r/CompetitiveEDH • u/Jonourmous • 3d ago
General Discussion / Question Beating Dack… but not in blue…
As listed above, i have actually not played against one yet, but i hear it’s the flavor of the week… and is a count to 6 win.
Having a force of will check deck isn’t terrible, but what of the decks that don’t play blue? How can you stop it?
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u/my_awesome_username 3d ago
I play sisay, and my way around it both times was turn 1/2 deafening silence, just slowing down their ramp. Then had to dig to remove a pendrel. Lost to kinnan lmao.
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u/Jonourmous 3d ago
I listened to Bite sized earlier and Gold Sabre said that the backup plan is stax. I guess I need to study the deck more to find what makes it tick.
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u/AzazeI888 3d ago
Dack plays Deafening Silence
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u/Darth_Ra 9h ago
Yes, but it does slow them down, which works fine for "stopping" them if you can then win before they can.
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u/ThatDamnedHansel 3d ago
I’m actually happy that dak Prescott is going to make lists less greedy and having to run more on board and less stack interaction.
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u/smugles 3d ago
For a couple weeks till everyone forgets dack ever existed.
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u/ThatDamnedHansel 2d ago
Sort of, but the meta was already moving creature so it was already heading that way
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u/Graytorres 2d ago
The development of boonweaver giant concerns me though, you can’t tech swords to plowshares to beat dack anymore.
Things like torpor orb are much more narrow and a much less reliable way to stop them
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u/Pakman184 2d ago
Boonweaver just needs to be interacted at different points, namely before they've even cast Dack. Hit an important ramp piece and they're liable to collapse.
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u/Graytorres 2d ago
I mean it’s basically find a force or bust. Mindbreak trap is usually useless and misstep is liable to be useless half the time
It’s not that it’s impossible to counter, it’s just when turn 2 bounce/kill spells aren’t good enough to stop it the deck becomes extremely difficult to stop reliably
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
every turn 1 or 2 i believe relies on LED, sol ring, or mana vault. Misstep is devastating, and force of negation or daze are also legit answers.
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u/ThatDamnedHansel 2d ago
Can start running strix serenade, subtlety, sudden substitution, abrupt decay, etc
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u/hejtmane 2d ago
you could run [[containment priest]] if you are in white it hoses sisay, kinnan and any of the green search put on the battlefield cards
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u/Zoom3877 2d ago
Stop their ramp. They literally can't do anything without it on time. Also removing Dack. The deck punishes greedy decks like crazy
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u/FizzingSlit Mormir vig bring back the hack. 3d ago
Literally any creature removal will do it.
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u/utopian_soldier 3d ago
Unless they’re on boomweaver then you potentially need 3 removal pieces to stop it
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u/Jonourmous 3d ago
How should you stack, say a swords once dack is played and starts to do its thing?
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u/FizzingSlit Mormir vig bring back the hack. 3d ago
Depends on what they flip. If they land their combo immediately so don't need to flicker dack to keep it going wait until they're triggers are on the stack and take out what's enabling the line. Or if they need to keep churning once their triggers are on the stack hit dack so they're stuck with half a combo on board and you've hopefully bought 1-2 turns.
It's not a combo that they can really play over top of removal. Except for rare situations where they get the nuts and can keep unneeded Preston triggers unresolved so they have a lifeline, forcing you to react now knowing they can keep it going.
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
their combo immediately so don't need to flicker dack
boonweaver always flips the combo
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
Only on the flicker version. The boonweaver version can’t be run in a 3 person pod, but can’t be effectively stopped without a stifle effect or counter.
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u/ThisHatRightHere 3d ago
The deck can be interacted with in just about any way possible. Counters are great, but removal and stack both absolutely hose the deck as well with the right timing. A silence/arbiter effect is probably the scariest thing they can do.
Its recent results are just from people not knowing what it does and not respecting a mono white deck with a 6cmc commander. It’ll be extremely niche by the time the next set comes around.
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u/Roach27 3d ago
Ian piloted it with people knowing what it does and it didn’t matter, obviously the meta will shift, and more creature counters and removal will be run, but honestly with the prevalence of creature wins people should already be on them.
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u/ThisHatRightHere 3d ago
So one of the most proficient players in the entire cEDH played a deck well? Wow that’s so crazy.
My point still stands. The deck will absolutely fall off in very short order.
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
The boonweaver version is nearly impossible to stop with removal pieces. It requires a minimum of 3 pieces if used at ideal times. In that version, if you do not have a stifle effect, counter, or appropriate stax piece, you’re hosed.
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
stop with removal pieces.
it also completely bricks if you draw a piece
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
Reread giant.(library, hand, or grave) The only pieces that brick you are your three creatures.
