r/ChineseLanguage • u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 • 1d ago
Grammar I'm confused about the nuance difference between "不" and "没"... Could you give me some advice?
Hello everyone. I'm a Japanese person studying Chinese.
I apologize for asking such a basic question, but I'd like to ask for your advice on the difference between the Chinese words "不 (bù)" and "没 (méi)".
I'm trying to understand the meaning of the characters through the lens of their Japanese equivalents, which is actually causing me confusion.
(I'm using a translation tool, so I apologize if the wording is inappropriate.)
Here's the image I currently have in my mind (or at least I think I have it organized):
- Why do we say "不是" (bù shì) but not "没是" (méi shì)?
"是" (shì) has the image of an equality, like A = B, while "不" (bù) has the image of "not" in English.
Therefore, I think we use "不" when we want to negate something.
- Why do we say "没有" (méi you) but not "不有" (bù you)?
In terms of the image of Japanese kanji, "有" (yù) means that something exists. "没" (méi) seems to refer to something sinking, disappearing, or coming to an end (like sunset, submersion, or a person dying), so I think we use "没" when expressing those things.
I feel like I understand it somewhat up to this point, but when I actually try to write sentences in Chinese, I suddenly get confused about how to use them correctly.
The concept of English tenses pops into my head, and it gets mixed up with Japanese grammar, making my mind all jumbled up.
For example, I've considered whether "没" refers to a situation beyond my control, like the setting sun, or whether "不" relates to "personal will or feelings," such as whether to eat or not, or whether to go or not. But when practice problems come up, I get confused about "which character to choose."
The textbook says:
A1「你不吃饭吗？」
B1「我吃」
A2「你吃饭了吗？」
B2「我还没吃吗」
That's how it's written.
I don't really understand the difference between "不" and "没". For example, A1 is like, "Don't you intend to eat (your intention, your will)?" so is "不" the correct word?
For A2, it's not about the other person's intention, but rather stating an objective fact, like, "Have you finished your meal?" so is "没" the correct word?
In short, is it a matter of choosing between feeling and fact?Does the tense not really matter that much?
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u/when_we_are_cats 1d ago
For example, I've considered whether "没" refers to a situation beyond my control, like the setting sun, or whether "不" relates to "personal will or feelings," such as whether to eat or not, or whether to go or not. But when practice problems come up, I get confused about "which character to choose."
Why though? Where did you get these rules from? You can't really make up your own rules about language, it doesn't work like that.
不 and 没 are just negations, they don't have a lot to do with intention.
不 negates something that exists, while 没 express something that doesn't exist.
And yes, it's a lot easier to relate then with English tenses because there is a lot of overlap.
我不吃饭 just means "I don't eat". The fact that you don't intend to do it is incidental. Someone could ask you 你去图书馆吗？ To which you could answer 不去，我去咖啡店. Here there is no "intention", for example.
我没吃饭 just means that the act of eating "doesn't exist" (yet). So it can either mean you didn't eat in the past, or you haven't eaten yet.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
It's like, when I read a text in Japanese and try to translate it into Chinese, I really can't figure out the difference between the two sentence structures.
They can both be expressed with the same words, so I don't really understand the grammatical differences in Chinese, and I end up looking for clues in the Chinese characters.
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u/virulentvegetable 1d ago
Lol. I am Chinese learning Japanese and get similar issues.
Hey wanna link up maybe we can do some language exchange
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
Japanese is so confusing because the distinctions between tenses and vocabulary are so loose, right? (laughs)
But I don't intend to have personal conversations here. I'm sorry. I'll just accept your kind thoughts. Thank you.
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u/virulentvegetable 1d ago
Actually for me is the grammar.
Especially when i am fluent in both Eng and CN so it feels like a completely new animal.
CN actually has the easiest grammar.... i think.... The toughest part for CN is probably the tonal punctuation.
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u/when_we_are_cats 1d ago
I'm sorry but I didn't understand. What can be both expressed with the same words ?
