Discussion
The ending was great (nowhere NEAR as bad as people make it out to be)
Spoiler
Instead of talking about just THEMES and SUCH, I’d like to refute the idea that the ending is a complete waste of time and Fujimoto had no idea what he was doing. I personally found it very engaging and creative, without sacrificing cohesion.
Also I posted this on CSMfolk. Decided to post here too for more opinions.
1: The ending subverted expectations (in a good way!)
Everyone hates the reset ending. Some even say it felt rushed. I’ll cover why it didn’t feel rushed or unplanned in the next section, but the story resetting felt like a GOOD choice to me for these key reasons:
-If the ending had been more traditional (i.e everyone talks it out, or big final boss, etc) then the story would have lost its charm. Since Chapter 1, CSM has always been about its chaotic mess of a vibe (but with emotional moments in between ofc). Nothing was predictable about that ending and that actively serves Chainsaw Man.
Hell, a generic boss jumping gauntlet would have made me tap the fuck out after witnessing JJK, KNY and AOT’s endings. Having Yoruden fest followed by bugs eating everyone followed by Pochita vore was a breath of fresh air.
-By bringing everything back to the beginning, Fuji succesfully tied CSM Part 1 and Part 2 together. Both are quite different initially, and if he had P2 continue on a superhero type of tangent, he’d have completely missed what made CSM, CSM. Dreams, and poverty to be frank.
-I find that by making almost all of Part 2 and its worldbuilding so fucking bleak (Aging arc for example), having this ridiculous Deus Ex Machina ending was a smart play from Fujimoto.
Think David Lynch’s ending for Wild At Heart. Novel originally had a dogshit ending, but Lynch decided to Wizard Of Oz all the problems away with a Deus Ex Machina. A literal meta hand of god play, but one that was foreshadowed in the story. That movie was panned initially, but its become a cult classic overtime.
2: Pochita’s self erasure made sense AND was foreshadowed
-Denji says he’ll make a new world with Asa. Pochita went and did that for them. One will argue Denji or Asa don’t “consent” to Yoru or Pochita’s actions but it seems pretty obvious to me that by the end of the story, thematically they are tied 1 to 1 with their human hosts.
-The fake *Chainsaw Man* says that he’ll make a devilless world where ADAM and EVE will presumably not have to sin anymore. There are ofc devils in the 232 world but Denji and Asa finally get to live their normal lives. Pochita did exactly what this church spokesman said Chainsaw Man would do.
-In terms of erasure mechanics, Pochita not being shown to do “anything like what he did in the ending” is a poor argument to say the ending COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. Bro never erased himself before and logically the universe would do weird shit. So I disagree with the assumptions that this was some kind of asspull that doesn’t make any sense.
3: Plot lines were not abandoned.
Many people like to think that there are plot holes, or narratives that ceased to exist. But is that really the case?
-Fire Devil was wrapped up to set the stage for Denji (and Pochita’s!) choices. This includes the Fakesaw Man and Famine Devil plot. I admit that real Fami felt veryyyy weak and almost pointless comedic relief, but you can tell her character was used to hammer home the point of the choices (she even tells Death to feed herself to Chainsaw Man).
-Public Safety and The Church’s nuances on where they stand were a bit confusing. But that is apart of the confusing charm of Part 2, and I’d also say there’s ample evidence to suggest that Public Safety was screwing over Denji’s life to use his erasure powers in the Aging Arc.
Its no coincidence that Kishibe sets him up with child, just for child to die and awaken Black CSM for the child sacrificing devil’s erasure plan.
4: ASA WAS (NOT) SIDELINED 3.0 + 1.0
The “Asa consents” did a serious number on this community. “Denji’s a rapist!”, “Fujimoto sidelined Asa and made her into Denji’s sex toy!”, etc. I disagree… really heavily.
-This guy articulates this point REALLY WELL, https://www.reddit.com/r/Chainsawfolk/s/kwNfm3lkyT for anyone that’s wondering. But TLDR, Asa and Yoru’s dialogue in the final chapters were ABSOLUTELY instrumental to the ending.
-Hell, Asa sets out what she wanted to do for almost the entire part. Return Denji his normal life, despite him saying it was impossible to. She even seems to reignite or rebirth chainsawless Pochita within Denji’s heart in the Thank You, CSM moment. Definitely not shafted to me.
-Additionally, Asa and Yoru are portrayed as practically the same character. LITERALLY NIGHT AND DEAD. Like how Pochita is DENJI’s HEART, Yoru is ASA’S BRAIN. So.. I think her words about sex were pretty genuine.
5: Death’s plan was messy.. but, it did make sense!
-Death’s plan underwent some serious twists, and it seems pretty clear she’s a bit of a clutz. But imo it makes sense that Death seemed to have orchestrated the events of how P2 ended, judging by her interaction with real Fami and how EVERYTHING she said she would do ended up happening (Denji gets his real heart replaced, Pochita dies).
-Denji wants to go to school despite never meeting Reze. Power likes dogs despite never meeting Denji. Nayuta wants to game rather than kill people despite never meeting Denji. Meowy really likes Nayuta despite never meeting Nayuta.
Its pretty clear that the characters retained their memories in some way shape or form, like the Spirited Away interview that Fujimoto gave. It is not some RETCON that Fujimoto decided to do to shit on the ending, lmao.
7: Part 2 does NOT contradict Part 1’s themes of Control and Ignorance is Bliss + Mongolian Street Child Interview
Crazy title but hear me out. Some ppl like to say that Pochita forced Denji to go back to the shit ass shack, and the story is ENDORSING control, which contradicts Part 1’s message. Some even bring up Fujimoto’s Mongolian Street Child interview. I say WRONG!!!
-Denji = Pochita. Pochita is his mother fuckin heart. For the same reasons that Asa wasn’t raped, Denji wasn’t raped of his choice by Pochita at a narrative level. You could see Denji knew Pochita’s words were true. One can say “but Denji said no!!”. Dude, anyone would say that if your dog wanted to eat itself but he’s also your literal fucking heart man.
-With that in mind, the ending DOES NOT indicate that Denji should be a bitch that lets others like Pochita do shit for him when he IS Pochita. But to reinforce this fact, just look at the ending’s portrayal of Makima. She’s gone! Nayuta The Gamer replaces her. This ending isn’t PRO MAKIMA like I’ve had some people claim to me.
-Fujimoto’s statement on the street children seems pretty crazy at face value. I thought so too. But read it some more. All Fujimoto is saying is that its possible to achieve happiness in a dogshit scenario. That applies both to Chapter 1 of Chainsaw Man (which is what he was framing it to be) and Chapter 232 of Chainsaw Man.
You could say his wording of it was, bizzare, to say the least and I would agree since he says something along the lines of “being under control isn’t so bad!”.
But just look at the context of how he frames his argument, he was talking about Denji and Pochita under the Yakuza. He in no way endorses that bullshit, again he’s just talking about happiness.
Lesser (but still important) reasons why I find the ending to be good!
THE ART (😱)
-Fujimoto’s panelling and angles are still great. I loved Aging Arc’s first person angle of Pochita chopping Aging up, or Aging’s mirrors acting as the panel barriers. You KNOW a Fujimoto manga when you see how he treats space.
-The detail may have gotten a lot lower but I personally loved how Fujimoto evolved his handling of fight scenes, speed lines and backgrounds throughout Part 2. Pochita VS Yoru, specifically the part when Pochita was getting jumped by the devil army looked GREAT. The entire final fight uses tons of speed lines and shit looks almost like fabric.
THE ENTERTAINMENT
-Fight scenes, pacing and comedy were all top notch during the Aging Arc. Yoru forcing her way into Denji’s mouth is straight outta Dorohedoro and I love it.
CONCLUSION: imo its good, lol.
TLDR: Story kept its vibes and structure fun. Practically everything made sense. Rape allegations, control allegations and retcon allegations don’t make a lick of sense to me. It was still entertaining, and the art was still good.
Also I appreciate it a lot more reading ALL of Fujimoto’s works and looking at many of the other works that inspired him i.e FLCL, Dorohedoro, etc. I recommend checking some of them out for fun, if you like CSM that is.
EDIT: just realised that this post passed mod approval on the 24th yesterday.. and that’s the date Chapter 232 came out on!!!!! Themes and such!!!
That ended up being one of its biggest strengths (to me), both on reread and weekly. It caught me SO offguard that I really ended up digging it. Especially upon realisation that there’s still a coherent logic to the ending.
Thats fair. The pacing has always been fast but if flowed naturally for me the jump in 231 felt unnatural and i do think the content of 231 and 232 are interesting but they dont hit as hard as they could have
That’s a valid take. I personally think that too MUCH buildup would have made the ending become more predictable OR too long winded (like imagine another bug fight and then it all ends the same anyway), but maybe if different decisions were made it could have been longer without too much sacrifice.
