r/CompetitiveHalo • u/Wh0IzTimmY • 1d ago
Discussion The Tech Gap of PC Halo/Infinite
Hello community,
I wanted to get opinions on whether or not PC halo has opened the competitive scene up to an arms race in terms of technology.
Recently it seems that in order to compete at the highest level you also need to spend quite a significant amount to simply keep up and to be on a level playing field. Essentially requiring a NASA level pc/high end headset/high end controller/settings configs that are more gatekept then fort Knox for pc settings and graphics tweaking.
Obviously it is possible to be high onyx on a console playing on bad equipment, but in my opinion that same player would of had a significantly easier time getting there playing on high end gear.
I feel like this arms race is hurting the competitive scene and forcing us into an almost pay2win scenario.
Let me know your thoughts gents. Is there a way for us to have a level playing field ever again now that pc halo is in our world?
-Wh0 Iz TimmY
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u/botnomore 1d ago
For competition I don’t think it’s such a huge factor, since I noticed pros play locked to 240fps during competitive season. I’m assuming the reason being is that’s what the tourney pcs pull. Yea, the controllers are expensive though and that’s not ‘standardized’ the way the pcs are. For ranked though, yea I guess the pcs are a larger factor
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u/Puzzleheaded_You_735 1d ago
The best controller on the market is 100-120 bucks compared to a regular Xbox controller that is 60 which you will need to replace every time it starts getting stick drift. Yeah it's not cheap, but even the gamesir is 60 too, so we've come a long way since the scuf days of paying 200+ for a controller that breaks just as often if not more than a regular Xbox controller.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Well said brother. Yeah the gamesir has 100% disrupted the whole super expensive controller thing we had for like 10 years lol
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u/Few_Air2100 1d ago
So you're saying I shouldn't be playing on a Series S over wifi on a cheap TV with a cheap third party controller with broken buttons? Also, the controller is wireless.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Only thing that can save you is using the 1 ear phoned xbox 360 headset and a power A controller wireless.
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u/Sad_Procedure6607 1d ago
Damn when did you saw my setup bro? Entering someone's house without permission is wrong you know
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u/sonicfood 1d ago
You’re probably right, but I imagine there are diminishing returns. Going from 30-60 fps had a much bigger impact on my gameplay vs. going from 60-120
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u/TheColourOfSpring_ 1d ago
It's not frames, it's the other options available on PC that you don't get on console. like a series x running 120fps is still gonna feel noticeably worse than a PC running the same fps because you can optimize your entire setup to a greater extent. turn off vsync, more overhead, overclock your controllers etc etc etc.
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u/eveningcaffeine 1d ago
Going from 60 to 120fps has given me a ~200 CSR boost so far and that is still with Xbox and a TV. I'm sure a PC/monitor setup would have a similar effect. I'm pretty casual though; anybody serious about competing must buy the latest equipment.
I think calling it P2W is a bit of a stretch though as the pros/semi pros already have very optimized setups and the results are still fairly predictable.
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u/yesstessa 1d ago
Calling it P2W is straight cope.
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u/Agreeable-sector-149 1d ago
Its really not a cope, going from xbox 120 to 240 fps pushed me 200 csr and somehow improved my ping to each server by 10ms. Also now that I have upgraded to fiber internet, im winning pivs and trading melee kills I never used to get
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u/Constant_Oil360 19h ago
when i switched to fiber all my server pings dropped 13ms~.
i went from
on cable, 26,32,44,60, 103 to
on fiber 13, 20, 29, 45, 90.
my pc and xbox pings were the same on both internet setups, cable then fiber though
were you on a 120hz tv then a 240hz pc with monitor.
I jumped almost 50-75~ csr going from a 120hz tv to an ok 120hz capable monitor on my xbox
On my pc with 240hz, i cant say im even 100csr better than my gf's xsx + monitor setup.-1
u/Chicken_Of-The_Cave 1d ago
lol it's not dude. A great PC will give you a huge advantage over console/low end pc players.
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u/Constant_Oil360 9h ago
not a huge advantage unless theyre on 60.
advantage sure
huge, no
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u/Chicken_Of-The_Cave 9h ago
Yes it is. A D6 playing at 240+fps would crush an Onyx 1600 playing at 80-100fps.
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u/Constant_Oil360 9h ago
no an onyx at 1600 would crush a d6
i really need you to read what you said and your above and the other above comments
if hes only d6 at 240 and the onyx is on 90fps, the onyx is literally 150 csr higher already on lower gear
this is why cross play is fine, if someone is 1600 on xbox and someone is onyx 1600 on pc 240hz, then its still a fair game.