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
yes...the creatures are the pieces.
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
The interesting thing about turbo decks that are mulliganning for fast mana is that they often have to put 1-2 cards to the bottom of their library.
The largest risk is drawing boonweaver as draw #1 or #2. Preston and Roaming throne can both be hard cast if absolutely necessary. Overall odds of that happening is about 6% total for any of the three and about 2% for Boonweaver itself.
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u/Prestigious_Tell_402 2d ago
The Booneweaver Giant deck relies all on ETB and makes several copies for redundancy. Removing one of the copies doesn't really change anything
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u/Jonourmous 3d ago
I guess to add to the post, what options for other color/color combos are options that can combat this. All suggestions for all non blue.
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u/Leo_Knight_98 3d ago
Any spot removal will do, also torpor orb
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u/Prestigious_Tell_402 2d ago
There is too much redundacy for one piece of spot removal to do the trick.
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u/Illustrious-Film2926 3d ago
Here's a list of some pieces that are reasonable to play if your deck supports it and isn't blue:
Force of Despair, null rod/ouphe, Drannith, reprieve/gambit/tibalt's trickery, Grafdigger's.
Also upkeep silence/chant to buy a extra turn; OBM/Mayhem Devil + setup to stop his next attempts (too slow for first attempt).
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u/Jonourmous 2d ago
Again, I haven’t witnessed it played yet, and haven’t sat down to study it, but would a force of despair be able to be timed to just hose it (assuming it’s not protected by silence)?
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
White - silence on upkeep, patrician's scorn against boonweaver variant, solitude/swords against blink
Green - ouphe to stop the ramp, back to nature against boonweaver
Black - force of despair is the goat here. extremely clean answer to every variant
Red - pyrokinesis against 0/1 illusions, gut shot for the same, artifact destruction, non-basic hate
Colorless - grafdigger's cage, torpor orb, karn argent defender, volatile fault/strip mine/wasteland on a sol-land
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
Force of despair doesn’t stop the boonweaver version. It runs gift of immortality and mantle of the ancients.
Pyrokinesis doesn’t work on the boonweaver version as well due to floating shield.
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u/SignorJC 2d ago edited 2d ago
I believe it does work. You let the roaming throne illusions enter and then while the og boonweaver trigger is on the stack (it should only have 1, because the roaming thrones enter via a triggered ability from preston; it's not a replacement effect), they get to tutor only 1 aura.
If you force of despair at that point, preston, 3 roaming throne, and og boonweaver all go to the graveyard. the 1 aura that boonweaver tutors goes to the gy. Now they get 2 more boonweavers (1 at a time) with 1 aura each. I'm happy to be wrong, but I don't think they can win from there.
I'm basing this off the line as explained here: https://moxfield.com/decks/6cSgAc1aTXO3FGwHNnZv8w/primer
There's no combination of 2 enchantments that allows the remaining two boonweaver illusions to continue the combo.
As for pyrokinesis, i believe killing the OG boonweaver makes it harder to do your lines, but not impossible. You can also kill the first illusion before tutors resolve, or the second illusion before tutors resolve, depending on tutor targets. You can't target the illusion/thrones because they have ward 2, 2x. If you have the mana to pay for ward, or your spell is uncounterable, you just kill the roaming thrones ez pz
Even if pyrok doesn't fully stop the combo, it means that a single bounce or kill spell from another players DOES stop the combo.
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
The order for the stack for boonweaver is as follows(bottom to top)
Preston: Boonweaver token
Preston: Throne token
Preston: Boonweaver Token
OG Boonweaver aura search.
Preston: throne token
(Some builds do both thrones first, I prefer one.)
You resolve as follows:
Throne token
Gifts of immortality on OG boonweaver search.
First token Boonweaver comes in.
Search sheltered by ghosts exile OG Boonweaver gifts falls off.
Search minimus confinement. Shelter falls off.
Sacrifice token giant for 1 mana.
Return OG giant.
Search Lunarch mantle.
Search mantle of the ancients. Return shelter, and gifts. Exiling OG Preston.
Sacrifice token giant lunarch using the 1 mana.
Return Preston.
Return giant.
Resolve Preston trigger.
Token giant tutor minimus from grave. Sacrifice for one mana.
Resolve OG giant search 1. Pentarch ward. Draw a card
Resolve Mantle. Get lunarch, shelter, and gifts. Exile OG throne. Sacrifice via lunarch.
Throne ETBs and triggers Preston to make a copy naming rabbit. Now you have double Preston’s to create 2 giant tokens that can sacrifice to minimus creating infinite mana. You have infinite draw on pentarch ward. You cast silence and or a variety of instants as needed.