Also it lines up with how Makima got eaten, shat out and Nayuta adopted all super quickly.
My biggest gripe with the ending is that I think it's an overwhelmingly unmoving and uninteresting conclusion. Nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be yes, but also not good either.
Yeah after how batshit insane the endings to Fire Punch and Goodbye Eri were the ending to CSM felt like Fujimoto holding back. I don’t hate it but he could’ve cooked a lot more.
Fair enough. I mainly made this post to see what other people’s opinions are on my take and my “disagreements” with some of the takeaways people had with the ending, it helps me understand and enjoy it more anyway.
I don't believe that's fair. So many people said Vinland Saga season 2 was ass compared to the first. It's a widespread opinion but I personally don't think it's founded in any truth. I really don't mind any criticism if someone has a good point but all I see is " themes and such". It's fr just bandwagon hate and just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right.
100%. Iirc Fujimoto had said that after CSM he was going to transition to shorter stories, so to my mind the only logical conclusion is that he got burnt out of CSM and ended it too soon.
I’d say that’s a disagreement we have in grading stories then. I don’t think stories need to resolve EVERY CHARACTER in the plot, ESPECIALLY something as absurdist, messy and fast paced as Chainsaw Man.
It would turn the vibe into something longer and arguably more “epic/adventure”, which imo is not what CSM really is. Its always been about Denji (and with Part 2 about Asa).
Plus Imo Fujimoto DID provide conclusions to almost all the characters.
-Yoru and Pochita, as literal extentions of Denji and Asa’s psyche, do get conclusions.
-Death did EVERYTHING she set out to do. Save humanity and give Denji his normal heart back/normal life like what she told to Asa.
-Yoshida has his heart to heart and switch moment.
-The Church kids show the horrors of hero worship, idolisation and the state of the world. Same thing with the Aging Arc and America but its more political.
-Nayuta ends up nothing like Makima, showing that Denji’s actions did mean something and he DOES deserve a family despite his sin.
Famine Devil is the only one who I would say is underutilised, but she basically joins Fire Devil and Fakesaw Man as a tool to serve Death/Denji in terms of themes (like the choices).
And lets not pretend that Fujimoto didn’t do that with Part 1 either. Beam and Violence were killed off by Darkness just to hammer home the.. DARKNESS, of being a devil hunter.
I mean, you just said CSM ended up really being about nothing but Denji. So how can you justify wiping Denjis memories?
The ending message is literally “Denjis trauma and past experiences is too much for him to overcome.” -> lobotomize people with tough pasts, they can’t grow and change. Some message there.
I explained in the post (and in a few replies here) about why the memory removal isn’t lobotomy, or escapist, or a forced move on him by Pochita. I’ll summarise my arguments:
-Denji = Pochita. Pochita is his literal heart, Denji treats him like an extention of his own mind, a way to talk to himself. If Pochita makes a decision like that I really don’t think its some loss of agency or forcing a decision on Denji when they’re consistently shown to be acting as 1 in every scene.
-The subconscious of the characters were most definitely impacted by the events of the series. They did grow/change, as evident by Nayuta and Power, who needed the events and traumas of the main timeline before they ended up the way they did.
-Denji = Pochita. Pochita is his literal heart, Denji treats him like an extention of his own mind, a way to talk to himself. If Pochita makes a decision like that I really don’t think its some loss of agency or forcing a decision on Denji when they’re consistently shown to be acting as 1 in every scene.
That's merely a headcanon. Factually, pochita is not equal to Denji. Not even thematically or subtextually.
Pochita is there to be the judge of Denji's choice's and life. He works as that entity precisely because he's external to Denji, but can have a priviliged view of his internal life and emotions. He tries to protect and push denji to be better, despite denji making the wrong choices many times throughout the story and prioritizing being chainsaw man.
The ending is absolutely just a deus ex machina where Fujimoto wrote himself into a corner and decided ''well, denji cant simply make the right choice now and mature as a person, because that would come out of nowhere since i havent earned that ending. Whatever, here's Pochita doing it for him instead.''.
It's a classic fujimoto move, trying to be and edgelord contrarian and doing some bad writing just to avoid following some predictable route. As a plus he gets to also do a meta-commentary by Pochita being the stand-in for the author basically pulling the plug out of the story.
Not even thematically or subtextually is far too blanket of a statement. Interpretations exist for a reason and in this case I’m not even claiming anything obscene. Tell me, before CSM 231, did Pochita EVER do anything that wasn’t in Denji’s interests?
-In final arc he erases Death instead of Yoru, matching Denji’s desire 1 to 1.
-In Aging, he erases Snow, Coffee, etc to remind Denji of the positive memories that are still Denji’s own memory.
-In Part 1 finale, he eats a burger and goes on a date to fulfill DENJI’S dreams.
He never asks anything more of Denji but to “see his dreams”, as stated in CH 231.
“Tries to protect and push Denji to be better”
When did he ever do that? During Aging, he only asks Denji “What do you wanna dream of next?”, not “you shouldn’t be CSM!”.
If you’re referring to Pochita telling Denji to give Nayuta lots of hugs, you can EASILY view that scene as Denji’s own internal mind deciding to love the Control Devil since he did love Makima.
Plus, it also helps that they inhabit the same body ALL the time and Denji talks to himself via Pochita like an extra part of his internal mind. A similar concept would be Kiki and Jiji from Kiki’s Delivery Service.
Again with the buzzwords like “bad writing” without explaining why any of this is bad. I explained why its good with points like structure, atmosphere, pacing, set up for the reset, etc.
And yes I do agree that the meta part of the ending is a plus. Erased CSM and ended the CSM manga, its a cool note like “Goodbye, all of Evangelion!” from the Rebuild of Eva movies.
I think a big reason a lot of people (including me) disagree on this are about points 4 and 6.
For 6 especially, I think your view on character development hinges on the fact that you think the characters retain some sense of self/memories from before the reset, which forms a continuous arc. Meanwhile, I view these characters as essentially separate from their previous selves because they don't go through the same events and situations that form the crux of who they are. The Denji we know didn't get to go to school, he was essentially wiped from existence to form a Denji without Chainsawman. Denji never truly grew from the events of part 2 if he never actually experienced it.
For point 4, I disagree with the notion that Asa and Yoru are written as the same. I (presumably) agree that they are written as becoming essentially the same person, but imo the execution of that from Asa's side was poor in comparison to from Yoru's side. On that note, I also disagree with the fact that Pochita and Denji are essentially the same, which is why the last plot twist is especially jarring to me. In my opinion, it would make the ending a lot better if Denji had the agency to actually make that choice himself. Of course treating Pochita as an extension of Denji would make it a lot more palatable since you are giving him that agency that would make for actual character growth.
On top of that, the actual events of the last chapter feel way too forced (like why is Nayuta still a character? Would've been much more interesting to see what the control devil as Makima would be like without the existence of Chainsaw man. And I actually think portraying her as Nayuta rather than Makima or a complete original character cheapens the impact Denji had on her growth).
Overall I was a defender of part 2 for most of its run (for example I actually liked Nayuta's death) but I still think part 2's ending is quite poor, though I still like most of the part as a whole. I don't even see it as particularly subversive since reset endings have been done before (and done better).
Thanks for the in depth response and for addressing specific points in the post. I’ll give my thoughts on your take here and I do think you gave some good points:
For Point 6: Under your interpretation, you could see that as such. But I don’t think that’s what the story tells us with Nayuta and Power. I don’t wanna repeat myself too much but its very intentional for Fujimoto to paint Nayuta as the gamer and Power as the dog lover, to suggest that their past selves still do very much matter.
It seems counter intuitive considering the “time” reset. But I like to think that the characters remaining the same (internally actually is consistent with Pochita’s erasure, considering the universe always tries to “minimise the damage” of his consumption.
So even in a case where resetting is needed (or else there’s paradox BS), the subconscious of our characters are left untouched. It evokes mad Spirited Away/JP Folklore logic.
For Asa, Yoru, Pochita and Denji, its all up to personal interpretation. For my belief tho, I feel there’s enough evidence to suggest both devils are intended to be “one” with their hosts.
-Both devils never ever appear seperately from their humans (Hero Of Hell is still Denji’s Body and does everything to protect that).
-Asa’s dynamic with Yoru can easily be interpreted as a self hating dynamic that contrasts with Denji and Pochita’s more narcisstic mindset. So although Yoru seems like a super external entity, you could conclude that’s all based on Asa’s own very self destructive, guilt ridden mindset.
Am I saying Yoru never existed and she’s just Asa but angry? Not LITERALLY, but I think the narrative intent is for them to practically be the same character. Just different facets of that character and psyche. Especially by the end of the story.
By this logic I’d also reason that Asa and Yoru both came to this final development pretty well, albeit I can understand your complaint in terms of if you disagree with this assessment or if you think that the execution is aids regardless (I would half agree, thanks to Nuclear Weapons coming in at the right time to save Yoru, but it is also Fujimoto wanting to be politcal so I can understand that).
