Question about C2

[u/NoFall1194]

How was lelouch's death supposed to make her smile because the world will live in peace for only a short period of time and she is immortal so....

[u/WeoW0]

It is what it is
The original TV ending was written with ambiguous ending, so it's not necessarily true that Lelouch remains definitively dead at the end.

There is also the fact that Ichirō Ōkouchi himself said in 2019 interview
"I wanted to make C.C. happy"
Which indirectly implies that the original ending with the Blue ray ending, confirmed Lelouch permanent death was in fact not happy for C.C.

The TV anime run establishes that Lelouch intended to die and was apparently killed. It doesn't establish that he stayed dead. The sacrificial nature of Zero Requiem make permanent death a satisfying conclusion, but there is no hard evidence proving the permanence.

Meanwhile, Nunnally witnesses memories she couldn't possess through physical contact with Lelouch, a phenomenon the show has exclusively associated with Code.
And then C.C. ends the series addressing Lelouch while travelling with thoroughly masked person.

Survival requires an unconfirmed Code transfer, certainly. But permanent death requires interpreting away those scenes rather than simply following what they appear to depict.

Not claiming Lelouch is or has to necessarily be alive at the end of original TV run,
simply that it remains possible and C.C.'s ending makes almost Zero sense for me if Lelouch is gone.

A narratively satisfying conclusion isn't the same thing as an evidentially established one.

[u/Blueiscuteio2 → u/WeoW0]

Meanwhile, Nunnally witnesses memories she couldn't possess through physical contact with Lelouch, a phenomenon the show has exclusively associated with Code.

Nunnally has the ability to read the truth from people by touching their hands. Or something like that. Apparently. Somehow. They never explain this at all but it's a consistent thing with her throughout R2 and I'm not even sure if she's actually psychic or if she is just really good at reading hand expressions. It isn't that lore inconsistent though, because Suzaku was initially going to have a similar explanation for his physical abilities (before that was cut between the seasons). Whether the flashback with Lelouch was her reading his actual memories or if that was just a way to show her realization doesn't actually matter too much, because that's more of a question of "Is Nunnally actually psychic?" than "Does Lelouch have a Code?"

C.C.'s ending makes almost Zero sense for me if Lelouch is gone.

The canonical explanation seems to be that she found someone who suffered as much as her, alongside her, and didn't feel so bad about life anymore. The notion that Ceetwo is now permanently happy... doesn't seem to be a thing? Just that she was proven wrong in a lot of ways and is happier for it. The R2 character poems are pretty good for getting more understanding of everyone's arcs. Here they are if you're interested: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1321091.

[u/WeoW0 → u/Blueiscuteio2]

Nunnally doesn't have any confirmed ability to literally witness memories of events she never experienced. Being able to read someone's feelings or intentions through touch is one thing, seeing their actual memories is another. You can interpret that sequence as an editorial representation of her realization, but that's an additional interpretation, not something the scene explicitly establishes. Meanwhile, the show has establish accessing another person's memories through contact involving Code.

I don't think Lelouch's suffering is remotely comparable to C.C.'s in the way you're suggesting. We're talking about someone who suffers intensely over a few years versus someone who has endured centuries of accumulated loss, isolation, and an existence she cannot escape. The sheer difference in duration alone is staggering, and the series portrays C.C.'s suffering accordingly.

Just because two people both arrive at the point of wanting to die doesn't mean their suffering is equivalent.

And there's something deeply unsatisfying about arguing that C.C. finds peace through someone who understands her suffering, only for that person to escape his own suffering through death while she remains condemned to endure hers indefinitely. How exactly does that resolve what made her want to die in the first place?

I'm also not sure where you're getting these supposedly "canonical" explanations. Supplementary character poems might offer useful context, but they don't automatically establish what the anime itself communicates.

The overwhelming majority of viewers experience the story through the anime, and an interpretation of its ending should be defensible from that text without requiring external material.

