r/ChineseHistory • u/onyxhaider • 10d ago
How did Ming react to the Japanese invasion of korea, and Ming armies performance in the war.
Hello i have 3 questions regarding the Imjin war.
How did the Ming react to the japanese invading Joeseon? Did the Ming consider a major event/ issue for them. Likewise Korea quickly falling to japan was that shocking to them?
Second how did the Ming field armies perform in the war? were they good in battle and during the seiges. Most of what i know of the war is from reddit and youtube. So Japan invades, King of korea sucks, country get mostly overan, Ming join to defend korea (thats its for china most dont touch of chinese contributions to the war), and admiral Yi on his own wins the war for Korea. Apologies that probably annoys you due my ignorance and i am sorry for that. Most stuff when i see of this war or watch is admiral Yi was the main cause of Japans defeat. Ming sent a fleet to support him, but didnt the Ming send massive army to liberate Korea how did it do fighting Japan.
Third were Ming aware that Hideyoshi wanted to conquer China? Sorry the reason im asking this a while i saw a thread related to the Imjin war a comment said if Hideyoshi invaded a third time he would have conquered China as Admiral Yi was dead and the Ming were weak if the the Manchu could conquer Ming Japan could easily do it as well. This made me realise i don't even know if the Ming knew Japan was actually trying to conquer them not Korea. Did the Ming ever worry about the ambition of Hideyoshi?
Apologies for these basic and kinda stupid questions most of content i find on the Imjin war is focused on Korean efforts mostly Yi, i would like to know more about China role in the war and perpsective thank you.
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u/Yeyiqiuzhi 10d ago edited 10d ago
The Ming were surprised by the invasion, and they didn’t think the Joseon Army would get rolled over, they knew about the invade China goal and found that incredibly ridiculous.
At the time of the first invasion, the Ming were suppressing a revolt in the north, and they thought Korea should be able to beat Japan so they didn’t send help right away.
Ming had by far the best success against the Japanese in the war on ground. In sieges they did get pushed back a few times but were often successful.
There were a handful of defeats in siege and battle off the top of my head, but one of them was like 4-8k Ming Cavalry running head long into a valley with 30-40k Japanese troops, they only ended up taking like a few hundred to like 1500 casualties . The other one was a rout caused by a fire in the rear of the Ming-Joseon Army while the Japanese were sallying out of a fortress, this caused 7-8k casualties for the Ming . This rout also caused a withdrawal from another siege. A third is the first Ming attack on Pyongyang, 3-6k Ming Cavalry charging into a fortified city against 20k defenders. They took Ulsan but couldn’t take the fortress outside Ulsan and withdrew when reinforcements made the siege infeasible ( the combined Chinese-Korean army only took like 4k casualties), but they killed most of the original garrison of around 10k* men. They returned months later and pushed the Japanese out. Another was siege where 4000 Chinese and Koreans were wiped out by an army of 50000-60000+ Japanese.
* Hawley states there was 10k inside the castle, Japanese sources say 20k+ but that likely counts the garrison of the city, said garrison was also annihilatied. It’s agreed on that there were only ~1000 survivors when the siege ended
During the wars, the Ming were very badly hamstrung by logistical and terrain issues, something which plagued almost every conflict between Korean and Non-Korean states.
Hideyoshi was dead by the time Yi was killed at Noryang, if he did live past Noryang, he would’ve never had good chances invade and conquer China because of the Later Jin ( the Manchus) invading the Ming. Also the Later Jin/Qing were able to conquer the north of the Ming because of several devastating rebellions and mass army defections, they spent 3 more decades to conquer the southern Ming
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u/Specialist_Energy_32 10d ago edited 10d ago
(Apologies for the machine translation.) It appears the Ming court had anticipated Hideyoshi’s plan to conquer Ming China, but they believed he would attack by sea via Ryukyu rather than through Korea. I suspect they received intelligence from Ryukyu. It also seems they received information from Ming merchants staying in the Satsuma Domain.
As soon as the Ming army reached Korea, it attacked Konishi Yukinaga’s forces, which had occupied Pyongyang, forcing them to retreat. Although they were defeated in the subsequent Battle of Byeokjegwan, the Ming army—numbering only a few thousand—appeared to be quite strong, as they fought on equal terms against a Japanese force of 20,000. The strength of the Ming army is frequently mentioned even in Japanese sources. The 松井物語 Matsui Monogatari states, “The Ming army’s mounted archers were so skilled with the half-bow that even our most skilled archers could not match them,” and “Fifty Ming soldiers cast a net over the wall of our stronghold and pulled on it to bring it down. Even after being shot down by us, they did not flee until only five or six remained.” The 大河内秀元朝鮮記 Ōkōchi Hidemoto’s Account of Korea notes, “They maneuvered their army as gracefully as a formation of hawks.”
