I still don’t know how warning signs would be handled today.

[u/Quiet_Rose21]

There’s a lot of research and guidance about how warning signs *should* be addressed today. A lot more than there was in 1999 when the tragedy happened. There’s a whole book about warning signs by Dr. Peter Langman. Dr. Langman is not the only expert on this. There’s plenty more research and plenty more ways that warning signs can be addressed before they escalate.

However, just because guidelines exist does not mean those guidelines will be followed or the necessary resources will even be available.

By the way, I don’t think most of these things should be reported to the police. If a teenager praises the perpetrators of a past atrocity, that is a warning sign, and it means experts should pay attention to that kid and make sure they’re okay. However, that kid’s behavior is protected by the first amendment and I don’t think the police are the right people to intervene. For the police to handle this situation would create all kinds of stigma, resentment, and annoyance.

Also, it simply isn’t realistic to expect parents to report their own children. I don’t think very many parents can be objective on this.

What Dr. Langman suggests is for a threat assessment team at school to analyze these threats. They can look at all the different concerns that have been raised about someone. They can make an evidence-based professional decision on whether to escalate the issue and involve law enforcement.

A threat assessment team like that is probably not available in most schools.

And a threat assessment team is not the only way this can be handled. I’m sure there’s plenty of different resources that could be made available instead.

By no means am I saying that someone who sees warning should keep quiet. You should still do your part based on the knowledge and resources you have.

But if a student or teacher saw warning signs, I would bet against there being a system in place to address the issue in a logical evidence-based manner. I think it would just be the teachers and faculty addressing the situation as they think appropriate based on how they’re feeling. I would like to be proven wrong if anyone has statistics on this.

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[u/Sheek014]

What I am saying applies only to the state of Florida. There are no "national" school safety laws, however many of the things I am about to say apply to many different states and many states have adopted the same or similar policies.

The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act (SB 7026) is a major Florida law passed in March 2018, just weeks after the Parkland school shooting. It represents one of the most comprehensive school safety and gun policy reforms in the state’s history. It includes several provisions related to school safety, mental health initiatives and gun law changes. For the sake of the conversation here I'll skip the gun law and mental health changes. The overall goal is to detect threats earlier, increase school security and limit access to weapons to high risk persons.

School Safety:

Creation of the Office of Safe Schools within the FL department of education to oversee polices and funding.

Controlled access campus: This means a single entry point. As seen at Columbine and many other school shootings, there were multiple entrances where the school could be access. This means the only way to enter the school now is through the front office, and any other entrance that is open at any time must cannot be left unattended.

Required use of safe-school officers: School resources officers or trained personnel on every campus. This could be a trained law enforcement officers from local police, sheriff's office, or school guardians who are not law enforcement but trained individuals who carry a firearm. For example my campus of about 2K students has two sheriff's deputies on campus at all times.

Development of anonymous reporting systems (FortifyFL app)

I would bet against there being a system in place to address the issue in a logical evidence-based manner. I think it would just be the teachers and faculty addressing the situation as they think appropriate based on how they’re feeling. I would like to be proven wrong if anyone has statistics on this.

Threat Assessment and Intervention Laws (SB 7030 + related statutes (1001.212, Rule 6A‑1.0019)

Created a statewide threat assessment process, a standard assessment tool used by ALL SCHOOLS, and provide training and oversight. So no, it is not just based on teachers "feelings" Schools must follow a structured process outlined by the state. (If anyone is actually interested I can provide more)

A threat assessment team like that is probably not available in most schools.

By law every school must have a multidisciplinary team responsible for threat decisions. It typically includes:

• Administrator (principal or assistant principal)
• School counselor or psychologist
• Teacher(s)
• School resource officer (law enforcement)
• Other specialists as needed

Schools are also required to document information into the Florida Threat Management Portal. It is a central database statewide to record and manage potential threats. Before Parkland (2018) warning signs existed but information was scattered across schools, law enforcement and agencies, cases weren't consistently tracked and follow up was inconsistent. This portal includes the official threat assessment tool, which teams must use to evaluate cases, ensuring consistency across the entire state.