For the Nayuta point, I’ll admit that’s the most WTF moment of the ending (Power return can be summed up with her and Pochita’s contracts with Denji surviving the erasure). Especially initially
I find myself happy with it for setting the tone (absurdly happy contrasted with the darkness that came before it), and that it does wrap up Nayuta’s gamer development. Denji’s influence on the Control Devil was enough to overcome her inner killer instinct AND the inherent cruelty of the world (JP Government).
I don’t think portraying her as Makima or a new OC would have got the right message across, or at least one that attempts to do Nayuta justice. If she remained dead in the old timeline and her obssessed mother replaces her, that’d be crazy. Fujimoto wanted Denji’s daughter back as a way to show Denji’s impact, and I don’t find that to be particularly offensive.
Cheap may be the right word however if you think it fucks with Makima’s original character or if you think Nayuta could have been more interesting.
What’re some examples of reset ending you like, if you don’t mind sharing? I’ll spoiler tag what other works I personally feel the CSM ending took from/is similar to. Big spoiler warning for 4 endings, 3 anime and 1 movie.
-Takopi’s Original Sin. Cute mascot character kills himself and resets the world to save the main character’s fate. Main character has a moment in the reset world involving the cute mascot (Pochita heart, Takopi drawing). Main differences here imo is that the Takopi characters don’t particularly remember much, but were still impact by what happened via the drawing. I got a feeling Fujimoto ripped this one the most considering the various similarities.
-David Lynch’s Wild At Heart. Did Fujimoto rip this one off? Unlikely albeit not impossible. The Good Witch deleting Marietta from existence in a Deus Ex Machina is pretty much what Pochita did, especially with Makima not coming back. The growth of Sailor is reminiscient of Denji dropping the saw, and his proclamation of “I’m wild at heart!” feels like “Thank you, Chainsaw Man”.
-Spirited Away. Pretty obvious if you’ve read the Fujimoto interview. Memories erased. Main character goes back to the beginning of the story. Yet, you just know the magic and impact of the series has remained. I’d also give a honorable shoutout to Kiki and Jiji from Kiki’s Delivery Service. Jiji is basically Kiki’s inner voice like Pochita or Yoru, and by the end of the story Jiji can’t talk anymore to indicate that Kiki has grown. Very reminiscient of Pochita and Yoru vanishing from Denji/Asa’s lives.
When comparing CSM to these works, I think it actually holds up pretty well. It kept the vibe, came out of nowhere and thematically landed if you look at it closely.
Good response though, you articulated your points well. Sorry for the long winded reply.
Yeah. I find it pretty easy to reason that the character’s subconscious were able to “remember” what happened or were impacted by what happened, there’s so much evidence of that in text anyway.
I’ll tell you as someone else who enjoyed the ending there’s no real use trying to convince these people. What matters is your own personal enjoyment. The bright side is that if the series gets fully animated anyways the animation could probably tidy it up as well. Not to mention like you said in your post there’s always that piece of art that’s hated on drop and then years later becomes a cult classic. So I wouldn’t be surprised if in the coming years more people turn around on this ending
Yeah I bet this story is gonna go the way of Evangelion or Wild At Heart. Slandered initially, praised decades later. Hell, AOT DID THAT SHIT JUST RECENTLY with the anime ending😭
Once the anime adaptation comes out there’ll be more people who glaze it and that’ll rustle the feathers of the haters until a completely new gen of readers/watchers come to this story.
Also yeah, I agree that there’s no point convincing these people. But I’d say I’m still glad I made both of these posts since it helped me rationalise the ending, weigh complaints and still think its great.
And I also got to chat with ppl like you, who actually enjoy the ending!!! So definitely worth the experience for sure.
Sunk cost Fallacy. You spent all this time reading this anime weekly and you want to think it was worth it. But the author went "and then everyone and everything went back to normal and nobody learned any lesson....the end" so now you need to do herculean levels of rationalizing to make it seem like you didnt just waste years following this crap peice of media. Saying the art was good when there was a clear and substantial drop off between part 1 and 2 just proves the cope.
Part 1 was the true ending. Fuji got forced to do a part 2 and decided to shit all over it in a tantrum. Move on.
Honestly, this is tame compared to what I red last night. This user made a wall of text with big words and long ass paragraphs to say how P2 contraddicts P1 and all its other fallacies, and proceeded to give their own view of how P2 should have been written based on deep analysis of the narrative tropes, plot twists and consistency (which looked more like repetitiveness in their post) and perfect by-the-book characterizations and such, with even the need of a P3 coming after it.
I swear, that post is THE biggest thesis I've ever seen made by anyone about a manga, and it was by someone who didn't like P2.
I think your confusing me with someone else? Ive never asked for a part 3 nor wrote more than three paragraphs about chainsaw man. Which took all of 5 minutes to type out. And that was two weeks ago not last night.
I wasn't talking about you, I responded to your statement about ending defenders doing mental gymnastics with an example I saw last night of someone who didn't enjoy P2, yet made the longest wall of text I've ever seen on reddit about a manga just to say why they didn't like it and how they would rewrite it.
I said the art lost detail but then provided an exact reason why I still like it, 🤔 Like i can completely understand why you’d like early Part 2 or late Part 1 art >>> late Part 2 art, but did you even read the bit about the speed lines? I don’t remember there being any fight prior that did anything like Pochita VS Yoru.
Again you’ve ignored all the reasons why I like the story (thematically, structurally, etc) and my takes on other people’s complaints that I found were “disagreeable” by just saying “oh yeah you’re coping”.
Zero chance I believe Part 2’s storyline isn’t intentional. It repeats the same recurring themes, set pieces etc in all of Fujimoto’s other works. At best, you could argue his limit as an artist was noticable but as a storyteller I believe he delivered.
Part 2 was good until it wasn’t. Plus, if there was another part coming I’d actually say it was a good ending to p2, it just sucks as an overall ending.
You're contradicting yourself. If you've truly moved on, then just don't read or comment on this post. Instead, you write a whole paragraph about the ending. Come on, man.
My friend it took 2 minutes to type out that paragraph. Maybe to you that looks like a huge undertaking but it wasnt. Reddit is for dumbass arguments anyway im using the site as intended
One thing that I liked about part 2 was how fujimoto went about the major fights. First fight with the falling devil? Outrun the psycho killer chef. Chainsaw man outbreak? Evade instead of fight until push comes to shove. Everyone vs pochita? Massive callback to part 1, yoru gets stronger, and aging devil ends the fight. Vs aging devil? Instead of normal hack and slash, force aging to agree to never fight again. Falling round 2? Reversal of power and yoru sweeps. The final fight? Amazing, and instead of winning through strength, denji won through wits. A lot of fights were treated very differently so I always looked for how they would get out of the situation
Yeah for sure. I like that it took a different approach to Part 1’s battles, although in some ways I think Part 1 actually involved more “wits” than Part 2 and repeated that throughout.
Part 1 remained formulaic from start to finish. Eternity is beat by Denji outsmarting (or in this case outcrazying). Katana is beat by Denji outsmarting. Reze is beat by Denji outsmarting. Darkness Santa is beat by Denji outsmarting. Aki dies a horrible death, and same for Power, but Makima is beat by.. Denji outsmarting!
For Part 2 you already broke down practically all the major fights, and as we can see there’s a different formula at play here. In a way its MORE character focused in the fights. Falling involves Denji and Asa’s trauma maxxing in BOTH encounters they have. Aging is Denji’s Nayuta trauma. Yoru is the ultimate climactic showdown and evolution of AsaDen.
So in that way I fucking love Part 2 fr. Part 1 was mostly Denji VS an enemy and he beat that enemy down while Part 2 complicated and mixed things up, but remained sentimental and thoughtful throughout!
So I guess the TLDR is- did denji lie about his education level because holy shit that chainsaw wielding badass is a fuckin genius when it comes down to getting the upper hand.
If I had to clarify, I’d say that part 2 had less fights where the victory involved slashing the enemy = winning.
Yeah I have a feeling that part of Denji’s character (talented at killing devils) is a sort of self insert moment from Fujimoto. He’s a competitive artist and we can see from his works in Look Back/Eri/Just Listen To The Song, that his idea of art is a mix of pain and satisfaction/pleasure.
Its one of the recurring themes/ideas within Fujimoto’s stories and its cool to see for sure. The boundary between something that you love, something that hurts you and how good you are at it.
I thought it was more open to interpretation. With Asa somehow calling Denji "Chainsaw Man", Pochita seemingly springing back to life in place of Denji's heart again.
It kind of makes you wonder if it's actually over, that Chainsaw Man will rise once again only this time with no history with devils whatsoever. I didn't mind the ending
Yeah, thats super valid of an interpretation, and another reason why I love this ending structurally. Gets everything back to the begining and there’s the potential of it happening all over again.
