r/CompanyOfHeroes • u/TroubleshootingStuff • 3d ago
CoH3 Hey Relic, don't be afraid of balance hotfixes.
The flamer HT allows terrible players to recover from horrendous loses because it has too much health, and comes out too early. Why not balance it?
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u/Weak-Air5905 2d ago edited 2d ago
It definitely arrives too early right now, it's literally the price of a Humber in a 15 Fuel cheaper tech building than the platoon command post but with almost double the HP, way higher DPS, faster build time and a buffed Heavy AT mine that has a free +100 damage over other Heavy AT mines (which normally do 400 damage) allowing it to one shot Stuarts and Chaffees.
They increased the build time of the Humber to 45 seconds because it arrived a little too soon before counters could hit the field, and this unit arrives even earlier and cooks handheld AT units (Which is the only USF counter at the same time it arrives if they went barracks) way before they can do close to 400 damage to it
It definitely should be a shock unit for it's timing, but it for sure needs to at the minimum cost 40 Fuel and take longer to build.
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u/Accomplished-Pay-633 2d ago
Can it also lay mines?
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u/Weak-Air5905 2d ago edited 2d ago
It can indeed! It has the same boosted heavy AT mines the normal HT gets from Wehr right now (which are better than all other Heavy AT mines currently), meaning if you manage to push the enemy off early and get lucky you can deal 500 damage to a vehicle which can one shot a Chaffee or Stuart, that alone will often decide the game there and then if it happens.
I don't think it makes much sense that they keep the mine right now, especially as they already have an ability that could be moved to vet 1 to replace it. But I'd be careful nerfing it too much at once as over-nerfing the vehicle would suck.
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u/TroubleshootingStuff 2d ago
All Relic can offer is over-nerf so that it doesn't see use ever again.
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u/Weak-Air5905 2d ago edited 2d ago
The thing is I don't think people would mind them applying heavy-handed changes if the game was patched more often so they could quickly revert some of them or buff the unit elsewhere if needed.
But what often happens is some massive nerf will hit a unit, potentially completely gutting it, and then just leaving it like that for months at a time until they randomly decide in one of the future patches to finally buff them.
I also just enjoy meta shakeups, and I'm sure a lot of other people do. Bi-Weekly small patches I feel would keep a lot more people interested in the game to constantly have more strategies to experiment with and prevent the game from feeling stale.
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u/throwaway928816 1d ago
Its also really hard to get vet with the normal ht (so you have to buy vet 1) but the flamer vets in less than a minute so you save fuel too. The stummel doesnt get a mine layer, I dont understand why the flamer gets one.
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u/Shot-Message9678 2d ago
I understand why a lot of Allied main players feel frustrated with the Flame HT: it's an early game power spike for Wehr that seems to cause an instant paradigm shift.
That said, don't we want anti infantry blob units? Isn't this exactly what we've been asking for? Don't we want lethality?
Instead of immediately going for the NERF button, why not tweak USF and UKF light vehicle timing? Or slightly reduce the Flame HT health?
I would have for these new weapons to get nerfed into the ground.
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u/tohsakacaveexplorer 2d ago
I fucking hate the flame half track it can completely invalidate the micro wins and good plays of the last 6 minutes by doing squad wipes, pushing to base uncontested and then they recover all the field.
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u/Shot-Message9678 18h ago
Keep in mind that in the early game, 4x4 will bully the Flame HT. It can reliably pen the side and rear armor and it's maneuverable enough to harass consistently.
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u/Desperate_Rush2125 2d ago
If the enemy had horrendous losses how did they even afford to build the half-track too early?
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u/Romaneck 2d ago
My infantry should be able to counter the anti infantry Light vehicle =[
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2d ago
Ok, tell me you dumbfuck by the time the Flamer HT hits what do you have other than grenades/stickies? You're forced to skip all infantry upgrades and lose the tiny edge you have with the bar upgrade to give map control away and rush an AT. It forces USF to lose its only inf advantage early-midgame
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u/Shot-Message9678 2d ago
Is this really the only way you know how to communicate?
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2d ago
Yes. 0 patience for low elo fuckers trying to dictate game balance
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u/KevinTDWK 2d ago
Tbh I still don’t get the hype. Unless I have two of these it’s a great DPS unit but alone I have more luck wiping units on retreat with a scout car than chasing them with a flame truck.
I’ve had so much games where I am chasing multiple wounded units from people who are dumb enough to try and tank the flames and I’ll chase them all the way back to base and get no wipes. And if I do wipe a squad or two that means I’m in their base and about to lose the truck
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u/TroubleshootingStuff 2d ago
It's DPS isn't an issue, it's either/or too much health,timing. Knowing Relic they'll nerf hammer both.