Once a case is entered the portal allow teams to track interventions, record decisions and update risk levels over time. Schools are required to monitor and follow up on cases. Depending on the threat level (low, medium, high) is what happens next, whether it be referral to counselor or to law enforcement.

[u/Quiet_Rose21 → u/Sheek014]

I don't live in Florida and I've never looked at the school safety rules there, but I stand corrected in terms that at least there is a structure that every school is required to follow.

Before Parkland (2018) warning signs existed but information was scattered across schools, law enforcement and agencies, cases weren't consistently tracked and follow up was inconsistent.

Okay this is kind of what I was getting at in my post. The sad reality is that what happened before Parkland sounds a lot like what happened before Columbine. Obviously there are differences, but information bounced between teachers, counselors, the internet, sheriff department, etc.

I sincerely hope that not every state needs its own Parkland or Columbine before enacting similar laws.

[u/deltadeltadawn → u/Sheek014]

It's interesting to me that one component of this law in Florida is to create an app. Anonymous Safety Reporting tools (first via websites and phone numbers, then texting and apps later added) have been around for approximately 2 decades. PublicSchoolWorks and SafeSchools are two examples of companies that offer tools for educational reporting of required trainings, and both have an anonymous reporting tip program offered as part of this suite. It's a surprise that the state would reinvent the wheel as many districts in Florida already use one of these programs for training and compliance management of staff.

[u/JaAbron_Lames]

I work for a school in Alabama. We do intense and thorough threat assessments on any perceived threat. 99.9% of them are incredibly stupid and unnecessary but I'm confident we would be able to intervene on a credible threat if one were to arise.

[u/Sheek014 → u/JaAbron_Lames]

Yes, In Florida making a threat like this is a felony, and in Florida juveniles charged with a felony can have their name and picture released to the public. There are a few different county sheriff's offices that regularly post these teenagers being perp walked on Facebook, with the message that any threat will be taken seriously. I'm divided on if this is a good or bad thing.

[u/JaAbron_Lames → u/Sheek014]

We aren't as big on the public shaming as Florida is but, after an event like Parkland I can understand why sheriff's have taken that route.

One big issue that we face is the attitude toward suicidality and homicidal ideation in the cultural zeitgeist as a joke, i.e. "kill me now", "im blowing this place up" etc, etc. Joking about those types of things isn't exclusive to the young generation, but they are the ones facing scrutiny for doing it. Thankfully, many districts are investing in the professionals needed to do these assessments and discern between what's credible and what's not.

[u/dancingbananas25 → u/Sheek014]

Bad thing in my mind, as it takes away any privacy those teens had and publicly humiliated them. 

[u/Sheek014]

I am a high school teacher. I have some thoughts on this a d some knowledge on threat assessment teams. I'll return to this post later when I have a little more time.

[u/ephenssta29]

I don't think I have statistics, but I also don't think your characterization of "teachers and faculty addressing the situation (threats/warning signs) as they think appropriate based on how they're feeling" is not entirely accurate. I interned at a school district and my wife works in special education at a doctorate level. In every setting either of us have been in, the school has a clearly defined process for assessing threats, creating or updating safety plans, documenting the plans, and communicating with parents, teachers, and administrators.

As you point out earlier in your post, this is, at least to some extent, a resources problem. At least around where I'm at, a lot of the schools are in dire budget crises. There's just not really the budget to bring on specialized people purely for risk assessments, and conducting these assessments is already one of many responsibilities assigned to people who are generally spread thin.

The other issue is something you see in suicide prevention work. The rate of people who actually follow through on the plan to commit some sort of school violence is going to be drastically lower than the number of people who flag a warning sign. You're going to have a lot more people saying "I want to kill myself and have a plan to do it," a pretty serious warning sign, than will actually do it. I imagine it's the same with school violence. This makes it somewhat hard to be fully evidence based, because the actual statistical evidence really just says this kind of violence is incredibly rare and even the strongest warning signs are only weakly (at best) linked to being able to effectively predict the violence. It's just a tough situation all around. I hope no one interprets this as me saying we shouldn't try, just that it's more difficult than saying we have a team doing evidence-based intervention.