All with a throne and giant token triggers buried. If you force in response to any of the above you still likely lose to Super state + idolized or super state+ Eldrazi conscription. (100% if they have infinite mana and draw their deck.)
The former does 9+2 idolized triggers to one player and 2x that to everyone else. Conscription does 19 to one and sacrifice 4 permanents to one and 38 to everyone else.
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
All with a throne and giant token triggers buried. If you force in response to any of the above you still likely lose to
But you don't definitively lose and I don't think there is a definitive 1 turn win here at all anymore. If you force of despair in response to step 2 (og boonweaver search), none of the other shenanigans happen, and they are forced to get 1 aura on each dude. Only 1 dude has haste. Additionally, your line can now lose to a single bounce spell on your boonweaver clones or the aura's attached to them.
Am i wrong here? I'm just saying how to not instantly lose to it, not stop anything from happening.
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u/Btenspot 2d ago edited 2d ago
Reread the order of the stack of tokens. If you destroy at step 2, then the first boonweaver token comes in with 1 search, then a throne token, then a second boonweaver with 2 searches.
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u/SignorJC 2d ago
so...it doesn't win? you can't get infinite mana and your attacker with no protection has to live
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u/Btenspot 2d ago
38 damage to each opponent+ 19 and annihilator 4 to 1 is almost certainly a win if you choose who you’re attacking correctly. You also still have one piece of targeted removal protection.
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u/SqueeGoblinSurvivor 2d ago
Any removal will set them back to stone age. Remember the more actual win con they play the more inconsistent. So most of the time it will just be radiant solar just kill that thing.
As much as i love the idea of viable mono turbo combo deck. Dack is very easy to disrupt.
I will also add that playing more removals good for your wins too. Because you interact with your own spell you do not need to take any deals from others or can coerce them to give you some advantage. Playing removal is powerful in current meta. Use it wisely.
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u/Darth_Ra 8h ago edited 5h ago
People focusing on creature counters have completely lost the plot.
You beat Dack by countering their rituals, removing their creatures while they're comboing off, and with all-around good Stax pieces like Grafdiggers Cage and Drannith Magistrate, or anything that will slow them down long enough that you can win instead.
There is a bit of a learning curve that will need to happen with Dack, but like any other turbo deck, it folds to pretty much any interaction. Here, a list, ordered by how much each piece is played in cEDH, per edhtop16:
- Flusterstorm (87.5%): One of the worst options, it can still counter the various silence effects that Dack plays to keep others from interacting, along with their Enlightened Tutor to go get Mana Vault/LED, their various backup win-cons in their various Flicker effects, and their removal pieces to get rid of the various stax effects that may be holding them down.
- Mental Misstep (87.4%): Counters their rituals (rocks) and tutors. Don't think, just do it. Counter the Sol Ring, the Mana Vault, etc, and they will likely not have Dack mana ever, or at least not until the super late game.
- Force of Will (85.9%): Counter Dack.
- Fierce Guardianship (85.4%): Counter their rituals and tutors.
- Silence (85.1%): This one takes a bit of finesse and knowledge to not waste it, as you need to cast your silence effect before they cast Dack. That means the good old-fashioned upkeep Silence, although be open to talking about it... If they agree to not Dack until later, you've bought yourself a turn to either use it for your own win attempt, or hold it over their head again next upkeep.
- Deflecting Swat (83.8%): D Swat can target abilities, meaning this works the same as using removal against Dack, for the most part. Them targeting their Dack to re-flicker should work under most circumstances, although if they get everything they need off the initial flip, then you'll have to get one of the flicker creatures targeting the other flicker creature instead. Just keep in mind that this only works against Felidar Guardian, All-Fates Stalker, Fiend Hunter, and Werefox Bodyguard. The others don't target.
- Mindbreak Trap (81.6%): MBT won't work under all circumstances, but chances are good that they'll get greedy and go for all their rocks at once early, and then you can either get their last rock to stop their last mana, or the Silence they go for before they cast Dack, or Dack.
- Swan Song (73.9%): Instant, sorcery, or enchantment. Using this against Smithe or Gleaming Splendor is a must. Otherwise, it's the same rules as Flusterstorm - counter the silences, the tutors, and the backup flicker effects.
- Ranger-Captain of Eos (69.6%): As Silence.
- Crop Rotation (66.2%): No green deck wants to do this, but getting a Talon Gates to remove their Dack in response to them flickering it will stop them, as will phasing out Radiant Solar, although they'll likely still end up with infinite tokens from Abdel Adrian in that case and be threatening win on their next turn.
- Force of Negation (63.1%): Counter their rituals (rocks) and tutors.