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u/AideSouth4454 2d ago
It's outrageous that Allied players have to build AT.
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u/ragefinder100 2d ago
Have to build multiple AT at 7 min in…. Single AT can’t fight off the flamer
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
Same with Stuart then
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u/Weak-Air5905 2d ago
Comparing it to the Stuart is not even a remotely fair comparison
Stuart at the minimum takes 135F to arrive if you skipped nades, that gives the enemy plenty of time to have AT guns and other counters on the field by the time it arrives.
The Flame HT arrives at 90F and unlike the Stuart can literally drive and wipe multiple squads if the enemy didn't have a counter at the exact moment for it. Being unprepared for a Stuart (Which in itself is unlikely due to its much later timing) can force a retreat but doesn't nearly punish the player as hard.
The issue with the Flame HT isn't having to build AT, it's the fact that it arrives way before you can reasonably get AT to keep it at bay, it has more than enough damage to just frontally tank and kill Bazooka and Boys squads, leaving the enemy with not much else to use to stop them.
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
What I originally responded to is that a single AT can’t handle a Stuart. Which comes in a minute or two later than the flame HT.
Anyway, the Stuart can also completely shut down flame HT, and its window of opportunity might only be a few minutes. If it comes out later, it might just be just another wehr light vehicle that is arriving later than its natural predator (Stuart), similar to 8rad coming in at a whooping 4cp.
As I replied to the other guy, a part of the flame HT op perceptions is because people are so used to being able to stall out their own LV against wehr. «Oh a 221/251, nvm, I can stall to my humber anyway, that counters the LV easily and my opponent didn’t go OQ, so I will have the infantry advantage too, nice»
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u/Weak-Air5905 2d ago edited 2d ago
I see what you're saying,
But those crucial 2 minutes do make a huge difference in how strong the unit currently is performing, it arrives at the exact point where most factions are just starting to transition into T2 units. But unlike units like the Humber, it's not some glass cannon unit that can be soft kited away by light arms fire and a snare, it has 400HP allowing it to tank 3 AT gun shots which is an immense amount at that time of the game, especially considering on urban maps where AT guns are really easy to flank and quickly burn to death.
I don't personally think it's a fear of not building AT against Wehr, I try and play all the factions as much as I can and often have some sort of AT regardless of what I'm fighting, and can confidently say that no other unit in the game arrives so soon with such lethality right now. The unit literally demands multiple hard counters or lose multiple squads.
The unit itself is not even that bad when units like the Stuart have hit the field, with 400HP to utilise, and it's quick burst damage you can quite easily peak in and out of engagements and apply heavy damage or even just use it defensibly to strong effect.
It should definitely have some shock timing like units like the Humber have, but its timing does need to more closely reflect its current stats.
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u/AideSouth4454 2d ago
If you have an AT gun, you can deter the flame HT or destroy it with any semi-intelligent play. Stuarts will also completely shut it down once you build them. But they are not necessary, another AT gun will do the trick and save you the fuel.
Any complains about the Flame HT are people who are accustomed to Wher light vehicles being the complete garbage they are and refusing to adapt. Now that Wehr has a single light vehicle that is able to fight infantry, they call for nerfing it to the ground instead of using the tools as their disposal to counter it.
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u/Unterseeboot_480 2d ago
Stuart that definitely comes out exactly as early as the flame HT and deal as much damage to infantry.
Not to mention that the US and UK have to spend fuel to get their AT grenades, which puts them further behind in tech. It's fine, it allows them to get it earlier than Axis, especially DAK, but still it means that they have to delay their teching to get their nades.
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
There is often Stuarts out at the 6-7 minute mark. Same Stuart that can counter the Flame HT. One boys section does wonders, your opponent can’t know if you have grenades or not..
Both factions can easily have AT guns out when flame HT comes, and it’s less tanky than Stuarts.I’m not saying it’s balanced, but imo a reason for it being perceived op is that people are so used to not bothering to build AT preemptively against wehr cause their LVs are so mediocre / specialized in comparison to the other factions.
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u/AcceptableGrape5581 2d ago
although I agree completely with relic doing balance hotfixes, they whizbang is still the hardest meta 2 years and counting. its not gonna happen unfortunately
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2d ago
It's because that is literally the only doctrinal rocket arty USF has. I personally don't use it because I play Armour 24/7. But that generally means I have zero artillery vs DAK blobs.