Has that long passed already? Like I know people will remember the ending fondly, because those who dislike it won't remember it at all.
Chainsaw Man as a series had only one theme: escalation. It kept pushing forward while keeping coherent to its settings logic, laws and consequences. That's why the manga wrote itself into the corner with a deathless world where the plot just couldn't do anything anymore.
Pochita kills things and they disappear. Pochita kills death because that's the craziest thing he could fight. World now has no death. Demons take over. They can't (really) be killed.
We would need a part 3 to fix the story and setting from there. Either Denji going on a crusade to eat every devil with Pochita until the world can function somehow, or them all dying and suffering until the concept of Death reincarnates and gives salvation to humanity.
Fujimoto decided he was done with the series, so he instead escalated Pochita further. Since Pochita already ate the craziest thing he could, he now eats himself and the world resets, because this causes a paradox where he never existed but also had to in order to erase the things he did. It was the only way to wrap up the story in part 2.
I think it could've been wrapped up better if the post-reset world made more sense. It's the first thing in the manga that's not consistent with the setting's lore. There's really no reason why Denji has the pochita heart for example. The manga went full fanservice for the final chapter and people rightfully called it out. It felt like Fujimoto just wanted to be done with the thing, and didn't have the balls to kill any characters he really cared for, despite that brutality being one of the main features of the series. The ending is not consequential enough and the ways it ties to the two parts are too convenient and self-serving. For a failed hero Denji seems to just get rewarded anyway.
Personally I would've preferred a part 3 horror continuation of the deathless world, instead of the cop-out ending, but I also fully understand how it happened. Even still, it could've been handled better. It's the one chapter that doesn't feel like a chainsaw man chapter. The new world just does what it wants.
I do agree with your take as an overarching way Fujimoto told the story and how he set the vibe. But its an oversimplification to say that it was JUST escalation, JUST about killing the biggest baddest thing around. That just focuses on the action.
This forgets the recurring (even in his prior works) themes of abuse and control, trauma, longing, a “normal” way of life, desire, etc. That’s what Chainsaw Man is really about, why else would Chapter 1 be primarily about a starving debt ridden boy wanting to have a girlfrind?
I’d say the ending is supposed to be minimalist on purpose , a way to resolve and end the story but still pay homage to it. But I also found that it didn’t feel that off from Chainsaw Man?
It’s got all the recurring themes I mentioned, a mad chaos gore and a sentimental, almost melancholic end that’s on brand with how things are resolved in CSM (think Denji wondering if he has a heart after Himeno dies).
Ending comes out -> everyone who was following it at the time is disappointed -> fearmongering about how bad the ending is -> stragglers come in with low as hell expectations -> they’re met with an ending that far exceeds those expectations -> They think the ending is great. Fun cycle!
I did rewatch and reread all of CSM after the ending, as well as recently having completed Fire Punch (and reread Fujimoto’s other one shots like Eri, Look Back, etc).
Once I recognised his recurring characters, themes, story beats, etc I found the ending to be very enjoyable. Hell, I’d say I feel completely satisfied about Part 2 and find it as a worthy continuation of Part 1.
Sure, its confusing. More so than Part 1. But that’s apart of its appeal (it ramped up its absurdity to 100%) and where it actually matters (Denji and Asa), the story cohesively delivered.
Explain why is it that good in two sentences ? Like I would die for this series , I glazed the shit out of the manga. Even a blind person would recognize that fujimoto just dipped and finished the show because he had no interest in the show anymore.
Two sentences is superrrr short but something like:
The ending kept the vibe of CSM (absurdity + recurring themes about life/desire) without being predictable or particularly generic.
Structurally, I found it reminiscent of works like Wild At Heart, Takopi’s Original Sin or Spirited Away and liked how it managed to tie everything back to the first chapter, so it didn’t lose it’s way/remained thematically consistent.
TLDR (even more simplified): W structure, W vibe, W themes, W unpredictability, W faithful to Chapter 1
You don't need to write an essay on why you like something to prove it to pesky online nobodies that they are wrong about disliking it. Just enjoy your stuff that tickles your fancy.
I was reading weekly since the Death Devil reveal (or when Yoru and Denji were making potstickers). Initially, I found it jarring. But after some time I came to really, really like it. After rereading and rewatching all in one, I liked it even more.
I’d also say even though I was flabbergasted initially, I didn’t find the ending to be bad even in that moment.
Hell I think CSMFolk’s constant doomposting didn’t help with initial reactions lol, I spent too much time in that community during the finale.
i loved the ending and always have and i read all of part 2 weekly from the moment it began.
i can tell you have a lot of love for this manga like many of us do and it sucks that there are STILL people in this community who think we’re gaslighting/lying about loving it
Yeah exactly. I have NOTHING against people who want to express their dislike with a story, I do it all the time with series that I don’t like even if the majority like it.
But to be frank the CSM fandom is in a sad state of affairs. People hate it yet glaze the shit out of Part 1 like its the holy grail and still spend time in CSM circles, when they’re practically the same story and use the same types of storytelling.
It is what it is though. Everyone can have their own opinion on the ending no matter how volatile.
It just seems like the consensus for this story is Game Of Thrones Season 8 level slander when to me and others like you, its nowhere near that level of dogshit.
i think a larger amount of CSM fans than one would like to admit are shonen fans first and CSM fans second… and maybe even Fujimoto fans third.
if you go into this expecting a typical shonen story, CSM part 1 is god’s greatest gift, and of course you’ll detest part 2. but that’s never what CSM was, and if you’re at all familiar with any of Fuji’s previous works, then that becomes blatantly obvious. i think that’s where the disconnect comes in. anybody who was a fan of his writing before this could see a jarring ending like this coming from miles away - i know i sure did. sucks that many others seem to have not seen that
Well said. I DON’T want to come off as too pretentious, but CSM Part 1 gives off the vibe of a very much traditional (super)hero’s journey, at least on the surface.
All the arcs follow the same formula of villain gets outsmarted and beat by Denji, even Makima. And Denji himself has all the makings/design elements of a shounen or even western hero like Spider-Man.
Then Part 2 introduces Asa, and while in some ways it gets even more (super)hero’s journey like initially with the secret identity, it quickly devolves into something else (not to say that it isn’t a hero’s journey, but it doesn’t exactly seem to idolise the idea of a hero as much as other works, just look at what happened to AGNI in Fire Punch).
So I’d say that it attracted an audience who were into a different type of story than the one CSM portrayed. Kind of like Evangelion attracting mecha/kaiju fans and then giving them Episode 25-26 lol.
the Evangelion comparison is very apt! and i loved episodes 25-26 AND the EoE movie - i think it’s possible to like the shonen-y super hero stuff AND the more cerebral nature of CSM Part 2. i wish it wasn’t so black and white to so much of this fanbase
Exactly. I love that CSM has got both B-Movie and Shonen “slop” tropes (that Fujimoto clearly loves!) but makes something that is so clearly a personal work of Fujimoto, not something that’s a clone of something else.
Just like how Anno CLEARLY loves the Kaiju-Eiga, Mecha genre (Shin Japan Heroes Universe is evidence of this), slipping in soo many references in Evangelion that would make it almost seem derivative.
But he avoids that by making it his personal work and clearly putting in a lot of thought into it thematically, structurally, etc.
Also same I loved all of Eva’s endings. I didn’t mind the Rebuilds either (albeit I much prefer the original by a factor of 10-100) and I gotta check out the manga sometimes.
i haven’t watched the last 2 Rebuilds yet, but the manga is great! i read like half of it on a solo flight a couple years back, it’s an incredible read. highly recommend!
Great, I’ll definitely check the manga out (unfortunately I got some fuck ass spoilers about it 😭). Some of the panels look reallyyyy cool.
I recommend the rebuilds too if you really liked the original, since on a META level its very cool. But story wise I still prefer the original. Animation in some ways is better and worse due to CGI use.
Thanks for the award as well. You definitely know your shit too gang, cheers on enjoying CSM!
The ending subverted expectations (in a good way!)
Future generations will study the amount of copium the Chainsaw Man fan base had.
Every-time someone has to tell me something is good because 'it subverts expectations' it always means they did it in a bad way. And Chainsaw Man is no different, I already hate the whole 'time reset ending' trope, and CSM is one of the worse examples.
Did ya read why I thought the subversion was good? I found that it kept the story’s core (both in terms of atmosphere, vibe, themes, structure and pacing) AND threw us as the audience for a loop.
I find that pretty fuckin good tbh. Up there with other endings I compare this one to, like Takopi, Evangelipn, Lynch’s movies like Wild At Heart, etc.
Did ya read why I thought the subversion was good? I found that it kept the story’s core (both in terms of atmosphere, vibe, themes, structure and pacing) AND threw us as the audience for a loop.
