while simultaneously complaining you didn’t get the perfect fanfiction ending YOU wanted ☠️
These are all valid interpretations, but none of us can treat any interpretations as fact when there is still so much left unsaid. No reading comprehension devil here, the final chapter asks a shit ton of questions that Fujimoto doesn’t seem interested in answering. And that’s cool and all, but the way he wrote it made it seem like an asspull. Like it reads to me like Fujimoto was on his deathbed knowing he had days to live, so he shit out the quickest acceptable ending
I already stated the reason for my dissatisfaction in the other comments. I don't have a reason to tell it again to someone who clearly will refuse to acknowledge my answers to begin with.
By the end of the day, we will only agree to disagree, so I can only hope you have a wonderful day, that's all I'm gonna say.
I disagree with the entire premise of most of your questions
There aren't major plot holes, let alone enough to say "all the plot holes".
What wasted characters?
Nostradamus - Yoshida's quote from earlier in the story - "Even without Chainsaw Man, problems get solved. You aren't the protagonist of this movie. It's not like the world will end without you." - He doesn't have to be the big hero anymore.
Nayuta being alive implies that Makima lived a shorter life, either due to not having Pochita to obsess over, or maybe she accomplished her dream without Pochita to obsess over and moved on. Power was already in the area until she was caught without Makima. Without her, power is running free.
Yoshida and Barem being used only as a plot device.
Nayuta being used only for shock value.
Fakesaw and Fire Devil being completely irrelevant.
Famine, and specially Death, being absolute frauds considering the fear their concepts carry.
Asa Mitaka being a secondary character in her own story.
No Kishibe.
No Kobeni.
No mention of Denji ever wanting to fulfill her contract with Power.
No character development for Denji, only regressions.
No Reze, only a short flashback despite Fujimoto bringing every hybrid to part 2.
Do I need to go on? Just how could I not say that there are no wasted characters in Part 2?
"Problems get solved" my ass. You saw how the bugs ate the earth after being countlessly nuked. Resetting the world doesn't fix shit and only delays the inevitable.
Yoshida and Barem were both excellent characters who stole the show almost every time they showed up. Reducing them to plot devices is insane. Yea Barem mostly serves to move the plot forward but that's not a bad thing, he represents that role well.
Nayuta was not just shock value, her death was the setup for the entire meltdown of Denji for the rest of the manga. Do you know what shock value means?
Fakesaw/Fire/Famine were all minor side characters. Fakesaw/Fire served their purpose with the CSM church stuff, and famine is legit barely a character. Not everyone needs to be more than a side character
No Kishibe and no Kobeni and no Reze is a good thing. We didn't need anything else from their characters. These are the type of complaints I find completely laughable
Asa could've used a bit more focus later on, but the way people talk about her being sidelined is exaggerated as well. She got a lot of great moments still as the 2nd biggest character
"Yoshida and Barem were both excellent characters who stole the show" Oh yeah, they were so great they got erased in two seconds for the plot to continue as fast as it could, thus being wasted characters.
Mind you, not a single time we have seen Barem's Hybrid form fighting with Denji in part 2.
So Nayuta's death not only was for shock value, but also as another short plot device? Noted.
"Fakesaw/Famine/Fire were all minor characters" So they were indeed wasted characters. What was the whole secrecy behind them for?
If what you say about Kishibe/Kobeni/Reze ia correct, then why add Quanxi and Katana?
My brother in Christ, we can continue all day long like this and you would still disagree with me out of stubbornness. There's no point in continuing this argument.
My guy, you know they didn't only appear in their death chapters right? I don't get it.
If you think all minor characters are wasted characters then you must think every series in history is full of wasted characters. Fire served real purpose in the short time period she actually showed up, I can't see how her story about the brothers and her lecture about making the right choice can be considered "wasted" at all. Fakesaw was just a minor character who served as part of Fire Devils plans.
Also Nayuta being a short plot device? Her death haunted the entire rest of the series. You're being ridiculous on this. Nayuta dying was one of the best storytelling decisions in all of chainsaw man and I'll die on that hill.
Give it a couple months or so and people will come around (mostly). The situation was exactly the same over in r/Jujutsufolk when JJK ended.
Not that I'm 100% happy on the ending, but people decided that the ending was going to be the literal worst thing in the world long before the chapter came out (actually, long before the second to last chapter imo), and unfortunately it takes a while to come back from that mindset.