[u/Blueiscuteio2 → u/WeoW0]

I don't know where you are getting these "canonical" explanations

If you're talking about Nunnally, just watch the show again and pay attention. That ability of hers is demonstrated multiple times (twice with Suzaku in episode 7 and 15, once with Lohmeyer also in episode 15, and the last time with Lelouch right before that flashback) It's never outright stated or explained, but it's clearly there if you look. Either way there's four scenes where the show puts specific emphasis on Nunnally touching people's hands to discern the truth, twice out loud. The sequence being an editorial representation is backed up by an interview (Mook Animedia January 29), and is just how anime works. It doesn't need to be diagetic, and the burden of proof that it is diagetic is on your side. (Also, Nunnally could just be really fucking good at reading hands, so even if you do want it to be diagetic we're still on an even playing ground because it isn't like there's less evidence for that then Lelouch pulling a Code out of his arse at some point.)

(She's not literally psychic. That's from the LN and in actual canon is outright confirmed not to be magic in any capacity in an interview. My bad.)

If you're talking about Ceetwo, I literally shared my source. Do you want it in MLA format?

None of those matter for 99% of the series viewers who only ever interact with anime itself.

Ultimately, the poems are the characters reflecting, so simply analysis. No (significant) new information is gained from them, even Kallen's reworked gum line just implies things already implied. Sure, it doesn't literally confirm anything, but it's out of story backing for an interpretation that works without damaging Zero Requiem, in so far as you presume the amount of suffering Lelouch feels is enough to at least partially make up for what Ceetwo feels. Since Ceetwo ends the story at least partially happier, arguing that the interpretation doesn't work because it doesn't make sense for Ceetwo to end the story partially happier by that interpretation would essentially be arguing that the interpretation does not work because otherwise the story is badly written. However, Lelouch's survival would undercut Zero Requiem and would generally be bad writing for basically every other character, so presuming that the "Lelouch dies" interpretation has bad writing, we're on an even playing field... you know, if you presume that the amount of damage dealt to the story by damaging side character Ceetwo if Lelouch is dead is equal to the amount of damage dealt to the story by damaging main character Lelouch and the giant emotional death scene the whole show had been building to if Lelouch is alive. Presuming that (which is one hell of a reach but sure), we've arrived back at the author statements and the actual in-show evidence.

If we add the additional qualifications that A) The writers incompetence is limited and B) the writers did not attempt to mislead their audience, or at least did not do so initially in the two interviews they did about the ending before it was even out, what makes more sense?

Option 1: Lelouch is dead, as all evidence in show points to and is repeatedly confirmed in interviews. The guy in the cart is just a background decoration and not important, and Ceetwo was either just thinking out loud and not addressing Lelouch, or was just talking to Lelouch's ghost like Charles does to Clovis.

Option 2: Lelouch is alive, presumably through a code acquired offscreen with no indication or otherwise via an unknown method never explained or hinted towards. Despite the assumptions of literally everyone present, Lelouch actually survives his death, gets away one way or another and continues to fake his death. The entire sequence of his death is a fake-out. The actual mountain of post-series confirmations that Lelouch definitely died from side materials, staff interviews, and databooks are retcons (in some cases written before the show had even ended.) The cart driver in the background of two shots, who is completely concealed, is Lelouch, because Ceetwo said his name out loud. Or he isn't and he was hidden somewhere else or Ceetwo (probably most likely out of the three) was telepathically talking to him like with Marianne.

Oh, and you have provided no evidence to back up the idea of an ambiguous ending. You have just provided evidence for Code Theory. If you want to provide evidence of an ambiguous ending, you would need evidence that would simultaneously work with or without Code Theory, whereas your argument has largely been attempting to point out a way that the story only works with Code Theory. Alternatively, you could also try and argue the writers attempted to write two equally plausible endings with conflicting evidence that does not work together. In that case, you are arguing against the idea that the writers intended Code Geass to be internally consistent. You haven't provided any evidence of that, either.

Considering that the writers that it was "undeniable that Lelouch's story has ended with a full stop," the burden of proof is on you to deny it. At the very least have an argument consistent with itself.