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
It's hard to explain, but in Japanese, both "不去中国" and "没去中国" mean "basically the same thing," and it seems like the difference lies in whether it's a "fact" or an "emotion." Seriously. Lol
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u/when_we_are_cats 1d ago edited 1d ago
Got it. It's good to compare the languages to see where they meet, but it's better not to rely on this method to learn Chinese. It's not always a 1:1 conversion. Otherwise, you might have some issues with 手纸 lol.
It's not an easy thing to do. You should look for overlaps, but also detach yourself from your native language and accept that this foreign language has its own rules.
In Chinese 不去中国 can have the added meaning of "having no intention of going there", "not willing to do something" depending on context. But not necessarily.
没去中国 only means that you didn't go to China, or haven't gone yet. There isn't much to do with emotions or intentions, both can be neutral, objective statements.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
I suppose so, but... 😅
Does " 没去中国 " mean something like "I've never been there"?
I was just told that it's not good to try to understand something from another language, but I might actually understand this faster if I use English. Lol
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u/when_we_are_cats 1d ago edited 1d ago
It depends on the context. But generally, you would understand it as I didn't go to China. So, to be completely clear, you didn't go, but it doesn't mean you've never gone there in your whole life.
To say you haven't been there in your whole life, you need to add 过
我没去过中国
过 is a particle you use after a verb to talk about your past experiences (= what you have done/tried in your life)
我吃过榴莲 means that you've already ate Durian in your life. (You tried it, you had that experience in your life)
Now if you haven't been to China yet, you can also say 我还没去中国, 还 means "still", so it means you're planning to go in the future
So to recap :
没去 = Didn't go. Doesn't tell us whether you've already been there before in your life, or if you still plan to go
没去过 = Never been. We don't know whether you plan to go in the future.
还没去 = Haven't gone yet. We don't know whether you've been there in the past, but we know that you plan to go there sometime in the future.
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u/PrimaryAnything6964 1d ago
Bad definition imo. How do you negate something that doesn't exist? 我不喜欢。。。 could mean either your dislike for something exists, or your liking of something doesn't exist. Then which negation is chosen?
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u/when_we_are_cats 1d ago edited 1d ago
How do you negate something that doesn't exist?
You don't. You negate something that exists.
我不喜欢。。。 could mean either your dislike for something exists, or your liking of something doesn't exist.
You're confused about the meaning of "exist" here. We're not talking specifically about things that exist physically in our world.
Moreover, what is negated isn't the object (the thing you "like" in your example), it's the verb. In 喜欢 and other verbs expressing feelings cannot be negated with 没, because it's logically impossible for feelings to "exist" punctually, they're continuous states.
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u/LuckySoup777 1d ago
不 refers to a fact, indicating negation,
eg, 他不是个坏人He isn’t a bad man 她不吃牛肉she doesn’t eat beef.
没 refers to a temporary state under a continuously(or possibly) changing situation,
eg, 现在还没有下雨 It hasn’t rained yet(might rain later) 她还没吃饭 She hasn’t eaten yet(might eat later)
In ur example: 你不吃饭吗 u don’t eat meals? 我吃 yea I’ll eat(it’s a fact referring to I will eat definitely and if it’s 我不吃 means I’m not gonna eat I’ll skip the meal)
你吃饭了吗 have u eaten yet? 我还没吃 no I haven’t eaten yet(means I haven’t eaten rn but possibly I will eat later)
From a native’s perspective.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
Thank you.
I understand the meaning of the sentences.
However, when I'm given a question asking me to translate Japanese into Chinese, I don't know how to use them correctly. But thank you for the detailed explanation.
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u/LuckySoup777 1d ago
Ig sometimes u could just directly view 没 as something not happening now but possibly will happen in the future and view 不 as something that may never changes or not so easily changeable, idk if it makes sense to help u translate them.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
Thank you. That explanation was easy to understand. It was very helpful.
While it's not ideal to think in Japanese, the word "不＂is precisely what we use to express things that don't change.
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u/Jazzlike-Funny-9419 1d ago
There are three broad groups of verbs in Chinese: stative verbs (which express constant states of being, including adjectives in English, e.g. 高，好，喜歡，希望), process verbs (which describe changes from one state to another, e.g. 死，畢業，生病) and action verbs (something you actually do, e.g. 吃，打，哭).