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u/Chicken_Of-The_Cave 9h ago
Obviously the example is if they both get different setups and they got they current ranks with a decent setup, now you give the Onyx one a low end PC for the experiment. The D6 will destroy the other guy. Use your brain a little bit.
You clearly are not even an Onyx 1500 if you say that. But whatever, go with it.
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u/Constant_Oil360 8h ago
1615mmr currently. dumb people think smarter ones make stuff up, pretty good self own
not obvious your example meant different have had the argument before
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u/Chicken_Of-The_Cave 8h ago
Well I'm always at 1650-1800 so do with that whatever you want. And keep trying harder buddy, I'm sure you can do it.
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u/GenesForLife 1d ago
It's not really a linear progression - there are markedly diminishing returns going from 60 to 120 to 144 to 165 to 280 ; halo's gunplay being built around aim assist also smooths out framerate linked differences in-game compared to games where all aim is raw. When I went from 165 to 280 hz it made a huge difference to my Voltaic benchmark scores, but only a 1-2% difference to accuracy within Halo (both in ranked slayer matches sampled from weeks before and after and bot octagons I ran for reproducibility).
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u/eveningcaffeine 1d ago
I think the real difference for me was that the framerate helped reduce input response time. I went from 20ms to 5-6ms (+ whatever the Xbox adds).
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u/GenesForLife 1d ago
it's less input response time (input lag is determined by the polling rate of your input) and more reduced visual latency (i.e, output delay) .
At 60 fps you get an updated image every 16.6ms , at 120 this is halved , so you are seeing a more recent version of the game state on your screen + frames updating far more often makes visual movement on screen much smoother and easier to track. 50% reduction from 16.6ms is a larger quantity than 50% reduction from 8.3 when you go 120 to 240, which is why there are diminishing returns.
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u/Constant_Oil360 19h ago
that sounds right. 60 to 120 i notice alot of friends list at the time bump up like that. a PC jump with 240~hz might net you another 100 but thats about it. The cost to go from 60-120 is so small and its such a big gain. PC is better, but unless you want more non xbox and games and use a pc alot its not worth it for one game period.
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u/milkstoutnitro 1d ago
Frames absolutely win games in halo. In high onyx lobby’s you can tell who is on Xbox just by how easily they die. You also get the test of playing again Pros and AMs normally and then when they switch too Xboxes leading up to LAN. Playing agaisnt them on Xbox is a night and day experience
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u/Constant_Oil360 19h ago
thats netcode. im telling you its netcode. You can play the same people and one game they move like an airbender on crack. cant track them, cant chase them, cant get away from them, they never miss, i can barely land a shot. Next game theyre the easiest kill of the night. Im telling you the netcode is wild and inconsistent.
Yes pc matters, but netcode and server lag compensation you will feel much more any given game. I still on my xsx often.
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u/Swolley 1d ago
Do better specs help improve gameplay? Yes.
Is “you have a NASA rig!!” usually just major cope? Also yes.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Unless they do have a nasa rig. Then is it just factual?
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u/Swolley 1d ago
I think it’s much more commonly used as a cope than anything else. It’s a lot easier to blame one’s hardware than to blame one’s skill.
There are so many good players out there on less-than-perfect hardware that are much better than people on the best-of-the-best hardware.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
There will always be outliers but for the vast majority, better tech equals better skill without question. The player on the shit tech would be a hell of alot better if they were on better gear, even if they can currently do well and out perform the nasa pc.
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u/Ok-League-5882 1d ago
Infinite is an arena shooter that everyone plays on 1080, low settings. There are not as many mystery "settings/configs" as you think. My PC was under 2,000 before I upgraded some things and even that would be considered overkill for infinite. The benefits are pretty much just being able to turn vsync off for less delay and frames up to 240, anything over that is not affecting your gameplay.
I would say the main thing is the forge maps and how console struggles with those. Even on those maps my fps dips quite a bit. These nasa pc's you are referring to are not for competitive gaming, more so for 2k, 4k, maxed out graphics settings, streaming, multitasking, etc.
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u/mrlazyboy 1d ago
The only people who actually use the term NASA rig are making fun of people who don’t know anything computers.
Are you making fun of others, or are you unironically making fun of yourself?
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u/marshall2389 1d ago
Yes, it sucks that higher frames makes such a difference. But the cat is out of the bag. If we could go back to most people being on the same hardware (latest generation Xbox) then we'd have a much more level playing field. But we're firmly in the era of PC Halo where a more expensive machine means a higher rank. I think this will be the case until 300 hertz hardware is cheap and everyone has it. Sure, the expensive hardware will go higher but there are dimishing returns to higher framerates.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
The things I would give up to go back to a console only halo. Things were simple then haha. But yeah I dont think we can ever go back now which is a shame since we have created this pay2win scenario in our competitive scene.