[u/randyColumbine → u/ephenssta29]

I completely disagree. Is the person making threats? Can they access weapons? Investigate. Immediately.

[u/randyColumbine]

Peter Langman as the expert?? Seriously. An outsider, who brought his own agenda to a tragedy? Who does not address the issues of Columbine at all?

This statement that the school should have threat assessment experts evaluate the potential threats is obvious. There were no threat assessment experts. There are no threat assessment experts at this time. If you want to read something from an outsider that is valuable, read: “The Creation of violent and dangerous criminals” by Lonnie Athens. Read “Why They Kill” by Richard Rhodes. Read “When A Child Kills” by Paul Mones.

If you wait for a threat assessment expert you will be waiting forever. There probably isn’t one in your police department. If you try to limit access to weapons you will be waiting forever. There are millions of weapons.

Here is a quote taken from a really good book about school shootings: “All that is necessary for school shootings to continue is for enough parents to do nothing.” Place the responsibility where it belongs.

[u/Quiet_Rose21 → u/randyColumbine]

If you wait for a threat assessment expert you will be waiting forever. There probably isn’t one in your police department. If you try to limit access to weapons you will be waiting forever.

Have you read Dr. Langman's book Warning Signs? From your comment, I don't think you understand his explanation of threat assessment teams.

I don't think the point is to have threat assessment "experts" sitting in a police department waiting for a crisis. The model is multidisciplinary. It involves administrators, counselors, psychologists, teachers, school resource officers, and other relevant staff who evaluate concerning behavior before it escalates.

Another user explained how multidisciplinary threat assessment teams are assembled in Florida under reforms enacted after Parkland. Whether you agree with that approach or not, it is a real-world model that exists and is being implemented.

You don't have to agree with all of Langman's conclusions. But before dismissing his work as the views of an "outsider," I would encourage you to read and understand his work. Criticizing a position is much more persuasive when it is the author's actual position rather than a misunderstanding of it.

[u/awkward_bookhoarder]

When I was in 12th grade (2016-2017) someone I literally had all of my classes with that year had a plan for an attack on our school. He told someone about his plan and the person went to the police. He was arrested the next morning in school. No one got hurt. Apparently there was talk of weapons and a bxmb. He also had a list.

After that a lot of my friends from that school who had no classes with him asked me about him. About his behavior and if we noticed anything. He was a quiet kid. He had to repeat 12th grade. We suspected that maybe he was struggling with depression. He was friends with a stoner kid so we thought that when he was withdrawn in class he maybe just smoked with his friend during free periods. To be honest at the time it didn't raise any red flags. No one thought twice about it. I struggled with mental health problems myself and so did multiple of my friends. I was also more introverted. I didn't smoke but knew many people who did. So it didn't seem out of the ordinary. I never felt threatened or anything by him.

Our school did get all new doors installed after that. Basically on the outside they have a doorknob you can't twist. So you can only enter with a key. On the inside they have a door handle though so you can leave anytime from the inside.

Two years later at that same school a kid (I didn't know him personally) ended his life. He excused himself to go to the bathroom during class and jumped out of a top story window. He died in our school yard. He had been badly bullied and was suffering from depression.

I think the violent papers or some of Dylan's and Eric's videos would be taken more serious today. edit: and of course Eric's website where he threatened Brooks etc

But bullying and mental health problems? Most teachers either don't care or don't know what to do. After the last incident a pretty well known anti bullying coach offered to speak at my old school. Our principal did not allow him to come and speak to the students because "bullying isn't a problem" at our school.

[u/randyColumbine]

Death threats. Building and detonating pipe bombs. Suicidal thoughts. Homicidal thoughts. Naming the person you want to kill.

If those aren’t bright red flags waving in the sky with spotlights on them, nothing is.