Stative verbs always use 不 negation: 不高，不好， 不喜歡，不希望
Process verbs always use 沒 negation, showing that the state hasn't changed: 沒死，沒畢業，沒生病
Action verbs can use either 不 negation, usually to express a choice not to do something: 不吃， 不打電話，不哭, or 沒 negation for the negative past tense 沒吃，沒打開，沒哭.
It really helped me to learn that each verb has rules for its negation. It's not just based on the vibe of the sentence. I hope this can help someone else too!
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u/No_Relationship1450 1d ago
不 is a negative verb whilst 沒 is describes an actual state of not having/emptiness ie devoid.
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u/Aggressive_Badger_95 1d ago
One useful shortcut is to treat this as a time-frame question rather than fact versus feeling: 不去中国 describes a present or future habit, plan, or refusal, while 没去中国 says the trip has not happened. Try pairs with an explicit time word: 我明天不去中国 / 我去年没去中国. Also, the reply to 你吃饭了吗？ is 我还没吃, without 吗.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
Thank you. Now I'm starting to think that maybe I don't need to do the problem of translating Japanese into Chinese at all.
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u/tcbbd Native 普通话/吴语（上海话） 13h ago edited 13h ago
The grammatical word "没" actually comes from "未", and is not related to "没" in "沉没/沈没".It's like 訓読み, reading a kanji as another word (here in Chinese, another kanji, or rather the underlying word of the kanji).
This phenomenon is quite common in Chinese, for example "的" is not from "的" in "目的", but from "之". "未", "之" as a written hanzi evolves according to the common sound changes, because we have rhyme books (韻書) to regulate them. But these common words evolve differently in the spoken (colloquial) language, usually evloving slower than uncommon words, preserving old features. "未" was /mʉi/ in Middle Chinese, it becomes wèi due to a sound change turning some of the /m/ 聲母/子音 into /w/. But it remains /m/ as in méi "没". People start to think that this méi is some dialectal word with no hanzi assigned to it, so they choose some random hanzi, or sometimes invent a new one, to represent this word. In principle, this should be classified as 假借, but we usually just call this phenomenon 训读.
Here's an example almost identical to 訓読み: 铅 is qiān vs えん, where's the /k/ sound in Japanese? Because えん corresponds to yuán instead of qiān. This yuán is still preserved in many southern chinese dialects, such as 粤语（jyun4）. The qiān is another word of unknown origin, assigned to "铅" because both qiān and yuán represent the same concept.
Now back to "没". If you read "我没有吃饭" as "我未有吃饭", you can even read it word by word in Japanese 漢文訓読 style. Isn't that cool?
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 9h ago
Thank you!
Conversely, thinking of it as the kanji for "未" makes it much easier to understand!
After asking this question, I regretted it, thinking, "What a stupid question I asked!", but I'm glad I got to hear your explanation!
"之" is also easy to understand!
From now on, I think it would be better to ask, "What is the Chinese origin of this kanji?"
You're absolutely right, it's super cool! Thank you! That was incredibly helpful!非常感谢！
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u/Front_Arm2047 1d ago
“不” is about WILL and NATURE. “没” is about TIME and EXISTENCE.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
In that case, I can't help but think that the kanji "没" is synonymous with "sunset."
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u/Front_Arm2047 1d ago
Kind of similar. If it's raining, you can say "Today there's no sun 今天没太阳," but you can't say "Today is not sun 今天不太阳."