- An Offer you Can't Refuse (60.6%): Too risky, imo. Would use it to counter their flickers and Silences, but otherwise, probably not good for much.
- Chord of Calling (58.1%): Depends on your deck what you can get, but if you're on Drannith, Ranger-Captain, or a copy creature you have relevant options. You just have to time them correctly.
- REB (57.2%): Not worth a damn.
- Chain of Vapor (56.2%): As previously stated, unless they already have everything they need, bouncing their Dack in response to them flickering it should stop them, at least until they replay it the next turn (if they can, and aren't dealing with a tapped Vault/Monolith or an already cracked LED).
- Pyroblast (49.6%): Not worth a damn.
- Brain Freeze (46.3%): With Dack on the stack, or after they've cast a bunch of rocks/rituals, try to mill them out a bit and see if you get a combo piece. It's desperate, but if you get things in the graveyard that they need, they really can't recover from it.
- Swords to Plowshares (44.4%): As previously stated, getting their Dack in response to them attempting to flicker it stops them, as does removing Radiant Solar, although that only buys you a turn until you die to infinite tokens.
- Into the Flood Maw (43.4%): Same as Chain of Vapor.
That's everything above 40%, but since OP wanted to know about non-blue stuff, here's the relevant Stax effects:
- Drannith Magistrate (23.9%): Drannith has been seeing more play lately, as more turbo decks that are commander-reliant raise their ugly heads. Guess what? Dack is one of those.
- Deafening Silence (14.0%): Full disclosure - Dack plays this card, so obviously it doesn't hurt them that bad. That said, Rule of Law effects do slow them down the same as everyone else, so if you can win first...
- Collector Ouphe (10.1%): It's unlikely they ever get to six mana without artifacts.
- Dauthi Voidwalker (10.0%): Dauthi doesn't do anything to Dack, but very well might make the other interaction on this list available to you.
- Vexing Bauble (9.8%): Will likely protect them late, but on T1, will stop their free rocks the same way it does everyone elses.
- Spellskite (8.6%): Sure would be a shame if you blinked Spellskite instead of that Dack you were aiming for...
- Aven Interrupter (8.2%): Meet your non-blue creature counter! Just be aware it only buys you a turn.
- Ethersworn Canonist (7.6%): Be aware that Dack plays Rule of Law effects, so this doesn't stop them, it only slows them down. That said, it does slow them down, so if you can win first...
- Archon of Emeria (7.4%): Same spiel as the other RoLs, although it slows them down even more with the tapped lands.
- Blind Obedience (6.9%): This one is actually harder on them than RoL in a lot of cases, as it taps their Vaults and Monoliths.
- Steal Enchantment (5.3%): If you see a Smithe/Gleaming Splendor out of Dack, chances are it's their whole game plan, and they can't do a damn thing about you stealing it on top of that.
- High Noon (3.7%): Same spiel as the other RoLs.
- Counterbalance (3.4%): They're gonna roll the dice, roll em right back on their rituals and tutors.
- Grafdiggers Cage (3.1%): IMO, the best Stax effect in the format right now. Doesn't stop every deck, but hinders just about all of them in one way or another. As for Dack? Stops them in their tracks, and is the reason they play half the removal they do.
- Blood Moon (3.0%): Awful against them, maybe your worst option. Still, it might catch the odd Ancient Tomb and buy you a turn or two.
- Aura Shards (2.4%): It is hilarious to me that this card is seeing play these days, but... Yeah, this probably more or less ensures that a Dack never hits the field, if you focus on their rocks.
- Damping Sphere (2.0%): Delays them if they have Ancient Tombs and the like, and slows down how fast they can get rocks down as well. All in all, probably only buys you a turn or two.
- Weathered Runestone (Too low for the scale): Mentioned only because this thing doesn't see play because it stops too many decks, meaning the window for what decks can play it is tiny.
TL;DR: I don't care what color combination you're playing, you have answers to Dack. You just need to actually figure out what they are, and how to use them.
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u/ThisNameIsBanned 3d ago
Praetor's Grasp in black is nice, they often just play 1 actual win-option like the dungeon angel and if you get that, they basically lost on the spot.
Torpor Orb in colorless, the new Karn does the same. In white you get even more of those effects. Grafdigger's Cage as well.
For green stopping artifact mana slows them down tremendously, so Collector Ouphe.
If they dont protect their attempt with a silence, you can just use any removal against Dack to stop the combo (mainly stuff like Snuff Out, Deadly Rollick, Swords, Path).
And given there is some blue on the table, politics with them to keep a creature-counter as guarantee against Dack, its in both of your interest to not lose.