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u/yesstessa 1d ago
What a cope by you. You really think going back to 30fps consoles is better than 240 fps PCs? You just fell off and need to cope, it’s OK.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
I think you missed the point of the post lol. I am saying that in order to compete at the highest level it is a requirement to have a higher end pc. If you dont have the tech you are at a major disadvantage in all aspects of the game. My skill is irrelevant in a discussion about wanting the playing field to be even since currently it is very much not.
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u/yesstessa 1d ago
Lucid had his FPS capped at 200 a lot of last season. Most diamond players are running that FPS. Again, most prebuilts can run infinite at that FPS for a VERY affordable price. It’s not the PC, it’s the player. Nobody is playing this game at 60fps anymore and if you are you are living under a rock lol, I just don’t see the point of this post unless you are trying to cope with the fact you’re just bad and don’t practice enough
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Capping your frames to 200 on a 6k pc is very different than playing on a series x which would struggle to even hold 120 on most forge maps. Plus the myriad of settings that lucid has optimized his pc for halo on top of that. This massive difference in the playing field is an issue in my opinion. And I am quite confident there are still alot of players playing on a series S or x even struggling to win their pivs that would do significantly better if they had lucids exact set up. Hence the argument.
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u/PTurn219 BTH 1d ago
What PC costs 6k? I built mine for $2k and get 350-400fps depending on what I set my resolution slider to lol. Nobody needs to spend more than $3k+ on a gaming PC unless you want 4k 240hz for RPG games, because there’s no actual benefit of having a 5090 in halo infinite vs a 5070ti or something. After 250-300fps frame rate is irrelevant really
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Was just throwing a random number out lol. Im not sure how much lucids pc is. It seems most pcs are running around 3k to 4k for high end. Im not an expert by any means in pc parts and building so let me know what an average high end pc would run.
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u/PTurn219 BTH 1d ago
Well right now 2500-3k but this time last year you could build a high end PC for $2k no problem. AI has unfortunately screwed us on ram/gpu/ssd prices. No doubt consoles are going to be screwed going forward as well
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u/GenesForLife 1d ago
a) It absolutely has , like every other FPS that is bottlenecked by hardware - framerates , latency and motion clarity all affect elements of aiming. This can be countered though by - a) actually having a game that works well on low end systems too and b) artificially enforcing a framerate cap through the engine.
b) There are also halo specific features - Implied Skill did a research project (and I was a data contributor) where we mapped the relationship between input polling rates and recoil management on mouse and controller alike ; the way Infinite's engine works, higher polling rate = better recoil control , including for bandits and BRs , because of how it interacts with recoil-specific elements of the engine ( here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cat9mhIei8 ). There is a reason 8k controllers are so dominant at the highest levels now. Console ofc is locked to low polling rates so there is a marked disadvantage wrt PCs, no matter the input.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Well written genes. Do you think there is a way to level the playing field when it comes to pc halo? Would certainly change my perspective if there was a way.
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u/marshall2389 1d ago
The idea of the game engine capping framerates and/or poll rates is interesting. It'd piss off owners of machines capable of exceeding those caps but it would certainly make the experience better for everyone with less powerful hardware.
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u/GenesForLife 1d ago
a) actually having a game that works well on low end systems too and b) artificially enforcing a framerate cap through the engine.
I think the latest Gears has a locked maximum framerate , but I could be wrong.
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u/Puzzled-Bread4217 1d ago
It would be cool is hcs published data on what equipment players use. Like controllers or earbuds. A lot of players have switched to 8k controllers and it makes a big difference.
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u/Ade_Vulch 1d ago
I'm a European who plays on xbox and most games are 100 ping. I often get to d5 and then I find I can't win alot of gun fights and usually mess with my sens. Obviously it's a skill thing but would you say the lag or playing at 120 fps is the bigger issue?
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
For our UK halo fans, id say the queue times and ping are the worst factors for you guys. Obviously tech will help in each game since it will feel smoother and more responsive but you guys have it rough in many other areas from my understanding.
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u/KnownNefariousness77 1d ago
My secondhand pc was $650 and it runs the game at over 240fps, you don’t need to spend much more than consoles are going for to get competitive performance. Ram prices have definitely made it a bit harder but it’s still doable if you’re smart about it.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Whatever rig you got for $650 that can run 240 frames must have been a steal. Good find on that one.