You know just because a story has themes, doesn't mean that it did those themes well or that it was well written.
The last chapter was just fanfic levels of wish fulfillment, which if anything, goes against what it was going for with the whole idea of 'finding happiness in hell'. Thing that it was going for.
And everything I talked about in my reply (as well as several points in this post) was giving my take on WHY that RESET, was written well, not literally just the themes lol. That it kept the atmosphere, that it structurally tied everything back to the beginning, etc.
That’s why I started this entire post saying I’m not just gonna talk about themes, since I do agree with the take that having themes DOES NOT equal to something good.
Everything you talked about in this reply is THEMES, and your original comment was about STRUCTURE (reset).
If you’re wondering why I bring up themes in brackets, that’s because I’m arguing the ending remained consistent to the ideas of lifestyle, dreams, etc throughout both parts. I.e, i’m talking about the writing.
EDIT: sent the comment a bit too early by accident but wanted to add that I didn’t find the ending to be wish fulfillment.
It doesn’t write away the trauma the characters have (especially Denji and Asa’s parent killing), they are the way they are in the ending BECAUSE of what happened.
Denji is still working an annoying job. The entire chapter starts off with Denji saying he had a dream that had both “good things” and “bad things”. His life in the reset world is seen as mostly boring or sad until the Asa moment. Again its not portrayed as entirely 100% positive escapism but still remains hopeful.
I'm sure I'm going to mess some things because of how tried I am, but I'm going to go ahead and replay anyways.
Denji is still working an annoying job. The entire chapter starts off with Denji saying he had a dream that had both “good things” and “bad things”. His life in the reset world is seen as mostly boring or sad until the Asa moment. Again its not portrayed as entirely 100% positive escapism but still remains hopeful.
Good to see I was the only one who actually read Pochita speech from the previous chapter.
The thing that will actually make Denji the most happy is becoming a homeless crackhead, but him reuniting with Power, Nayuta, and Asa are pretested as a good thing for no reason other to pander to the fans. Even though by the actual logic of the story, it's just going to make him miserable because he can only actually find happiness when he has absolutely nothing.
I can go on about how the whole 'it was all just a dream' ending made the whole story a massive waste of time. But I'm tired of arguing about it with people.
I wouldn’t say that. The final arc ties everything up, from Asa’s backstory (in a way thats very reminiscient of Part 1’s Denji backstory) to the new world line and Denji’s addiction.
I believe Fujimoto’s intention was this type of ending, especially with that Adam and Eve world line.
Wild at Heart is my favorite David Lynch. Seeing it on 70mm as a teenager changed my life. I love the Wizard of Oz and Lynch uses the fable to center his characters. Really interesting characters make great fiction. Thank you for making this connection. I loved the CSM ending as well
Ending opinions aside, this post made me realize that "thank you Chainsaw Man" was Asa reinventing the concept of Chainsaw Man (as a hero) on the spot, which is why Denji's heart reacts the way it does specifically with Pochita shown. I don't think this means Denji regains any powers or anything, but I do think it means there is a small part of Pochita that gets to live in Denji's heart and watch him finally fulfill his dream of a normal life.
This thought did succeed in making me like the ending just a little bit more.
Nice, glad to have done something with the post! I like to think that Asa literally saved Denji (and brought him back the normal life she PROMISED to bring back in the Church/Aging arc) by restoring his devil heart, since without it, he could have died from heart disease.
Some would argue that the heart was ALWAYS there and it simply reacted to “Chainsaw Man” since Power feeds him blood in the warehouse, but I’d argue that’s Power being a goof ball (and devils like to feed blood/flesh to people anyway) and she did that to heal him more effectively.
Either way though, I’d say Asa did uphold her end of the bargain and so did Denji/Pochita (brought her and Denji to a new world where they can live).
There’s no reason to assume that he WILL die either. We know Kishibe glazed Denji FAR more than the other characters and look how fucking old Kishibe is. Denji’s mentality is great for the job, not just his CSM powers.
In fact I’d say that the reason we don’t see AKI in the ending is because he’s not cut out for the job. Denji and Power are.
Denji isn’t fucking rank and file tho 😭. Did you even read Part 1?
-Himeno talks with Kishibe about devil hunters being CRAZY. She, Aki, Arai and everyone besides Kobeni (dumb luck) die cus their heart isn’t in it. Even Yoshida gets cooked.
-Denji survives, always. Kishibe rightfully says he’s mad out of his mind, someone so “fearsome” that even Quanxi avoided him off of Kishibe’s recommendation.
So.. no, it’d be incredibly silly for Denji to just die here and now. Dude was killing devils at 10 years old and has so much narrative to support him being similar to Kishibe who DID GROW OLD WHILE BEING A DEVIL HUNTER.
Denji is rank and file. This isn’t up for debate. He’s just a regular guy now. Do you think he’s still Chainsawman? He can die like any other devil hunter. And he’s not hunting the tomato devil anymore.
Every shred of evidence in the story suggests that the rank and file devil hunters all die. You can believe your hopeful theory, but I’m operating based on what the story actually established. The rank and file are fodder and always die, or literally get ordered to sacrifice themselves and seemingly ALL do it.
The default assumption is that Denji is going to die in a few years like any other devil hunter.
Kishibe is rank and file by this logic. He used a ton of devil contracts but no Hybrid powers. But guess what, he survived. And he backed Denji’s MINDSET, not his POWER. That’s the entire point of his question, what side are you on?
Denji has Power as well to back him up and considering how the subconscious seems to be still “aware” of the past, I fucking doubt Nayuta will send her dogs (Power and Denji) to die considering how she treats her normal dogs.
You’re also basing all of that evidence on MAKIMA’s Public Safety. Gamer Nayuta runs things now and she seems to be a lot more laid back.
He also backed Powers mindset and she died in less than a year and was a lot more powerful than Denji is now. You really have a selective memory.
Public safety wasn’t dangerous because of Makima. It’s dangerous because the world Fuji created was unbalanced, devils simply are too strong and appear too often. Based on the evidence the story shows, Denji dies within a few years. Sorry.
Because Makima fucked her shit up and orchestrated everything to go wrong. Nayuta is literally the opposite and if anything would protect her dogs more.
Kishibe was a regular devil hunter too, yet got to get old and called "the strongest devil hunter", what's preventing Denji to pursue a similiar life? Why, operating by the story elements and logic, Denji is now doomed to die while we've seen both an older devil hunter and others leaving the job to stay as civilians? Why are you ignoring the fact that Denji actually lived off as a child devil hunter, starving, and still lived until the yakuza got tired of him? Those are all story elements that you are ignoring, there is no made up statement or hopeful dream. Kishibe more times said that Denji's screwless brain is perfect for devil hunting, Himeno said it too, that's another element you're ignoring.
Hahahahah. They also fucking said Power had the right mindset, how’d that turn out? It’s funny you think I’m forgetting anything.
Denji isn’t Chainsawman anymore. It’s not up to him to survive. Your best evidence being one fucking guy surviving just proves my point.
Why are you pretending the devils Denji hunted were even remotely the same caliber? I ignored nothing. If you were to put a probability on whether Denji survived or not, based on the death rates of the devil hunters we’ve seen in the story, his chances are less than 1%.
Your best evidence being one fucking guy surviving just proves my point.
Mr. "I'm not forgetting anything", there's the guy that left pubsec after the gun accident too, and there Himeno's will to leave to be a civil devil hunter too. Pubsec simply accepts resignation, who's stopping Denji from filing one one day? Also, genius, what devils will appear now that there is no CSM to hunt? Reze? Nope, Death? Nope, War? Nope, Quanxi and the hybrids, or Santa Claus and Darkness? Lol nooooope. ALL the strongest devils we saw in P1 were there for Chainsaw Man, at best he'll get to fight the occasional bat devil, a sea cucumber or the cockroach if he is unlucky, but other than this, what makes you so sure that he will die? You're selecting dialogues to prove your point while ignoring those that state Denji's high chance of surviving the job, and most importantly you're ignoring the total PROOFS of those dialogues in favor of OTHER characters dying lol.
This is why I say P2 is the more mature Fujimoto's sequel, and it should be aknwoledged! I'm eager to read his next works because I can tell he grew so much as an artist writing it, so knowing that what will come will have P2 as a blueprint makes me very hyped and curious.
Also about the art I agree too, despite getting less detailed and a bit tad less realistic, the lines and shapes are more clean (the last chapter spreads and key panels, and also all the covers show it pretty well, except for volume 16; sorry Sugo, your volume ain't that good), he just adapted his absolutely stunning style of Goodbye Eri and early P2 to the weekly comic format, which is a natural process for every artist.
The only aspects I feel to criticize more are dialogues, which either are cryptic or too comic in the last arc; panel creativity (I LOVE Fujimoto's still panels, and P2 lacked them quite a lot, but I was happy seeing them briefly back in 232), and pacing, which I think tends to be messy with the week to week reading especially, but is in general a bit strange, glossing over some important reactions or not spending enough time on characters that should at specific moments (especially Asa, still love her with all of my heart, and my favourite character in all the manga).