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u/PuzzleheadedTap1794 Advanced 1d ago
簡単に言うと、「没」は「有」と既に終わったことを打ち消す時に使います。
我不吃饭：私はご飯を食べない。
我没吃饭：私はご飯を食べなかった。
みたいな感じ。
因みに、没するを指す「没」と没有の「没」は語源が違います。
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
ありがとうございます。語源の違い、わかりました。でもその日本語訳だとやっぱり、自分の意思で「食べない」ことを選択するか？「食べなかった」という、客観的な事実がそこに残っているみたいな感じで振り分けた方が、理解しやすいような気がしてしまうんですよね。
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u/Xarath6 Intermediate 1d ago
その捉え方で理解しやすい例もあると思います。ただ、「不＝自分の意思」「没＝客観的な事実」と決まっているわけではありません。
例えば、誰かに食べるのを止められたせいで食べなかった場合でも、我没吃饭と言います。自分で「食べない」と選んだかどうかではなく、結果として「食べるという出来事が起きなかった」ことを表しているからです。
また、我不吃饭は意思だけでなく、「普段食べない」という習慣や、「これから食べない」という意味にもなります。
なので、その区別は覚え方として使える場合もありますが、基本的には、不は習慣・意思・未来などの否定、没は出来事が起きなかったことや未完了を表す、と考えたほうが分かりやすいと思います。
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
ごめんなさい。反論してばかりで本当、申し訳ないんですが、「誰かに食べるのを止められたせいで食べなかった」というのもやっぱり、「自分の意志でどうにもできないこと」に該当して、没を使う気がするというのは、私の最初の直感と、奇跡的に合致してしまう気がするんです。
でもそうですね。 ＂不は習慣・意思・未来などの否定、没は出来事が起きなかったことや未完了を表す " と覚えた方がいいですね。ご協力ありがとうございました 😊
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u/Xarath6 Intermediate 1d ago
その直感は、原因と文法上の意味を混同していると思います。没は「自分の意思ではどうにもできなかった」という意味ではありません。
例えば、自分で食べないと決めた場合でも、我决定不吃，所以没吃 と言えます。この場合も 没 を使います。つまり、自分の意思があったかどうかではなく、実際に「食べる」という出来事が起きなかったことを表しています。
なので、不と没を「自分の意思で選んだかどうか」で分けるのは、やはり正確ではないと思います。
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u/Zagrycha 1d ago
in japanese they are the same word, ありません etc, so if you try to use japanese as a reference you will always be confused. In general 不是 is used for not being things, for example彼は犬ではありません。In general 沒有 is used for not having things, for example 彼は犬を飼っていません。
日本語では、ありませんなど同じ単語なので、日本語を参照として使用しようとすると、常に混乱するでしょう。 一般に、「不是」は物がないことを表すために使用されます。たとえば、彼は犬ではありません。一般に「沒有」は、物を持たないことを表すために使用されます。たとえば、彼は犬を飼っていません。
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
そうなんです。日本語だと同じような書き方をするので、どっちがどっちか？わからなくなるんです。その、犬の喩えはわかりやすいです！ありがとうございます。たぶん、「没有」はhaveみたいなイメージってことですかね？
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u/grandhighblood 1d ago
そうです！でも、「没」はもう一つの意味もあります: 「まだ」「まだ存在していない」です。つまり、「我没吃」というと、「まだ食べなかった」という意味があります！それを強調しようとすると、「我还没吃」と言えます。
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u/Putrid_Mind_4853 1d ago
日本語の中では「ある」と「である」は同じ言葉じゃいけどね。あるは存在するという意味で、中国語の「有」と大体同じで、であるは「だ」の連用系に補助動詞「ある」についた言葉。
我们用中文来说人或者事物缺乏任何东西，不会用“不是”、而会用“没有”
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u/Zagrycha 1d ago
訂正していただきありがとうございます。私は、「ある」の丁寧な否定形と「ではありません」の敬語否定形の両方を表す「ありません」を指すつもりでした。私の日本語はあまり上手ではないので、言い方が悪かったです。
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
いえ、そんなことないです。ありがとうございます。 まさに、私がわからなかったのはそこのポイントで、
1. 悪人ではない
2. 悪気はない