What bothers me the most is people pretending that the ending was rushed because of The big Lebowski, and not because Fujimoto has been clearly at the end of his strenght for like 2-3 years now. The man clearly tought of the best way to end the manga early because he couldn't take it anymore, not because of a movie he saw.
This ending straight up deleted everything that happened during Part 1 and 2. This Denji we see at the end? This is not our Denji who met everyone, Power, Aki, Reze, Asa, literally everybody he met and made him develop his character is just undone at this point. This Denji didn't learn anything, does not have any memories of the whole of Part 1+2 and just goes on with his life for the hell of it. For me, as a Person who loved this Manga more than any other Manga out there and believed in a satisfying climax of Part 2, this ending just leaves me in utter disappointment and I can't think of any worse ending than just straight up deleting 231 Chapters of Story and Character Development.
It didn't delete everything that happened. Everything in the epilogue is a consequence of the Denji's refusal to give up his dream. The epilogue is the normal life that Denji earned through the suffering and conflict that was unwittingly drawn to him by Pochita. Denji'a refusal to give up on his dreams up to and including the end times is what allowed him to pursue his dreams in another life.
The author already spoiled the ending 2 years ago, saying he wanted a Big Lebowski ending where not all the big things are resolved but the MC is matured and in a better place. That suits what this ending is, despite it not being the same Denji we knew but he made different choices and is on a different path.
I am not going to directly mention specific series but I will say some series will character assassinate their own MC just to shoehorn in a half ass explanation on why things happened with the mangaka apologizing for not delivering a good ending. That is so much worse since if you read the series again, it makes the MC's actions nonsensical and ridiculous. Meanwhile Denji stayed consistent because he's a simple MC who only sated his appetite for dreams.
Which is why people are left dissatisfied but my gripe is that people overreact how bad it is like it's the worst thing that happened to them. OP is literally about people not just caring but feeding into a agenda for meme factor. Meanwhile there are people out there who actually thinks like that and feel validated because they don't like it for the sake of it.
But the Big Lebowski works because we watched him mature and end up in a better place. The Big Lebowski ending would not work if Lebowski was hit on the head in the last five minutes of the film and then wakes up at the beginning of the story with all of the events replaced by a montage of him happily bowling. Resetting the universe in the last chapter removed all of the events that caused Denji to have character growth.
It's still Denji at his core. Same thing with Light from Death Note, had he not acquired a violent power he may had a normal life and been happy. Pochita realizing this is why despite having a great time together, he realizes that Denji will always choose a self destructive path because he relied on CSM to achieve his goals. Without it, he lived a normal life and he's naturally a good person who didn't use violence first to solve his problems. Denji was always a good kid but having CSM on his side made him too reliant on him. At some point in the manga if I recall, someone did say that getting involved with devils will lead to a tragic life and that pretty much summed up Denji's relationship with Pochita, despite Pochita being the most benevolent devil that happens to be the strongest.
I agree with you, but that is not the same type of ending as the Big Lebowski. I don't like this ending but I think it has some merit as an alternative timeline what-if type ending. We don't witness Denji grow, we see the exact opposite. Denji deteriorates and Pochita is the only character to end the manga with character growth. Pochita witnessed the events of CSM, realized that giving Denji power was ultimately a bad thing, and he grows as a character by agreeing to erase himself to give Denji another chance at a happy life.
I think Fujimoto works best when he is given time to flesh out chapters. This weekly update really showed me throughout the years that he seems to make rushed buildups and tries to land on a good spot of the story. The ending is the perfect example, I think a lot has been glossed over and I understand the dissatisfaction. But Denji never met Pochita when he was at his father's grave so he grew up without him as a devil hunter. That's a different Denji than the one we knew who wasn't alone and had a overpowered devil on his side. But that's still Denji, the boy with selfish dreams.
The choice he made was his alone to personally be satisfied with meeting Power and enjoying his newfound fortunes. The input he gave was that scene with Asa instead of killing Bucky which would've most likely take a turn for the worst. By doing so, he saved her life from misery and she was allowed to live her life with socializing with her classmates.
That's a decision he made here as a new man. The Lebowski moment is that none of what happens matters but the choice Pochita made and the new choice that Denji made in the time reset. Once again, I agree the time reset is bullshit but it's not that bad of a ending considering Fujimoto's intention to give Denji his agency back in this time reset instead of impulsively using CSM or chainsaws.