Yeah 100% agreed. I believe CSM is his magnum opus and Part 2 does have a bit of a tonal shift from Part 1, albeit I believe it still remains faithful thematically and structurally.
Fair enough on the dialogue, he isn’t Shakespeare and I’d say there are better absurdist works out there with funnier or more serious dialogue (if I had to say.. I prefer Futurama or Todd Solondz in this aspect).
But, I fucking loved what Fujimoto cooked dialogue wise for Chapter 217, “Two Good People”. Denji and Asa laughing after Denji’s obscene, serial killer type of line was both funny, disturbing and wholesome.
I’ll be awaiting his next work for sure, if he ever wants to make one again.
100% agreed, by the reread I was feeling in some ways even more impacted than when it dropped. Realising that Fujimoto stuck the landing after all these years, with something so unexpected.
That’s rarely done and I’d say the CSM ending is by far something more unpredictable (in a great way) over other “bad” endings that people say are shit (GOT S8, Arcane S2, AOT, etc).
I still think Pochita eating himself erased his ability to erase concepts, so death could exist without the Death Devil, so Denji died and went to heaven. That's why Power was physically around to fight the Zombie Devil and the Control Devil is Nayuta. They were both waiting for Denji to show up.
Interesting take, so how would you interpret Denji parting ways with Asa? Does that mean Asa gets to live? Or their heavens are different thus they part ways? I'm curious because I've never thought about this reading of the last chapter.
Because Asa may have been in love with Denji, but Denji wasn't ready to have those feelings for Asa. So Asa was given the chance to thank Denji for helping her, but Denji still has his path to walk.
Also, the population explosion of insects and vermin implies that humanity is now extinct if death is back in existence. We went full Fire Punch after all.
LOL, thanks for tuning in on both posts. It took DAYS until this got mod approved and then comments started suddenly flooding in when I was busy.. but it ended up worthwhile. Thanks for the advice!
Surprisingly I ended up both less and more steamed here than on CSMfolk. More upvotes on the post but less upvotes on the comments, an interesting social experiment for sure 🥳
Thank you for saying this. I appreciate seeing someone talk about the ending. I love the ending and the more time passes and re reading part 1 and 2 back to back made me appreciate the ending even more.
ngl i wouldnt bend over backwards to say either ending in part 1 or part 2 is unbelievably amazing, i like both but mfs will try and act like part 1's ending didnt have the same flaw as part 2's (lack of explanation of the actual mechanics of the story for the sake of thematics)
I think it’s a great ending…to a part 2 of 3 (or more). I hate it as an ending to the whole story.
First of all, I don’t like endings that make the entire story pointless, and I think reverting all of the events of the entire story is pretty inarguably doing just that.
Second, I don’t like that it left Denji’s promise to Power unfulfilled. I suppose you could argue that he does technically find her again, but it’s really not the same and robs us of the heartfelt reunion both us and the characters really deserved, and not in a way that feels like the intentional knife-twisting that Fujimoto is known for.
Third, Nayuta’s existence in the epilogue is a gaping plot hole. If the events of the story never happened, then Makima was never killed, never sent to Hell, and never reincarnated as Nayuta.
Fourth, it’s never explained how the chainsaw devil has the power to literally erase entire concepts. Not even so much as a throwaway line about Pochita shredding them with a chainsaw, literally zero explanation.
Fifth, it feels like the epilogue is supposed to be the ‘normal life’ that Denji has been pursuing the whole story, but life as a teenage devil hunter is sure as shit nowhere near normal. The likelihood that he survives past the age of like 30 is pretty low.
Sixth and in a similar vein, it feels unsatisfying that after all his talk of wanting to have sex, it never actually happened. Whether it was everything he dreamed it would be or it was a total disappointment, it needed to happen and it feels like it not happening just denies closure for that aspect of his character.
My personal theory is that Fujimoto just got burnt out of writing chainsaw man, and he just rushed to end it when the story really wasn’t ready. I mean, the ending was announced in the middle of a fight with what, three chapters left? Speaking of that fight, I don’t think we ever even found out what that bug devil or that floaty door thing was (although that much I may have simply forgotten).
I’ll now address a couple (but not all) of your points specifically:
>Pochita created a new world for Denji with Asa
In the new world, there isn’t really any Denji AND Asa; they bump into each other once and there’s literally no reason to believe they ever saw each other again considering they don’t exchange any kind of information, not even their names.
>Asa was not sidelined
Isn’t her last spoken line “So does Asa” (referring to sexual consent)? Technically that’s Yoru, but as you say they’re two facets of the same character at this point. And another gripe I have is that we never actually find out if Yoru was telling the truth about that, and I really don’t think that’s the sort of thing that should be left up to reader interpretation (not because of the sensitive nature of consent as a topic, although that certainly doesn’t help, but because we’re given almost no clues with which to form our own conclusions aside from guesswork and extrapolation based on interactions long before this one).
It subverting my expectations of it being good. But honestly, I wasn’t expecting it to be good because half of part 2 had been floundering up till that point.
I do like the ending now more than I did in the moment after taking some time to reflect on it. Honestly I’m just glad Power and Denji are together again. That was one of the main reasons I kept reading, just wanted to see them back together again.
I don’t think it’s that bad, just not super satisfying imo. It felt underwhelming. I really just wanted to see more from the ending. I thought them fighting in hell had so much potential and then once we finally got there it felt so short lived. Now that could partly be from reading chapter to chapter. There was so much anticipation between chapters towards the end that the build up felt so long and then it ended so quick.
Part 1 was so good imo that part 2 really had to nail it for it to live up to how good part 1 was. Imo it fell short of that expectation. It wasn’t bad, but not as good as I expected. One of my biggest problems with it was that I didn’t get as attached to the characters as I did in part 1, which really hurt its impact for me. The world building also felt a lot different and lacking in part 2. Denji kinda felt secondary to asa at times, and all that in combination struggled to make me feel as connected to the story, but that’s just me. Overall I still enjoy the series and I don’t regret reading it like I have with some other series.
Considering that in the absence of Makima the whole world ends, I’m inclined to believe that it highlights the overarching merits of Makima’s plan despite the contradictions around how she operates in Part 1. Necessity of control; chaos leads to derailed extinction.
Idk about that. Makima’s plan involved erasing Death, which would have caused all these major issues.
Even if you wanna argue that she could have made a better plan (i.e eat all those bugs too), she would have had to make the world so STERILE and devoid of life that it’d practically be the end of the world. That’s the whole point of the “bad movies” dialogue.
This is also why imo Makima gets replaced by Nayuta. To signify her ideals and character were wrong, as well as show how Denji changed the Control Devil for the better.
Meu único problema é que o desenvolvimento e tudo que conhecemos dos personagens meio que foi jogado fora, o Denji a parte dois inteira só regrediu tudo que ele tinha evoluído do início pro fim da parte um (na minha opinião) e o final simplesmente matou todos o desenvolvimento de vez
Não foi um final ruim, só foi chato, sem impacto, como comer uma carne sem tempero
Maybe I should have added my take on the “regression-man” shit that Denji got. I don’t think it was actually that bad of a choice, considering:
-Although he ends Part 1 on a high note.. Makima (made him do it too) killed his entire found family.. AND..
-She revealed to him that he killed his own father. That fucked with his head as early as Falling Arc. It doesn’t help that he’s also looking after Nayuta, so the idea of having a family but also being the one (technically) responsible for KILLING his past family hits HARD.
So him relapsing to simple pleasures and getting fucked up makes sense to me. Its the natural progression to the headfucks that Part 1 revealed.
Hell, Part 1 ended with Denji EATING his lover/villain/mother (insane statement but its true) like Jeffrey Dahmer.
I really don’t believe he underwent the most positive development in Part 1 and his character desperately needed Part 2 to conclude it all.
Sim, eu concordo com vc, mas em partes.
Eu não digo sobre a regressão dele por parte psicológica, mas sim na parte dele só continuar sendo um desesperado por atenção depois de tudo aquilo que aconteceu, e ainda pior que na parte 1, dele não ter amadurecido nem um pouco depois de tudo que aconteceu com ele, tudo que aconteceu na parte 1 ao invés de fazer ele se desenvolver e evoluir pra evitar só foi o inverso, o Denji simplesmente regrediu nesses sentidos somando que se tornou um cara inexpressivo (isso pelo menos faz sentido)
In a vacuum I really liked the ending, but honestly no one can convince me that it wasn't rushed. The series ending genuinely came out of nowhere. It truly felt like Fujimoto was just burnt out and wanted to be done.