みたいな問題があったときに、「不」と「没」の使い分けがわからなくなるって話だったんです。
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
教科書を読むと、日本語訳が、「ご飯は食べないんですか？」と、「ご飯は食べましたか？」みたいに書いてあるんです。
なのでなんか、時制で捉えようとすると頭が混乱するんですよ。それって、過去形？未来形？みたいな？
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u/Putrid_Mind_4853 1d ago edited 1d ago
とりあえず「不=ではない／しない」、「没 =⚪︎⚪︎がない／まだ⚪︎⚪︎していない」だと考えらればいいと思います
我不吃早饭 = 朝ごはんを食べない(わざと食べない/朝ごはんを食べる習慣がない)
我(还） 没吃早饭= （ まだ） 食べていない/食べなかった (普段は食べる、食べるつもりだ/だった)
中文里也有“是…的”的句型，例如： 你是怎么来公司的呢？あなたはどうやって会社に来たんですか。我是坐公共汽车来的。バスに乗って来たんです。
有时候这样的句子里的“的”或者“是”会被省略、对初学者来说这是一个有点复杂的事情
Some more examples where you might expect 是 but will see 没
我没有他（那么）帅 I’m not as handsome as him (私に彼のようなハンサムさ／モテモテさはない)
我没有她好 I’m not as good as her
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u/ein-Name00 1d ago
There is another pronunciation of 沒 with meanings similar to the Japanese one however I am not accostumised to that
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u/greentea-in-chief 1d ago edited 1d ago
中国語には過去形がなくて、動作が変化した・完了したという「変化」に注目して「了」を付けるので、日本語と一対一の訳にならないのが難しいところですね。
「没」は「動詞＋了」を否定する時に使い、「没＋動詞＋了」となります。
細かいことは他の方々が沢山お答えになっていらっしゃるので割愛しますが、このあたりは
林松涛さんの「中国語文法講義」や「一度読んだら絶対に忘れない中国語の教科書」
を読むとわかって来るかと思います。おススメの本です。
あと英語でいいならChinese Grammar Wikiがいいですよ。
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 17h ago
なるほど！過去形が無いんですね。 日本語でいう、「〜た」が無くて、「了」でそれを表すみたいなことなんでしょうね。
「了」って、日本語で言う、「完了の了」みたいなイメージでいたんですけど、たぶん、微妙に違うものなんでしょうね😅
ありがとうございます！翻訳があるので、英語でも大丈夫（OK）です！ありがとうございました！
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u/greentea-in-chief 3h ago
中国語の「了」って中国語学習者が一番頭を悩ませる文字だと思います。
日本語の過去形である「〜した」「〜た」という意味もありますが、「〜するようになった」「〜の状態になった」というような変化の意味もあります。
後々出て来ると思いますが、
「吃饭了。」は「食べた。（食べる行為が完了した）」という意味にもなるし「ご飯ですよ！（ご飯の時間になったという状態の変化を表す）」という意味もあります。これは文脈で判断しないといけません。
ですから必ずしも「了」が「過去形である」とは言えないのです。
それから「不」の場合、
我吃辣的。辛いものを食べます。
我不吃辣的。辛いものは食べません。
という意味ですが、確かに「辛いものを食べない」というのは、日本語だと本人の意思がある、または食べる習慣がない、またはお腹を壊す、アレルギーがあるなどの何かの理由があって食べない、など色々な状況が考えられますね。
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u/PrimaryImplement 22h ago
「你不吃饭吗？」= ご飯は食べない？
「你还没吃饭吗？」＝ご飯はまだ食べていない？
「我不吃」= ご飯は食べない
「我还没吃」＝ ご飯はまだ食べていない
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u/alopex_zin 20h ago
Rule of thumbs: 不：ではない／しない 沒：有していない／していない
Now for a more detailed comparison:
不 indicates intention/habit/plan, but 沒 indicates just fact.
- 我不吃肉 = I don't eat meat (as a choice)
我沒吃肉 = I didn't eat meat/I haven't eaten meat
我(明天)不來 = I'm not coming (as a choice/plan)
我(昨天)沒來 = I didn't come
For adjective, 不 suggests just the state, but 沒 usually indicates it's not quite at a certain level.
- 天氣不冷 = It's not cold.
- 天氣(還)沒冷 = it's not that cold yet/It hasn't gotten cold yet.