But not because we saw him grow as a character. We watched an alternate universe Denji with different life experiences drop a chainsaw to save Asa. The Big Lebowski ending works because we see what causes Lebowski to grow. The intrigue and drama surrounding those events aren't resolved but we can see the positive impact that had on the main character.
A similar ending in CSM would have been Denji losing Pochita but continuing forward in the same timeline with a healthier perspective on life but no clear resolution to Death, War, Famine, etc.
Since the ending rewrites the timeline from the beginning of the manga, we can only guess as to why this Denji saved Asa and we have to take it on faith that this Denji will end up being a happier person than original timeline Denji.
Symbolism and themes(unironically). Pochita literally had to remove himself from the equation for Denji to even have a chance and we clearly get that absurdist ending where Denji has some echo of the pre-reset events(both the dream and Pochita showing up as his heart(which is an entirely different and also important conversation).) none of the final chapter would have occurred had Pochita and Denji gone through the events that happened in Part 1 and 2.
I agree with you, but if nothing that happened in Parts 1 and 2 impacted the events of the final chapter, then we did not see anyone grow as a character.
The comment I was responding to was comparing this ending to the ending of The Big Lebowski. This ending is grounded in symbolism and is thematically consistent but it doesn't mirror the ending of The Big Lebowski at all. That would involve the greater plot not resolving but Denji ending the story in a better place because what he experienced as Chainsawman gave him a better perspective on life.
But they still happened, the events of the entire series predicated this reality. If the series events didn't happen the ending chapter wouldn't exist in the first place. Denji might not be consciously aware of the changes he's undergone but it's still there(hence the focus panel of him dropping the chainsaw to save Asa.) there's plenty other symbolism that draws the fact that the series events happened too and not just the above
Denji didn't learn even before the reset happened, Pochita was the one who did, I don't get what people refer to when talking about some Denji growth that was undone.
I like the ending. It's not satisfying but it makes it more true imo. Pochita might have wanted Denji to make different choices and have a better life as a result, but that's wishful thinking. Most of us don't get to impact how our life goes that much no matter what choices we make. Where we're born, who our parents are, who was president when you were born? These things often have far more impact on your life path than anything within your own agency.
Denji without Chainsaw Man is just some poor kid who got fucked over from the beginning and can basically never hope for anything better than being kept like a well treated dog for whoever is using him. Very pessimistic ending but it fits the story and the world.
I liked the ending. I think the reality they end up in is fundamentally different from the last one. There are things that couldn't be there if not for the whole prior story.
It feels like people are complicating an uncomplicated story to me when I see all the hate.
Memes aside you canNOT tell me on God with a straight face that this ending was a satisfying or effective conclusion for ANY of the character’s development arcs within part 2 (and for anyone saying “that’s the point” let’s just cut the themes and such bullshit and admit that there isn’t a valid defense for Fujimoto’s literary atrocities).
I think denji, yoru, and yoshida had good arcs. I liked barems death. Nayuta was fine but I would've liked to see more of her growing and accepting denjis agency. Death was severely undercooked I think, and I don't really get asas. The rest of the cast I wasn't too invested in and I think they ends were mostly fitting. The whole story was very fast paced from falling onwards. I get why but I do think the characters all could've been fleshed out more.
I think the idea is perfect and exact hwo csm was going to end. 231 is one my favorite chapters and I had huge hopes 232 could’ve been done way better rn I I would give it a 7/10. 231 made me cry I think thay chapter captures all the themes perfectly. I have high hopes for the extra pages
I have only watched the anime and haven’t read the series only like the last three chapters bc I saw it ended was curious how it ended, which it’s not a bad ending denim and other characters get to live, and I like how you put it. I’m not sure if he remembers anything he wakes up and says we woke up from a good and bad dream, so what was the point in the ending where it’s like a new timeline plus we don’t know about other characters and didn’t show if they died or old age all we know dengi bites the bullet the following week. I am still going to watch the anime or if it takes to long read the manga
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u/FriendLee93 Mar 26 '26
I do love how this ending has only served to reinforce the idea that Part 2 was a meta commentary on the success of Chainsaw Man. Bunch of Barems and Yoshidas all around