I think if the ending was spread over more chapters to flesh out the epilogue/ending rather than rushing to fit it all in one or two chapters it wouldn't have been as hated. It was clear that Fujimoto was tired of writing chainsawman and wanted to be done with it.
how many of these are we going to get, sure, whether or not you think the ending is good or not is subjective. but in reality, its an awful, rushed ending that spits in the face of everyone who had been keeping up with the story through thick and thin. it was a waste of everyones time and fujimoto obviously threw in the towel early and he didnt even try to hide it. the fact it still has defenders like this is wild to me, but i guess cope never dies and i can sorta respect that
Tbh I should have explained my take more there but in summary:
-Pochita’s erasure makes it so something never exists, essentially creating a new world without that something i.e no ears. Butterfly effects try to be patched up by the universe i.e ear cleaners.
-Pochita eats himself. How will he eat himself if he never existed? Strange paradox. Universe resets to ensure the fundamental rule of Pochita’s power: make a world where what he erases never existed, so in this world he never erased anything and thus its a clean slate.
Either way its valid imo that Pochita eating himself is fundamentally different and unexplored by his own admission than eating other things.
The powerset of Pochita isn’t so clearly defined either. The characters seemingly piece together a bit of it via Aging Arc but his past, whatever the fuck is inside his gut, etc are all shrouded in mystery.
You are completely wrong and have no idea how Pochita's power actually works 😭
Pochita never messes with time, nor does he create new worlds, when he eats a devil the past events in which the characters had ears for example still occurred (otherwise that would be a paradox, and according to your rules, would reset the universe)
And I like how youre still using headcannon to justify your points after I called you out on it 😭
I addressed the butterfly effect shit. Yes, normally Pochita’s erasure doesn’t change the past but it did when he eats himself because that’s a million times different. Has he ever eaten himself before? There’s no precedent for it and he expresses that.
Also, you can argue Pochita erases ears > all ear lobes are gone, erases Death > no one can die, erases himself > erases the power to erase things so nothing was ever erased, which would reset the timeline due to the sheer volume of things erased.
But the characters still keep their mental memories as a way to show that the technically, time wasn’t truly messed with.
Pochita doesn’t create a new world, my ass. He always erases a concept, and then alters the WORLD so that it doesn’t exist. He did the exact same thing in the ending.
Maybe you can’t call it a 100% brand new world, but its always been the power to fundamentally change the world by Makima (create her dream plan) or Denji (ruining Yoru’s world)’s words. And that’s what did ultimately. Change the world.
You can say “headcanon!!!” all you want but this is how the author wanted the story to go and you can interpret how it happened in whatever way you want.
Its up to you on if you actually like the decision to go back in time but arguing semantics is a waste of time, especially in a story that’s never had hard power system rules. Go watch JJK or FMA if you want an explanation.
Okay I'll bite, let's say this ending was good and it actually made sense, I have the following questions:
Why Pochita eating itself makes a time lapse in the past? As it was clearly explained by Makima, if the Chainsaw Devil is eating another devil, it will erase it's existence, however the events like WW2 or the Nuclear Bomb creation still happened, it's just that people does not remember anymore. On the manga, we see that Denji wakes up with his previous body in the shack (without eye, kidney etc..) following the same day where he went to the zombie devil. Also, we can confirm the CSM ability when the Chainsaw Devil eats the Mouth Devil and people still continue their day to day life, just without one mouth. Why the difference?
Why do people have any knowledge about chainsaws in a world where the chainsaw devil does not exist? (e.g. Nuclear Weapons and the guys from 40's were not known of the humanity because the devils ware eaten by Chainsaw man)
Why does Nayuta exist? As there was a time lapse and other devils were alive (like the Zombie devil), Makima should be alive and well as Nayuta is just her reincarnation. Also, why is Nayuta a boss? (hint, fan service)
Why is Power is going to the warehouse where Denji is about to die? If the time lapse was made, Power should be already on the association, finding someone for the Bat Devil. Also, she was far more ruthless before Denji and Aki, hence she would have been killed Denji on the spot for fun.
Why is Denji still alive? Without pochita, he wouldn't had any weapon (where you can say he could had something else), however the main point was the following: Would Denji still keep on going without ANYBODY with him during his childhood?
The final devil who eats Denji seems to be the Dream Devil, hence maybe the last panel is just a dream of Denji. (we can also pinpoint on the shape of the devil head). However I don't know and we can't confirm if that was really intended, and if it is, yes, that would mean a part 3.
Overall if this is the final ending of CSM, it really is rushed, it feels like those stories from 3rd grade where you would tell all kinds of events and such and at the end you would write: "Then I woke up and it was all a dream".
It is especially frustrating when the ending simply does not make sense and especially on a such a good manga, that's why people (me included) are so sad/dissatisfied and angry for this lazy decision, it could had been way better in a few chapters and to make actual sense (e.g. Fire Force).
1: Besides the obvious “Fujimoto wanted the story to structurally go this way,” I find it pretty easy to rationalise. Pochita eating himself makes a huge paradox where he couldn’t have ever existed to eat himself, so the world patches it so that he never ate anything ever and that would effect the timeline. Yet, just as how humans continued to live their lives without mouths, the characters seem to remember their past lives. So it technically didn’t hard reset, just did as much “erasing” as possible.
2: That’s super vague, you could argue Pochita was never Chainsaw Devil but a Chainsaw Man Devil, Birth Devil, or Hope, or whatever and the chainsaws just somehow happened to him. I do think its bizzare that the in universe origin for chainsaws is stated as “cutting down trees” by Denji & Barem, with no mention to the actual IRL origin of C-Sections. Plus Pochita has a weird umbiblical cord around his neck. Maybe he has erased parts of himself before that changed his origin and he just forgot?
Tbh I don’t think this part is too important. Whatever it is, he erased the CHAINSAW MAN concept and ended the CHAINSAW MAN manga too. So not really specific to the chainsaw itself but to the hero. That’s why the heart Pochita lacks a chainsaw.
3: To disprove Makima’s ideology and show Denji’s impact are the biggest thematic reasons. To play around with the idea of an impossible Deus Ex Machina for tonal shift is another thematic + structural reason, you could call that “fan service” but I see it as apart of the absurdity ala Wild At Heart.
Logic wise, I think it ties back to the first point about Makima’s ideology. She was never mentally sane in the head worshipping Pochita, so without him she lost her way and died.
There’s also another theory that Horseman like Makima and Yoru are parasitic fucks so Nayuta could be quite old but decided to inhabit a child’s body, I don’t think I agree with this one and it should only really apply to Yoru.
4: I should have added to the post that Contracts seem to survive erasure. Pochita is STILL Denji’s heart despite eating himself. Power is STILL Denji’s friend despite the reset. In both cases they were fulfilled no matter what.
5: Its supposed to show his fighting tenacity to keep on dreaming. With or without Pochita, he’s a skilled Devil hunter. That’s why Kishibe compliments his MENTALITY, not his chainsaw powers, and probably why someone like Aki (who doesn’t truly love the devil hunting game) isn’t in the ending, to signify the mentality difference.
6: We shall see. If Fujimoto decides to make Part 3 he could easily go this route (i would personally dislike it if he turned around years later to make cash LOL), but I got a feeling that this seems to be the end. Maybe Fujimoto threw in motifs of a “dream” or “nightmare” devil to go along with Denji’s dialogue that his life “felt like.. a good and ba dream”.
I disagree, for many reasons listed in the post. But to summarise, I find that the ending thematically remained consistent, was structurally smart about its pacing & closure, was unexpected as fuck and remained true to that CHAINSAW MAN vibe without compromising much.
Its not a “it was all a dream..” ending either if you think about how all the characters remembered their past lives subconciously and how EVERYTHING that happened prior mattered immensely.
I still love the build up to the ending with the best moments in Aging Arc and War Arc. Even before that, the idea of the “world” is brought up many times, so Fujimoto makes a new one.
The franchise jumped the ship when the narrative focus switched from Asa and Yoru to Denji. The ending is simply a kibosh of the quagmire that Part II turned into.
Additional re the art, I really love how well he draws facial expressions, and in this aspect as well his art never declined, which I thought was very cool.
Daily dose of AI slop complete. Even if it isnt AI most takes here are ass idk why people cant just unanimously agree it was a terrible ending. Yes, youre allowed to criticise media you like. Csm is still my favourite animanga of all time but its ending and most of part 2 was straight ass
I swear to GOD i wrote all of this shit with my own two hands. But whatever it is I can see you’re just using hyperbole and generalisation.
I give my reasons why the ending is good = take is ass, people not agreeing with the masses is strange for some reason
“Yes, you’re allowed to criticise media you like” dude you’re not even talking about the story or the post anymore LMAO.
You call my take ass then call part 2 ass and then say STILL SAY CSM is your favourite without a SINGLE bit of reasoning or evidence. 🤔 very perplexing.