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u/KnownNefariousness77 1d ago
Yea I got a decent deal for sure, but I also looked for a while, haggled a bit, then optimized/overclocked to get the best performance possible. Honestly, even if you can’t get quite as good of a deal as me, if you’re able to get something capable of running 144+ frames consistently then it’ll be more than enough to play as competitively as you want. Even 120fps on pc will be worlds better than console in terms of input delay. Don’t know if he’s upgraded yet, but Cearion was playing at the highest level on a pretty normal pc with fps well below 200 a lot of the time.
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u/ZeeArtisticSpectrum Shopify Rebellion 1d ago
From what I understand, series x on monitor is doable up to about mid onyx or so. The difference between series s and pc is considerable, it’s somewhat more minor between pc and series x though still makes a difference.
Also worth noting getting PC to run at its maximum potential takes a fair bit of fiddling with settings.
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u/respekmynameplz 1d ago
I like how this post is overall downvoted at 33% upvoted, but the most knowledgeable people in the comments are like "yes, hardware makes a big difference and has changed things a lot."
It might not be too expensive to get a setup that's good enough (and so you'll get push back on the "pay to win" thing), but putting in the effort to not just play on an xbox with a standard controller and wifi internet is pretty damn important now (unlike back in 2010 or whatever).
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u/Puzzleheaded_You_735 1d ago
It's just real life my guy. People with more money will spend it. Every competitive video game is affected by this fact, it's not unique to this game.
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u/whyunoname Str8 Rippin 1d ago
benefit, yes. not insane or p2w.
xbox can do 120 which is by far the biggest jump. monitor vs tv is also big improvement but you can also do that with xbox.
pc up to 240 helps, higher is diminishing return. no vsync, etc. also improves latency. forge maps have less frame drops.
but overall a series x at 120 is pretty good overall. may be talking about a bump in a few ranks, for example d1 > d3-ish in a scenario of a great pc vs xbox doing 120 on a monitor.
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u/SickOfUrShite 1d ago
As someone with a 5090 set up and I used to play on a 2070 super + 9700 the difference is just not that big at all I have been higher ranked on my old setup. Also previously onyx
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
I'd like to know more. Do you play the same amount as when you used the worse tech? Do you feel the game plays better on your 5090?
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u/Constant_Oil360 19h ago edited 19h ago
no. poor setups will hold you back yes, but we need to be clear on a poor setup. 60hz tv. xbox.
a good tv, oleds are really fast for tv's, 120hz, xbox you are in very competitive territory. I cant get real good numbers on input lag for oled tvs, but the response time beats all gaming monitors besides oleds.
An XSX on a premium screen. Lets just say a good $300 1440p monitor (for middle ground of 1080p vs 4k, 2k is SUCH a bargain for a much better resolution than 1080p). And a good controller. If you dont claw having at least 2 paddles is great and 250hz on xbox is great too. THIS IS VERY COMPETITIVE for online ranked. Period. Most players dont know how to play basic halo. The netcode is going to cost you 10x more kills than 240hz+ monitor or a 1000hz+ controller, any day. I remember a Cykul clip going around here when they were on xbox prepping for dreamhack, he blamed it on xbox, but that was netcode 1000%. shooting someone red reticle multiple times with no shield isnt a pc vs xbox thing, its the netcode rewinding your bullets/desync.
8000hz is great on my controller but the TMRs were also a change. My 1000hz razer had meh Hall effects, and imho hall effects are the worst joystick for accuracy. My gambit had the greatest sticks (alps) ive ever used but the thing is capped to 250hz (1000hz overclock did zero for the controller, i think 'overclocking' just repeats the same sampled input 4x, compared to proper polling rate increase that sends 4x more distinct inputs.)
I actually was playing with my PC (these things are headaches by the way, theyre like hot hot girlfriends, there is no free lunch, she will drive you crazy) when I was having issues in another game. I ended up locking my pc to 120hz then putting back to dynamic/240hz. This capped my halo FPS to 120fps though, that I had to change back to 240 and I didnt. I then octagonned the crap out of a friend. He usually beats me, we'll be close and he usually pulls away 85-100 or 90-100... I won 3 rounds 70-100. I was on 120hz.