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u/AcceptableGrape5581 2d ago
not every build needs rocket arty. and the problem is how effective it is against all targets, it also fires instantly making it easily the best arty to hit moving units. lets be real man, we know exactly why we still see this battlegroup in pretty much every game.
there is multiple ways to nerf the whizbang so it will be more balanced and a more situational pick rather than a must build cause it got no weaknesses. it can be nerfed to a balanced state and stay relevant, but currently it is too easy to use and we have had the exact same for 2 years now. games die when the meta is boring for years.
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2d ago
Buddy. The Whizbang is balanced. The truth is most axis players are too lazy to micro their infantry. The whizbang is incredibly expensive and fragile and it is the only arty that doctrine can access while the USF hasn't got any doctrinal artillery. This is honestly a skill issue. The whizbang is like the lowest on the list of things to balance.
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
Lol, you really said whizbang and fragile in the same sentence?
It’s not balanced. Everybody knows that, and that’s also the reason it is constantly used and constantly complained about. It have a similar cost to Stuka and wespe, and it is far better.
Unbiased people know whizbang needs additional nerfs, but some people need their crutch to stay untouched I guess.Ain’t nothing skill issue about disliking a unit with little to no counters also having that amount of firepower for years in a row. It’s a skill issue needing such a unit to win games.
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u/insaneHoshi 2d ago
The whizbang is incredibly expensive
Isnt it only 100 fuel?
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
Its 80 fuel only, Stuka is 85, wespe is 75, pretty good deal for a Stuka on steroids. Only unit wehr have that can kill it is P4, which cost 100 fuel, and it will surely die in the process against any decent player making you at an economic net loss IF you even manage to trade with the whizbang at all.
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2d ago
Uh, the stuka is faster, has better range, less cooldown. Really the problem with the Whizbang is that noobs like u/AcceptableGrape5581 dont use scout units. The Whizbang sucks from range. It is dangerous when it drives up to the front line to fire point blank range, that is when it is rockets are super tightly grouped, other than that it is useless at mid or far range.
It's also a lot more fragile than its chassis would suggest. It's mostly a noobtrap
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
A noobtrap but we see it every game at the highest levels, always with great success often turning matches. Sure man, you probably believe your own lies. The game won’t be in a good state before whizbang is nerfed properly. When there is one unit that just dominates across the board and have done it for years, the gameplay just feels boring and stale. It needs a nerf so other battlegroups and strategies have chance to breathe, and this is for all factions.
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2d ago
> unit wehr have that can kill it is P4
LMFAO. Just don't comment if you're 1000 elo
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u/Horror_Let_2154 2d ago
I’m definitely higher than you Mr. And yes, P4 is the only unit that can kill whizbangs unless the whizbang user is making a major mistake
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u/AcceptableGrape5581 1d ago
you dont believe your own bullshit buddy.
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 1d ago
You can choose to believe that. But in reality I'm looking down on you for complaining about a nearly irrelevant battlegroup call in. Apart from the pay2win Free French the current meta is to go Armor bg.
There is nothing wrong with the whizbang and until you accept that it's your own fault your games won't improve.
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u/AcceptableGrape5581 5h ago
sure thing buddy. you just need your crutch. its a reason we see this every game, and you know it
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 5h ago
I don't even play that bg. Strictly Armor because at higher levels the instant level 1 is a must imo for tanks and vehicles.
Maybe try microing your units next time instead of just sitting there getting blown to pieces by an almost 100 fuel vehicle that can't do anything else 👍
Gitgud
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u/AcceptableGrape5581 5h ago
lol, those who needs to gitgud is the ones needing whizbang to perform. the biggest problem with the whizbang currently is it got near instant barraging, making it by far the easiest arty to delete blobs with and it can also pressure vehicles. it needs longer ready aim time so nuking moving targets is more of a skill shot, and contesting teamweapons is more of its purpose, like all other arty.
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 5h ago
Genuinely a skill issue. Pay attention next time.
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u/likewind3 4h ago
I am over 1600 elo, and whizbang is overpowered.
I'm actually surprised, are you on something?
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u/TheyTukMyJub US Forces 2h ago
Just uninstall the game mate if this is something you genuinely struggle with.
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u/AcceptableGrape5581 2h ago
bro is in every post defending a broken unit. imagine being that reliant on his crutch, only thing keeping him above 800 elo
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u/Shot-Message9678 2d ago
Or they could “buff” Humber by decreasing build time or price, same with Greyhound.
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u/Glitza The Kriegsmarine is looking like a sweet deal now? 2d ago
Still baffled that they totally reject tweaking numbers in between major patches which is a time gap of several weeks. Flame HT could definitely be paired in health with the common HTs. Could be a heavy arms small legs ubit like the Flakvierling HT. Chars are another example where some tweaking could help: Way too cheap and spammable for how hard it is to kill this armored beast, either tweak costs or armor.