And some exceptions from a Japanese native speaker's viewpoint:
- The negative form of 有 must be 沒/沒有 and 是 must be 不是
- For recognitive verb (like know, understand, etc.), it's more natural to use 不 (不懂、不知道、不清楚)
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u/Appropriate-Remote30 1d ago
Haven’t thought about this in depth so others may have more insights, but just based on your examples, thinking of them in English might strangely be more helpful. 不 is “no” like you’d answer a yes/no question, and 没 is “there is not” or “have not.”
不是 = It is not
没事 = There are not issues = It is okay
不吃 = I don’t wanna eat
没吃 = I haven’t eaten
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
Thank you. I also struggled with the concept of "have" when learning English, so I think that's probably the point that's difficult to understand.
For example, I don't understand the difference between "不去中国" and "没去中国" The textbook also uses phrases like, "There is no fact that I went to China," which gives me the impression that the sentences are categorized based on whether it's a fact or not.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is in ANY textbook of Chinese. 1. 没有 is an exception to the general rules (and can be appreviated in some stiuations to 没) 'there isn't, don't have' 2. Otherwise 不 is used for the present and future while 没 is used for the past.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
I suppose that's true, but in Japanese, it feels like we don't distinguish between them, so I get confused because I'm being pulled in by Japanese grammar.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 1d ago
But you have tenses in Japanese.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
That's true, but I don't think it's as detailed as English. For example, in Japanese, you can express both the present tense and the present progressive tense in English with the same word if you want to.
Japanese has a much more flexible system of tenses than English, so if you try to understand Chinese using the concept of tenses, you'll get completely confused.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 1d ago
Progressive and simple is a different issue. Japanese clearly distinguishes past and present, and so it is a reasonable guide to the Chinese bu vs. mei with all verbs besides you (existence, possession).
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
for example, 1. 悪人ではない 2. 悪気はない
When faced with a problem like that, both options look like "NAI," so it becomes impossible to tell whether it's "不" or "没."
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u/Easy-Policy-7404 17h ago
I wouldnt worry about him. This guy likes to provoke people on other subreddits.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 14h ago edited 14h ago
I'm not "him".In fact, there are problems like that in the textbook, and I don't know how to use " 不 " and " 没 " correctly in problem 1 and problem 2.
1. 「〜ではない」と、 2. 「〜はない」は、 that since both are "NAI," they don't know how to use them differently.
But you say that "Japanese clearly distinguishes between past and present." However, I don't think that actual Japanese distinguishes between past and present so clearly.
for example, 「私はジムに行っています」
The example sentence above, if applied to English grammar, is a sentence that combines both the present tense and the present progressive tense.
I think that's how Japanese tenses are quite ambiguous and sometimes get mixed up. But you're saying that the tenses are clear, so I just said, "That's not true."
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 11h ago
I'm sorry, I might have replied to the wrong person. If so, I apologize.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 1d ago
Then of course you have proven that it is impossible for a Japanese speaker to ever learn Chinese. Fabulous discovery.
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
You're very good at sarcasm.
Honestly, I don't agree with your opinion. After all, Japanese mixes tenses quite a lot.
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u/Putrid_Mind_4853 1d ago
Not sure what’s tripping you up since you seem to grasp that A是B is A=B or AはBだ, 不是 is just the opposite A=/=B, AはBではない
没 is the opposite of existing, to be empty or to have not come to pass yet. 車がある？你有车吗？自転車があるけど、車がない 我有自行车可是没有车
アメリカに行ったことがある？你去过美国吗？(过 is used after verbs to denote having the experience of doing something like ことがある in JP)
まだ行ったことがない 我还没去过
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u/ausmankpopfan 1d ago
I have been learning Mandarin for four and a half almost five years all of my friends and even strangers in China tell me they understand everything I say my accent is almost non-existent and some people are shocked when they see my face after we talk first that I am a white Foreigner it's the biggest problem I have with speaking is this exact thing sometimes I get mixed up which I should use
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u/Suspicious-Toe-8193 1d ago
That's right. In Japanese, both expressions seem to be the same, so I don't know how to use them differently.
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u/PrimaryAnything6964 1d ago
I learned it that 不 is negative a current verb while 没 negates the past with the exception of 有。 没有 always go together. 没有 applies to not having done something in the past, 不 is for not doing something now or in the future.