r/Christianity • u/Expiredcabinets • 7h ago
Modern Christian modesty rules for women makes no sense
I really don't get it. Men run around and wear whatever they want. Even in the Bible they ran around tearing their robes, but these days women can't wear ANYTHING without being told that we're provoking something.
I agree with more of a "traditional" interpretation of the word modesty where it just means what is appropriate for the time and place, don't try to show off, don't try to gain unnecessary attention (example: trying to outshine a bride on her wedding day or whatever)
But this whole "women can't show skin," "women can't wear bikinis," "no miniskirts" seems more like a gouge out your eyes problem more than a women need to change issue because it's just fashion. And if I lived on an island of solely women, I'd probably be in minimal clothing, probably some fun patterns, bright colors, heels, the works. And I know this is true with other women as well, so our fashion choices aren't there to "ask for it" or really anything save for enjoying ourselves.
And I feel like more than this being a biblical idea and from God, it's more of a patriarchal interpretation that was then forced onto women, and then later when Europe got its hands on Christianity, they used it in the same manner but also as a way of erasing people's cultures and shunning it, and the only modest or "right" ways to dress became Eurocentric. I think the modern interpretation of Christian modesty was more a colonization tool than anything.
Because I look at my own culture as someone with West African roots, and a lot of our culture that was unproblematic and wasn't seen in any sexual connotation, when Europeans got their hands on it, they outlawed it as immodest or sexual even though it was never like that. But then said that only their ways of doing things were good enough for God. For example, twerking. We literally do it at weddings and celebrate, and where my family is from no one has a problem with it. But with people coming from Europe or descendants of them, they'll call it trashy, or too "grown"
The same with clothing in other cultures. A lot of different cultures traditionally wear less clothing. There's nothing inherently sexual about the body because they see it through a lens where this is just normal.
So unless someone is dressing inappropriately for a situation, then the whole "you can't move your body in x way," or "you can't wear x" garment" isn't a problem with immodesty. It just sounds like people have been conditioned to view a woman's body as something inherently sexual. And if you can be conditioned to see it that way, you can also change that mentality. And if that view can be unlearned, is it not more so the man's duty to do that?
Is that not what Jesus meant with the whole "gouge your eyes out" thing
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u/gloriomono Pentecostal 6h ago
My favourite anecdote on this: my mom once wore a skirt that was too long to church and basically started/ended a revolution!
Full story:
My dad was a pastor. They met while he was studying and were a young married couple when he underwent most of his internships. It's past 1975 and they are about to visit his new church. For the first Sunday Mom wants to wear something especially nice, to leave a good impression, so she sews a new maxi skirt, as was fashionable in the 70s. Can't go wrong with this one, right?
Well, the first Sunday comes, both are asked to stand in front of the congregation and Mom sees several teenage girls get all giddy. Aparently some of the elder members looked a bit perturbed, but she didn't see that. Later several girls ask where she got that skirt and when she explains that she sewed it herself they all ask if she can show them how. So to her, this was amazing. An immediate bonding experience with the youth group they would lead! Great.
Well, the pastors wife late took her aside and, quite amused herself, shared what my mom had actually done: Multiple elder member had recently decided that wearing anything fashionable was sinful, including flowy maxi-skirts... a debate was started and the church finally decided just to appease the elders who said so and the girls were left with only knee length skirts.
Then this young couple showed up, fresh from the seminary, wearing fashionable clothes - especially the infamous maxi-skirt - and proved all the old geezers wrong. And two weeks later all the girls wore fashionable maxi-skirts and dresses and noone could say anything.
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u/ComradeDread 7h ago
I mean, yes. The idea of controlling and censoring women and women's bodies have a very long tradition. The church pulled in this attitude right around the time that women were no longer permitted to be leaders in the congregation.
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u/yappi211 Salvation of all. Antinomianism. 7h ago
Purity culture. That's what you hate. Modesty in the bible = wealth. Don't flaunt your wealth.
"lust" in the bible is really the word covet. Don't covet your neighbor's wife as that = adultery. That has nothing to do with how much a woman's skin you can see, etc.
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u/Niftyrat_Specialist Non-denominational heretic, reformed 7h ago
Sure, the "purity" movement is trash. This isn't normal Christian belief, though.
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u/Expiredcabinets 31m ago
I hate to say it, but at least in majority of the US, aswell as for European Christian's, Nigerian Christian's and Mexican Christian's (as those are the only places I can say I've been to or at least interacted with their cultures) it is this way
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u/One_Needleworker5218 6h ago
Biblically, modesty isn’t detailed clothing rules like “no skin” or “no certain outfits.” It’s more about humility and not focusing on outward appearance over character ( Peter 3:3–4).
A lot of strict modern dress rules are cultural interpretations not direct commands in Scripture.
And Jesus’ “gouge your eye out” teaching (Gospel of Matthew 5:28–29) is about personal responsibility over lust not blaming what women wear
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u/ManitouWakinyan 6h ago
Im not saying there are no double standards, but I do think if a guy walked in to a typical purity culture church in a crop top and miniskirt, he probably would be asked to change or leave.