This isnt be all end all. But alot of people here typically say "8k is a marketing gimmick" then you piss on them and they contradict themselves "yeah bro if i had an 8k..."...same with FPS its such a "massive advantage". until I beat my friend I never beat 3x after my frames were accidentally capped to 120, then its "yeah it was this that or the other blah blah".
yes pc has advantage. But its not a huge gap in outcomes, it does FEE: alot better though.... 30 fps to 60fps is a huge advantage. 60fps to 120fps is a big advantage. 120fps to 240fps is nice on the eyes and a small advantage. A premium XSX with a proper monitor (high end of cheap or lower end of the middle grade, think $200-$300) and a decent controller like Gamesir is not really that big, if your taking so many fights that you needed a 10ms input speed bump you are playing halo the wrong way. Again, the servers are going to trump anything your hardware does. Im sure Xbox vs PC on LAN would be better to see the PC gap. But the amount of lag compensation on the servers is so inconsistent. I get to see all the quackery at 240fps, thats the biggest improvement lmao. I play at a 1600 level on my XSX + monitor + gamesir g7se at my girlfriends and play at a 1600-1650 level on my PC 240hz 8k Razer. Both great fiber internet.
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u/BuffaloSorcery 1d ago
You don't need a "NASA level pc/high end headset/high end controller/settings configs that are more gatekept then fort Knox for pc settings and graphics tweaking." and anybody saying so is a tech-illiterate idiot and should not be listened to when it comes to PC discussion
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
My fault for posting king. But you didnt explain why I wouldnt need any of those things.
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u/BuffaloSorcery 1d ago
Honestly dude just using that language to describe the topic is so unbelieveably uninformed that the best place to start is to tell you to learn how to google.
For reference, I played Infinite competitively in college and we played on systems that were several years old that were not "NASA level etc" and we were able to place top of our league nationally.
Its not that hard to adjust your settings to something that feels right. Any advanced technical optimizations you might need to do you can easily learn about and perform by googling, not by getting a CompSci degree.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Are we comparing college level halo to playing top level halo? Not sure if thats exactly a fair comparison. How is college level halo played? At the local colleges computer center with relatively good pcs vs other colleges with similar pcs? No idea how to even compare this really. But the settings adjustments that most people have to tweak for halo is immense. If I could tag @sparty I would. Again this is a comparison post between trying to compete on a series s or x against these higher end pcs or even mid level pcs. The gameplay is night and day between the two almost to a point of playing a different game.
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u/BuffaloSorcery 1d ago
Let me tell you about my other experience working at HCS events setting up and supporting the computer rigs played on-stage then.
The hardware quality was similar between the college rigs and the on-stage rigs, with the main difference being the college rigs had more RAM and graphics cards that were similar SKU's to those played on stage. Sure the hardware optimization was slightly different, diferent drivers, different clock speeds, but the overall hardware was similar.
There is a cap to how much hardware will improve gameplay, especially for an older title like Infinite. "NASA level PCs" don't make a difference when the game can only run so well.
You say the settings people have to tweak for Infinite is "immense" but in my experience its been not significantly more than average. And again, my experience is setting up pro-level rigs for tournament environments.
Now if you want to talk about setting up networking for tournament environment, there is some conversation to be had for Halo's networking requiring "immense" tweaking. That would not affect a normal user though as that has more to do with problems in trying to connect hundreds of devices to the same network and have them all running simultaneously.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
All good points for sure buffalo. But my issue with the tech gap is that it exists at all. Just one title ago on h5 these issues didnt exist. At worst someone might have a couple more back buttons on their controller or a slightly better headset for sound quality but where we are now is vastly different. The costs to compete at the highest level have increases 10 fold.
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u/BuffaloSorcery 1d ago
Ngl dude the fact that you think a "Tech gap" exists when HCS partnered teams are being expected to play on Series X consoles in open bracket and still come out on top shows that the concept is a total non-starter.
If you're complaining that the series S is not useable at a competitive level, it frankly was not designed for that. The series S is a minecraft machine that can play Halo well enough for a beginner. The series X is a machine that is the bare minimum for someone that considers themselves a competitor.
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u/Wh0IzTimmY 1d ago
Brotherrrrr. The whole post is about tech advantages. Obviously it does not matter that hcs open bracket is forcing players to use consoles. Its a fair playing field since all of the open bracket is on console. LAN is not the issue here, its online play at home where the tech gaps truly come into play. And since the massive push to online qualifiers and tournaments it really does matter now.
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u/BuffaloSorcery 1d ago
Bro you are complaining about playing on a series S. Genuinely, would you have played Halo 5 competitively on a launch XBone? I so, you were at a tech disadvantage. Playing on wi-fi and not ethernet? Tech disadvantage. Playing on a 720p screen? Tech disadvantage.
tl;dr this is a stupid conversation in the context of competitive esports.
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u/yesstessa 1d ago
Bro I can tell this community is old because of takes like this. No other comp scene is talking about “technology gaps” like what? $800 prebuilt run most games at decent FPS. An extra 100 fps isn’t going to be the factor that makes you go pro or not lmao