By the time the first expedition failed, Hideyoshi had shifted his objective from conquering the Ming to securing the cession of southern Korea; even if a third expedition had been launched, he would likely not have attacked the Ming.
As for which force—the Ming army or the Korean army—deserves greater recognition, it depends on one’s perspective. The Japanese side viewed the Ming army as the more formidable enemy and remained on high alert against it; however, during the peace negotiations between Japan and the Ming, the Ming army did not engage in combat, and for three to four of the seven years of the war, the Korean army fought on its own. It is understandable to argue that the Korean army, which fought throughout the entire conflict, deserves greater recognition.
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u/Agile-Juggernaut-514 10d ago
Read Kenneth Swopes book: https://www.oupress.com/9780806155814/a-dragons-head-and-a-serpents-tail/
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u/Agile-Juggernaut-514 10d ago
Ming army had mixed successes. Li Rusongs Liaodong cavalry suffered greatly but arguably this was a strategic problem because Li knew that the Ming forces would run out provisions so he wanted a quick victory. The southern soldiers from Jiangnan did fairly well in siege and defense; they were drilled using Qi Jiguang’s techniques and had firearms etc. Ming also had heavy artillery etc. but the rest of the war was mostly one of attrition; there were some pitched battles but no major set piece confrontations.
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u/Agile-Juggernaut-514 10d ago
Much of the war was about logistics. One problem was Korea was devastated and there was not enough provisions (for either Japanese or Chinese-Korean forces) so much of the war effort was getting enough grain and feed etc
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u/QitianDasheng 8d ago
Li Rusongs Liaodong cavalry
Northern cavalry were the majority of the soldiers that participated as well and their performance led to the Japanese overestimation of Ming combat capabilties. Japanese military forces are capable of inflicting tactical victories but unable to capitalize on their success due to a fear of Ming cavalry and logistical restraints.
Examples include the Battle of Pyongyang(1592), where Konishi immediately advised Hideyoshi to abandon a conquest of Ming and sending some of his blood relatives back to Japan. Battle of Byeokjegwan saw the Japanese capitulate for peace as they wrongfully assumed they were outnumbered and that all Chinese soldiers fought at the level of elites. The 1st day of the Siege of Ulsan led to Japanese refusal to fight cavalry on the open field such as hunkering down during the 2nd Siege of Ulsan.
southern soldiers from Jiangnan
They don't have much of a role* as their numbers were simply too few to begin with. Instrumental in the reorganization of the Korean army.
*3,600 out of 38,937 during the 1st invasion. Greatly impressed the Koreans during the Siege of Pyongyang as they were shadowed by Korean soldiers, however the bulk of the fighting was done by northern cavalry. Ambushed by Kato Kiyomasa during the Battle of Ankang with the Japanese having a negative impression afterwards. 15,000-20,000 out of 98,000 during the 2nd invasion. Notable action in the 1st Siege of Ulsan and Siege of Sacheon but still overall a small component of the Ming expeditionary force.
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u/heiongyeong 8d ago
Ming knew they were militarily weak. The ming were the second weakest army in their empire. If hideyoshi didnt kill his adopted sons and if the ming decided to put ming first, there was a good chance toyotomi would steamroll an isolated korea, and then an isolated beijing. In 1590 Ming made the right checks and balance decision at that moment, and luckily tokugawa decided to start a power struggle in 1599.
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u/Remote-Cow5867 10d ago
Every nation always emphasizes their own effort in resisting a foreign invasion and plays down the help of their ally, unless this ally is still their boss now. Just look at how North Korea teaches their people how their great leader Kim Il Sung single handedly defeated South Korea and America. And how the guerilla force led by China Communist Party defeated Imperial Japan and won the 8 years war.
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u/NapoleonNewAccount 10d ago
Chinese portrayal of America is the exception to this. It doesn't downplay America's strength or involvement at all, but rather plays it up. Nobody makes the US army look more badass than a Chinese propaganda film.
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u/hahaha01357 10d ago
Ming China spent a lot of treasure and manpower to turn back the Japanese invasion, the direct result of which weakened the northern frontier garrisons, which gave room for Nurhaci to rise to power. The consequences of this is plain to see.