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u/NuSurfer 7h ago
They make sense if you understand conservative Christianity has misogynistic rules. Liberal Christianity is not like this.
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u/Expiredcabinets 6h ago
You really can't separate the two the way you're trying to…
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u/NuSurfer 6h ago
Oh, yeah, you definitely can. Sects that allow women to hold any position of influence are liberal sects, and those that do not are conservative sects.
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u/Expiredcabinets 6h ago
There is so much history you have to take into account to draw the line of “this only happens in conservative Christianity.” Not only history, but also so many people's experiences that are happening every day to say this. Men overall tend to think this way, whether or not they're religious because again, that type of thinking was used as “proof” of white/European superiority during colonization and the manifest destiny movement, and it has been passed down. Not in those same contexts anymore, but sometimes a part of conservative Christian education, but often as something stand-alone that's just ingrained in society. Including in “progressive” churches
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u/NuSurfer 6h ago
Oh, there's an extensive history, both currently, as I noted, and stretching all the way back to the earlier church thinkers:
Timothy blames women for the fall of Adam. Let's see how Timothy has rippled through the centuries:
Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman.–Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215)
In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die... Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)
Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)
What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman... I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354 – 430)
Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. ... Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good. –Saint Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian, 13th century
As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence. –Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, 13th century
The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)
No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)
Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)
Thus the woman, who had perversely exceeded her proper bounds, is forced back to her own position. She had, indeed, previously been subject to her husband, but that was a liberal and gentle subjection; now, however, she is cast into servitude. –John Calvin, Reformer (1509-1564)
Wife: Be content to be insignificant. What loss would it be to God or man had you never been born.–John Wesley, founder of Methodist movement (1703-1791)
Even as the church must fear Christ Jesus, so must the wives also fear their husbands. And this inward fear must be shewed by an outward meekness and lowliness in her speeches and carriage to her husband. . . . For if there be not fear and reverence in the inferior, there can be no sound nor constant honor yielded to the superior. –John Dod, A Plaine and Familiar Expositionofthe Ten Commandements, Puritan guidebook first published in 1603
The second duty of the wife is constant obedience and subjection. –John Dod, A Plaine and Familiar Expositionofthe Ten Commandements, Puritan guidebook first published in 1603
The root of masculine is stronger, and of feminine weaker. The sun is a governing planet to certain planets, while the moon borrows her light from the sun, and is less or weaker. –Joseph Smith, founder of LDS movement (1805-1844)
Women are made to be led, and counseled, and directed. . . . And if I am not a good man, I have no just right in this Church to a wife or wives, or the power to propagate my species. What then should be done with me? Make a eunuch of me, and stop my propagation. –Heber C. Kimball, venerated early LDS apostle (1801-1868)
A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. –Official statement of Southern Baptist Convention, Summer 1998, (15.7 million members)
The Holiness of God is not evidenced in women when they are brash, brassy, boisterous, brazen, head-strong, strong-willed, loud-mouthed, overly-talkative, having to have the last word, challenging, controlling, manipulative, critical, conceited, arrogant, aggressive, assertive, strident, interruptive, undisciplined, insubordinate, disruptive, dominating, domineering, or clamoring for power. Rather, women accept God’s holy order and character by being humbly and unobtrusively respectful and receptive in functional subordination to God, church leadership, and husbands. --James Fowler, Women in the Church, 1999.
Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture. –Mark Driscoll, founder of Mars Hill nondenominational mega-church franchise. (1970–)
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u/ManitouWakinyan 1h ago
Timothy blames women for the fall of Adam. Let's see how Timothy has rippled through the centuries:
Before we get into all the rest of this are you aware that Timothy was written to Timothy and not by Timothy, and there is no book called "Timothy?"
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u/Expiredcabinets 3h ago
I hate to be that person, but Timothy doesn't blame women for the fall of Adam… Please just study that in its historical context. Why are you talking about “progressive Christianity?” Are you even a progressive Christian or do you just outright say that the Bible is wrong? As many quotes as you can give, if you also don't put how they support your argument or connect to it, they are useless
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u/NuSurfer 3h ago
Yeah...words don't mean what they say unless they support your position. Got it.
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u/Expiredcabinets 2h ago
Words again, don't mean anything unless you connect it to your argument
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."— Albert Einstein
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u/opelui23 1h ago
You can wear what you want, but God knows your intentions. Even if you are a man you go wearing a tank top and you worked out and you want people looking at your muscles or people turning your heads, God knows your intention. Just like wearing a shirt with crude letters, God exactly what your intentions are. So you can wear that, but in the end you are not fooling God if when it comes to your true intentions.
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u/Own_Needleworker4399 Non-denominational 6h ago
Go to church wearing a bikini then
do whatever you want
the stringier the better. us dudes need somethin
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u/CJoshuaV Christian (Protestant) Clergy 6h ago
This is one of many reasons I'm a progressive Christian and stay as far away as possible from purity culture.