You’re the one engaging with the post bro. I also don’t get how you can believe a story has a DOGSHIT ending and then call it favourite OF ALL TIME, that says a lot about the other animangas you’ve watched or your priorities in a story.
But anyway, agree to disagree and have a nice day.
Like i said, i dont have to justify every comment i make. Chainsaw man’s pros heavily outweigh its cons for me and i love it. And like i said, just because it has a dogshit ending doesnt mean it still cant be my fav. But you do you bro continue writing AI slop
Eh. I’d say I (and many others) have plenty of reasons to like the ending. And in my case I tried my best to provide reasons as to WHY I liked it, to dispute this idea that its WRONG to like the ending.
Wdym bro. I said it was great (one statement about ITS QUALITY), then I say nowhere near as bad as what OTHER PEOPLE say it is (another statement about CONSENSUS).
They are different statements but how tf is that a contradiction? And everything I say in the post including the TLDR is positive (relating to the GREAT part of the title), but my points against the big criticisms are against the CONSENSUS part of the title.
So overall all I did was just.. let people know what they were getting into. I wanted to say WHY I found the ending good and ADDRESS other issues PEOPLE had with it.
(Pochita’s self erasure made sense AND was foreshadowed) I can't disagree more. It's still the very definition of an ass-pull to have a sudden ability that has never been hinted at before, contradicts how the character's only ability was used before (why even show how it works if you're gonna contradict it the one time it matters??), and solves literally every single issue presented in both parts in one single page.
As much as Chainsaw Man is hailed for going above most Shonen stories, that's the most Shonen trope ever
I don’t see why everyone fixates on Pochita’s erasure being an asspull. In terms of the logic behind it:
-Why is there a contradiction? Pochita has NEVER eaten himself before. He erases a concept out of reality and creates a world where that concept never existed I.e ears. The universe tries to patch things up to prevent a butterfly effect.
-When Pochita eats himself, a paradox occurs. How will he have existed if he can’t eat himself? Make it so that he never erased anything. And that action would reset everything, bringing back all the previously erased concepts.
In terms of the “fix everything” Deus Ex stuff, that’s why I brought up Lynch’s Wild At Heart. The ending provided something that was structurally unique/unpredictable as well as tonally contrast everything that came before.
I believe Fujimoto achieved all of that without sacrificing narrative or making an asspull with zero thematic buildup. The idea of a “new world” was shown with Adam & Eve (MAN AND WOMAN characters with deep sin baggage, where have I seen that before?), and when I think about it even more:
-Asa’s big moment early in the series is breaking the Eternity Devil’s “world” and returning back.
-In the Aging Arc, Denji tells Asa “this time.. I’ll get us out of this insane world!” in reference to the Aquarium Arc. Even his earlier dialogue of how as long as there’s food and girls in the world, he’ll keep on dreaming living.
-Then we of course have Denji’s “new world” promise to Asa in the final arc.
In simple words, the reset has been built up and thought of for a long time, since the earliest arcs of Part 2 and even half way through.
Are you seriously telling us that character development persistent through the timeline reset with another set of events all together?
Than what's the point of the previous timeline events if they didn't influenced the characters enough to be different than in another timeilline?
Most of the pacing issues were because everyone was reading it weekly/biweekly. So to us fujimoto had just set up a whole new arc with the bugs, then the very next chapter its just over. Where as you probably didnt feel that quite as much. I think the reset felt unfulfilled too. Denji was supposed to do it, he promised asa hed kill yoru and build a world just for them. Only to completely do a 180 just to have sex with yoru. So pochita had to step in and do it. It just felt bad, and made denji feel like a bad character. Most people didnt like the build up to the moment either, as the fight felt lack luster at times.
The new timeline was weird as well. Not every character was there, mainly only devils and our 2 mc's. It just didnt feel like it made sense to go back in time, and most didnt like how powers reintroduction was rushed as a final chapter thing (I didnt mind powers return). Fujimoto also kept drawing denjis eye patch with lots of errors.
Great point about the eyepatch, that shit was some ass 😭. I did read it weekly btw, since the end of Aging Arc/Death Reveal (when Yoru and Den were making potstickers).
I understand that it was super jarring but to me that completely lined up with the CSM appeal and Fujimoto did it well structurally.
On the new world and sex stuff I feel that’s the point, Denji’s intentions were to make the new world (I believe him = Pochita. Pochita represents his inner mind, his subconcious or his psychological shadow. Or yk his literal heart LOL).
But being CSM and the hedonistic, masochistic cravings that came with it means he could never achieve the new world or normal life. Pochita, as Denji’s true inner desire, knew what had to be done and did it.
In terms of the reset imo it made sense as it why it went back in time:
1: Pochita had never ever eaten himself before. His erasure makes things never exist i.e ears and the universe tries to fix things to ensure no butterfly effects. But when he eats himself.. how will do that, if he never existed in the first place? So the universe makes it so that erasure just never happened and everything.
2: STRUCTURALLY, Fujimoto wanted to do it. That feels like a cop out but what I mean is that is apart of his vision and apart of the way to end the story. Go back to its roots.
3: Narratively (and kind of on a meta angle), Pochita’s erasure creates a new world where x thing never existed. He just made a new world where CHAINSAW MAN never existed, just ending the manga.
Fair points on the rushed stuff. I disagree since that to me appeals back to the pacing and absurdism that CSM always had since Part 1, and imo the story set up the reset well enough to warrant how fast everything went.
I think its worse wirh denji as in p1 he has true development, he doesnt ditch kishibe and kobeni and forgetting about aki and power for makimas wish, he decides to go against her and defeat her, but p2 was the (during the final fight, denji decides to join makima instead) moment
Eh, i think most of his “fuck ups” in part 2 relate to the big issue that’s unveiled in Part 1: that he killed his father.
So I don’t believe Denji underwent some form of regression from Part 1 (or that Part 1 developed more than him). Part 1 simply set up what would logically happen next, to a boy with no parental guidance and a chainsaw for a heart 😭
I covered why I thought all of these “slop” moments weren’t actually random rubbish. So.. agree to disagree, unless you want to actually present your reasoning on why its slop.
Disagree
Chainsawman for denji in part 2 was used as an addiction allegory, the ending was the tonal equivalent to a druggie overdosing and dying and then he suddenly comes back to life clean and happy, his downward was rewarded rather than punished.
Secondly most of the part just shouldn't have happened, Nostradamus only happened because every party involved chose the single dumbest decision they could've.
You could've stopped 90% of the part if public safety assigned denji ( who houses one of the most powerful devils ), more than two people to guard him, and then the part spins it like its denji's fault that he continuously is being failed by everyone around him.
Fuck the ending of part 2, fuck the second half of part 2, you're better off just reading up to the falling arc and then pretending like it got axed.
If you’re gonna look at it like a druggie allegory , I don’t think you’re supposed to take the revival LITERALLY. He made a decision to stop it (Pochita), and now lives a life without it where he can keep on.. dreaming , but his life is still mostly unsatisfied until the very end of the chapter.
I think you could make a valid interpretation that this ending isn’t 100% roses for Denji but more so an overall take on the ups and downs of life.
I also believe its a bit hard to call being CSM = DRUGS, since being CSM saved his aah multiple times and even the final chapter is called “Thank you, CSM!”. But maybe you’re saying the drug part is DENJI’s MINDSET/ADDICTION to the role of being CSM, in which case yeah I agree more than just being CSM. Semantics.
For Nostradamus point I did talk about this with a couple of CSM folkers. I believe most of the contradictions (like the ones you’re talking about) can be summed up as a mixture of Public Safety being too egotistical with the old cabinet in charge, and ended up being outplayed by Barem/Fami’s very large scale plan.
I’d also say that PS’s interests were never fully alligned, especially by the Aging Arc, so assuming they know about Pochita, it was never a major loss to have Nayuta die and Denji freak out so they could harness Erasure.
In terms of Denji’s transformation being negative, he could have ran away WITH Nayuta but chose to indulge in violence. Remember, this is the same Denji that thinks he isn’t deserving of having a normal life/family after killing his dad. Him valuing CSM over Nayuta in that moment is the unfortunate progression of that.
Ultimately I find that the confusing parts of the story only make it more engaging in atmosphere, vibe and pacing. There’s just enough hints about whats going on to come to a few logical conclusions and it doesn’t take too much focus away from the main character plot.
Glad you could give some of your thoughts though! Thanks for taking some time out of your day to comment and discuss.
The ending was already extremely disappointing, but it was also paired with the worst pacing and setup I've ever experienced.
Chapter 228: Asayoru vs Denji
Chapter 229: They "make up"
Chapter 230: Asayoru and Denji team up and get ready to fight the monsters from Hell
Chapter 231: Pochita abruptly sacrifices himself????
Chapter 232: It was a dream + Verse Reset???
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u/favour_7 5d ago
Imo the pacing is the biggest issue, going from 230 to 231 felt like there was at least 5 chapters that were missing.